There's nothing in that battle that makes even the slightest sense. When you have a castle, you don't meet your enemy in the field. When you have a defensive position, you don't charge the enemy. When you have an army, you do not attack like rabble. It's fantasy inspired by Braveheart which is also fantasy.
That aside: Wrong forum.
Battle of Ostagar,Was Loghain retreat wise or not ? DEBATE
Débuté par
Gorkanus
, janv. 07 2014 07:11
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#27
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 11:18
Bfler
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In the third LotR movie, the Rohirrim, although hopelessly outnumbered, trample Sauron's army in front Minas Tirith down and only the giant Mûmakils are able to stop them.
It's fantasy, not reality, so everything is possible.
It's fantasy, not reality, so everything is possible.
#28
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 12:49
Augustei
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Bfler wrote...
In the third LotR movie, the Rohirrim, although hopelessly outnumbered, trample Sauron's army in front Minas Tirith down and only the giant Mûmakils are able to stop them.
It's fantasy, not reality, so everything is possible.
Yeah....Ok..
This guy... <_<
#29
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:01
Dave of Canada
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Bfler wrote...
In the third LotR movie, the Rohirrim, although hopelessly outnumbered, trample Sauron's army in front Minas Tirith down and only the giant Mûmakils are able to stop them.
It's fantasy, not reality, so everything is possible.
Tolkien wasn't trying to tell a grounded story, though.
#30
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:03
Shadow of Light Dragon
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And this is in the DA:I forum...why?
#31
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:16
Augustei
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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
And this is in the DA:I forum...why?
The Origins forums are dead, so why not?
#32
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:16
Fortlowe
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None of it was smart. Half of the army was lined up OUTSIDE the sodding siege wall. There was no calvary. They chose a cul de sac to make their stand. No traps. Not barricades. Nowhere to retreat to let alone call these reinforcements Loghain was leading from. Speaking of which, hus dumb ass could have avoided the whole thing by having a heart to heart with Duncan.
"The night before the battle, knock that fool king out with some sleeping poison in his wine. We trap the Hell out of the cul de sac, leave a token force behind to lure the spawn in, a battery of mages to cover the forces retreat, and horses to get them all out of there before they get overwhelmed. When the valley is full of spawn we bring the whole bridge down upon them. By the time he wakes up, Cailan will think the battle went as planned, we'be cut the rest of the realm off from the wilds, and we will have taken out plenty of the spawn without loosing a man."
"The night before the battle, knock that fool king out with some sleeping poison in his wine. We trap the Hell out of the cul de sac, leave a token force behind to lure the spawn in, a battery of mages to cover the forces retreat, and horses to get them all out of there before they get overwhelmed. When the valley is full of spawn we bring the whole bridge down upon them. By the time he wakes up, Cailan will think the battle went as planned, we'be cut the rest of the realm off from the wilds, and we will have taken out plenty of the spawn without loosing a man."
Modifié par Fortlowe, 07 janvier 2014 - 01:20 .
#33
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:27
Augustei
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Fortlowe wrote...
None of it was smart. Half of the army was lined up OUTSIDE the sodding siege wall. There was no calvary. They chose a cul de sac to make their stand. No traps. Not barricades. Nowhere to retreat to let alone call these reinforcements Loghain was leading from. Speaking of which, hus dumb ass could have avoided the whole thing by having a heart to heart with Duncan.
"The night before the battle, knock that fool king out with some sleeping poison in his wine. We trap the Hell out of the cul de sac, leave a token force behind to lure the spawn in, a battery of mages to cover the forces retreat, and horses to get them all out of there before they get overwhelmed. When the valley is full of spawn we bring the whole bridge down upon them. By the time he wakes up, Cailan will think the battle went as planned, we'be cut the rest of the realm off from the wilds, and we will have taken out plenty of the spawn without loosing a man."
You make the false assumption that Bioware's writers know anything of War & Millitary Strategy & Tactics so while that plan makes sense we got to work with what we've got here lol
#34
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:31
Kaiser Arian XVII
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I still wonder why they didn't camped in that over hill castle and didn't put a bait (50 soldiers) down there to draw the darkspawn into kinda trap and ambush? They could knock the crap out of Darkspawn Army!
I know why... I wasn't there!
I know why... I wasn't there!
#35
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:40
andy6915
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Fortlowe wrote...
None of it was smart. Half of the army was lined up OUTSIDE the sodding siege wall. There was no calvary. They chose a cul de sac to make their stand. No traps. Not barricades. Nowhere to retreat to let alone call these reinforcements Loghain was leading from. Speaking of which, hus dumb ass could have avoided the whole thing by having a heart to heart with Duncan.
"The night before the battle, knock that fool king out with some sleeping poison in his wine. We trap the Hell out of the cul de sac, leave a token force behind to lure the spawn in, a battery of mages to cover the forces retreat, and horses to get them all out of there before they get overwhelmed. When the valley is full of spawn we bring the whole bridge down upon them. By the time he wakes up, Cailan will think the battle went as planned, we'be cut the rest of the realm off from the wilds, and we will have taken out plenty of the spawn without loosing a man."
Now see, that is a strategy my dwarven noble and newly promoted general of dwarven armies (before the exile) would consider good. That is a tactic that even dwarven veterans would consider excellent. Instead we get a great example of how utterly freaking stupid and ignorant non-warden humans are about Darkspawn and how to combat them. If my dwarf had been leading that battle that night, it could have been won. But between morons like Loghain and Calian, or we got instead was a cluster f***. Never send a human general to do a dwarven general's job when it comes to Darkspawn...
Modifié par andy69156915, 07 janvier 2014 - 01:41 .
#36
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:45
Veruin
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Hey folks.
Monica's post in the other Loghain thread (2nd, 3rd of 4rth, don't know what to call it), has inspired me to attempt to illustrate the battle of Ostagar, how it was meant to be and how it ended up being.
This is what Monica posted:
So what I'll attempt to do is visualise it. Credit goes to Monica for the inspiration
I've started a game only to get to Ostagar (too bad I can't share screenies), and from what I have seen, in addition to screenshots from elsewhere, this is how I picture it:
Now naturally this is rough, I don't know the exact terrain. But it's essentially a valley and that's the main entrance into Ferelden proper from the Kocari Wilds, which is where the darkspawn are coming from. The Darkspawn are coming from the South, from the Wilds. Cailan's forces are in the passage. Loghain's forces are hiding behind trees, where they are supposed to wait for the darskpawn to go into the valley. That circle with an orange dot that looks like a ****** is the Tower of Ishal and the beacon.
Now this is how the battle should have looked like in theory and in Loghain's mind.
The darkspawn would be drawn into the narrow pass, where their numbers would effectively be neutralised. Cailan's forces would hold the line and signal the beacon when all the darkspawn are in the valley. Once the beacon is lit, Loghain would flank them.
The darkspawn would thus be trapped in the valley between two armies.
Perfect.
However, this is not what happened in practise and I'll argue that what did happen was not favorable for such a plan.
This is how I interpret how the battle looked like in reality.
The straight red darkspawn line above is supposed to represent the straight seemingly unending line of torches coming from the woods that is seen in the screenies above. This essentially confirms what David Gaider said. The darkspawn were much more numerous than expected. And as Mary Kirby said, though Loghain's vision of the battlefield was far from complete, he can still notice that.
The cross on the beacon symbolises the darkspawn attack there that most probably delayed the signal.
The cracking on Cailan's forces is supposed to represent the core army cracking under pressure.
While Loghain could not have precisely known that Cailan's army is on the verge of breaking down, his sense of timing regarding the beacon (shared by Duncan) and how it took too long to light can lead him to expect that the core army was probably breaking down. true enough, Duncan and Cailan die only a few minutes after the beacon was lit.
So had Loghain charged, this is probably what would have happened, or was a very strong possibility:
Loghain would have been sandwiched between the darkspawn. And Cailan's forces breaking down and in no shape to break through would have meant that Loghain was essentially isolated in a sea of darkspawn.
As such, the wisest course of action was, imo, retreat.
Now this is NOT in any way, shape or form, an attempt by me to say that the battle would have been lost as a fact. I can't know that. This is me rather attempting to understand how the battle transpired, taking an outside view of the battlefield. And how I believe it would have transpired had Loghain charged. Or at the very least, this was a strong possibility considering that the darkspawn were more numerous and that their lines extended well within the forest and those two are facts. And while Loghain does not share my outside view of the battle, he can still see that the darkspawn are more numerous and he can believe that Cailan's army was breaking down due to the beacon being lit late.
Feel free to correct me if I understood something wrong.
And thanks again to Monica!
Source/Credit http://social.biowar...308/blog/10285/
Monica's post in the other Loghain thread (2nd, 3rd of 4rth, don't know what to call it), has inspired me to attempt to illustrate the battle of Ostagar, how it was meant to be and how it ended up being.
This is what Monica posted:
Monica21 wrote...
Okay, this is crude, but I made a picture of what I think was happening at Ostagar:
Loghain's forces would have had to have been farther up the valley to
be in any position to flank, in addition to being in cover so the
darkspawn don't see them. From what we see of Ostagar both when we
arrive and during the battle, we see lots of trees. Trees hide vision.
When you're crossing the bridge, you see this:
Darkspawn are still entering the valley. Loghain is probably in
position to see the incoming darkspawn but too far to see the
battlefield.
Loghain knows the numbers of the king's forces, so
he can make a judgment based on his position to be able to see the
entering darkspawn. He may have even risked being sandwiched if the
darkspawn had still been entering the valley. Combine that with the late
beacon, and you have a very solid reason for retreat.
So what I'll attempt to do is visualise it. Credit goes to Monica for the inspiration
I've started a game only to get to Ostagar (too bad I can't share screenies), and from what I have seen, in addition to screenshots from elsewhere, this is how I picture it:
Now naturally this is rough, I don't know the exact terrain. But it's essentially a valley and that's the main entrance into Ferelden proper from the Kocari Wilds, which is where the darkspawn are coming from. The Darkspawn are coming from the South, from the Wilds. Cailan's forces are in the passage. Loghain's forces are hiding behind trees, where they are supposed to wait for the darskpawn to go into the valley. That circle with an orange dot that looks like a ****** is the Tower of Ishal and the beacon.
Now this is how the battle should have looked like in theory and in Loghain's mind.
The darkspawn would be drawn into the narrow pass, where their numbers would effectively be neutralised. Cailan's forces would hold the line and signal the beacon when all the darkspawn are in the valley. Once the beacon is lit, Loghain would flank them.
The darkspawn would thus be trapped in the valley between two armies.
Perfect.
However, this is not what happened in practise and I'll argue that what did happen was not favorable for such a plan.
This is how I interpret how the battle looked like in reality.
The straight red darkspawn line above is supposed to represent the straight seemingly unending line of torches coming from the woods that is seen in the screenies above. This essentially confirms what David Gaider said. The darkspawn were much more numerous than expected. And as Mary Kirby said, though Loghain's vision of the battlefield was far from complete, he can still notice that.
The cross on the beacon symbolises the darkspawn attack there that most probably delayed the signal.
The cracking on Cailan's forces is supposed to represent the core army cracking under pressure.
While Loghain could not have precisely known that Cailan's army is on the verge of breaking down, his sense of timing regarding the beacon (shared by Duncan) and how it took too long to light can lead him to expect that the core army was probably breaking down. true enough, Duncan and Cailan die only a few minutes after the beacon was lit.
So had Loghain charged, this is probably what would have happened, or was a very strong possibility:
Loghain would have been sandwiched between the darkspawn. And Cailan's forces breaking down and in no shape to break through would have meant that Loghain was essentially isolated in a sea of darkspawn.
As such, the wisest course of action was, imo, retreat.
Now this is NOT in any way, shape or form, an attempt by me to say that the battle would have been lost as a fact. I can't know that. This is me rather attempting to understand how the battle transpired, taking an outside view of the battlefield. And how I believe it would have transpired had Loghain charged. Or at the very least, this was a strong possibility considering that the darkspawn were more numerous and that their lines extended well within the forest and those two are facts. And while Loghain does not share my outside view of the battle, he can still see that the darkspawn are more numerous and he can believe that Cailan's army was breaking down due to the beacon being lit late.
Feel free to correct me if I understood something wrong.
And thanks again to Monica!
Source/Credit http://social.biowar...308/blog/10285/
#37
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 01:59
Kaiser Arian XVII
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@Veruin, thanks for analyzing. That's why their plan turned useless.
My plan was about hiding Cailan and Loghain armies in two sides of the bridge and putting a bait down the bridge. When the darkspawn reaches the bait, they first fall into the traps I've installed down there. Then both armies show up and use rocks, catapults and arrows and massacre many of them darkspawn forces. The secondary goal is to blockade the road so they can't continue that way.
If their number is so big, we could retreat easily. If not we could make another plan to invade them.
My plan was about hiding Cailan and Loghain armies in two sides of the bridge and putting a bait down the bridge. When the darkspawn reaches the bait, they first fall into the traps I've installed down there. Then both armies show up and use rocks, catapults and arrows and massacre many of them darkspawn forces. The secondary goal is to blockade the road so they can't continue that way.
If their number is so big, we could retreat easily. If not we could make another plan to invade them.
#38
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 02:04
Magdalena11
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I assume the purpose of this thread is to argue for Loghain's survival into DAI.
I've said before on another thread that whatever Cailan's fault was as a strategist, it was Loghain who came up with the strategy. Loghain tried to persuade Cailan not to go with the wardens. Loghain knew before the battle began that the wardens were going to be abandoned. He claimed to have men stationed in the tower and may not have. He may have intended to ignore their signal. Regardless of whether either of these is the case, I don't think he ever intended to follow through with the flanking charge.
Loghain said even after the larger-than-expected force arrived that he didn't think it was a true blight. He said he rejected the grey warden reinforcements because they would bring with them "four legions of chevaliers." The wardens themselves were probably mostly Orlesian. All he knew or cared about was that allowing Orlesians into Ferelden was a risk, especially considering their history. He hired an assassin and rounded up any remaining wardens he could get his hands on. Oswin says the wardens suffered the most under Loghain's rule. I think he fully intended to assassinate the wardens using the darkspawn as a weapon, so a discussion in retrospect about whether his withdrawal was wise is pretty pointless.
Loghain's actual plan worked. He accomplished what he set out to do even if he suffered losses that he regretted deeply.
In the game I am carrying over, Loghain is going to stay dead.
I've said before on another thread that whatever Cailan's fault was as a strategist, it was Loghain who came up with the strategy. Loghain tried to persuade Cailan not to go with the wardens. Loghain knew before the battle began that the wardens were going to be abandoned. He claimed to have men stationed in the tower and may not have. He may have intended to ignore their signal. Regardless of whether either of these is the case, I don't think he ever intended to follow through with the flanking charge.
Loghain said even after the larger-than-expected force arrived that he didn't think it was a true blight. He said he rejected the grey warden reinforcements because they would bring with them "four legions of chevaliers." The wardens themselves were probably mostly Orlesian. All he knew or cared about was that allowing Orlesians into Ferelden was a risk, especially considering their history. He hired an assassin and rounded up any remaining wardens he could get his hands on. Oswin says the wardens suffered the most under Loghain's rule. I think he fully intended to assassinate the wardens using the darkspawn as a weapon, so a discussion in retrospect about whether his withdrawal was wise is pretty pointless.
Loghain's actual plan worked. He accomplished what he set out to do even if he suffered losses that he regretted deeply.
In the game I am carrying over, Loghain is going to stay dead.
#39
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 02:05
Medhia Nox
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I don't believe the problem is that he retreated.
I believe the issue is that he retreated with the specific intentions of wiping out his opposition to rule.
A man not looking to destabilize Ferelden for his own means - would have engaged the enemy, expending precious resources, to save his king and then force a retreat.
His second does seem very shocked at his action - this suggests to me, that it is not so obviously lost - at least at that point. She clearly didn't know he was going to sound a retreat.
Retreating was wise - Loghain was the far superior general, but purposefully destabilizing Ferelden was a criminal act of treason against the state (and NOT practical).
I believe the issue is that he retreated with the specific intentions of wiping out his opposition to rule.
A man not looking to destabilize Ferelden for his own means - would have engaged the enemy, expending precious resources, to save his king and then force a retreat.
His second does seem very shocked at his action - this suggests to me, that it is not so obviously lost - at least at that point. She clearly didn't know he was going to sound a retreat.
Retreating was wise - Loghain was the far superior general, but purposefully destabilizing Ferelden was a criminal act of treason against the state (and NOT practical).
Modifié par Medhia Nox, 07 janvier 2014 - 02:06 .
#40
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 02:27
Joy Divison
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The folks who are saying that Loghain's decision to retreat was wise but his actions after the retreat were unwise have the right of it.
#41
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 03:22
Champion1
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So I have to voice a suspicion I've had since DAO: Loghain knew the Tower of Ishal would be taken and let it happen. He never planned to charge because by the time of the battle he was convinced Cailan would be Fereldan's doom, so he wanted him and the Gray Wardens to die. He had the tower sealed off until right before the battle so there would be no real updates, knowing it was vulnerable to invasion after finding the lower floors that had access points from the plains and the battlefield. He came up with the strategy to use the tower even knowing that, probably hoping that whoever went inside would be killed and the signal would never come, giving him the perfect reason for quitting the field. The only reason he hesitated to retreat was because the signal caught him by surprise and he had to think on his feet.
Modifié par Champion1, 07 janvier 2014 - 03:25 .
#42
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 06:30
Augustei
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Champion1 wrote...
So I have to voice a suspicion I've had
since DAO: Loghain knew the Tower of Ishal would be taken and let it
happen. He never planned to charge because by the time of the battle he
was convinced Cailan would be Fereldan's doom, so he wanted him and the
Gray Wardens to die. He had the tower sealed off until right before
the battle so there would be no real updates, knowing it was vulnerable
to invasion after finding the lower floors that had access points from
the plains and the battlefield. He came up with the strategy to use the
tower even knowing that, probably hoping that whoever went inside would
be killed and the signal would never come, giving him the perfect
reason for quitting the field. The only reason he hesitated to retreat
was because the signal caught him by surprise and he had to think on his
feet.
...Can't tell if trolling or not.
That would be true if one ignores all logic. Why would he destroy half his army just to kill 12 people? Destroy half his army while 20,000 Orlesian Chevaliers are crossing his borders and A large darkspawn army invading from the south. Cailan WAS Ferelden's doom btw but Loghain wouldn't be stupid enough to destroy half his army just to kill him.
Wow...I don't even... Just wowMagdalena11 wrote...
Loghain knew before the battle began that the wardens were going to be
abandoned. He claimed to have men stationed in the tower and may not
have. He may have intended to ignore their signal. Regardless of
whether either of these is the case, I don't think he ever intended to
follow through with the flanking charge.
I think he fully intended to assassinate the wardens using the
darkspawn as a weapon, so a discussion in retrospect about whether his
withdrawal was wise is pretty pointless.
First of all He did have men at the tower, you clearly see them dying while fighting the darkspawn after crossing the bridge + the mage and soldier that accompany you.
Secondly David Gaider has already confirmed that Loghain didn't plan to quit the field before the battle.
Modifié par XxDeonxX, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:31 .
#43
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 06:35
General TSAR
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Yep.
Calian was an idiot, he had a defensible location(however it could have had more barricades and pikes) but placed his army in the valley and still ordered a charge against the horde.
Loghain was wise to retreat and leave the dumb kid to his death.
Calian was an idiot, he had a defensible location(however it could have had more barricades and pikes) but placed his army in the valley and still ordered a charge against the horde.
Loghain was wise to retreat and leave the dumb kid to his death.
Modifié par General TSAR, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:37 .
#44
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 06:41
Nightdragon8
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yes but if the where to have killed the archdemon I think most of the darkspawn would have run away, and considering the archdemon was on the feild that day, logan's blocking force would have allowed duncan or Alsiter or the warden to kill the archdemon right there on the spot.
But then we wouldn't have a DA:O game to play now would we?
So its all down to plot of the story. So this disuction should be over.
But then we wouldn't have a DA:O game to play now would we?
So its all down to plot of the story. So this disuction should be over.
#45
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 06:43
Veruin
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Nightdragon8 wrote...
yes but if the where to have killed the archdemon I think most of the darkspawn would have run away, and considering the archdemon was on the feild that day,
Uhhhhh....no. Loghain specifically mentions that the Archdemon hasn't been sighted. In fact, no one knows where it is until the march on Denerim.
#46
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 06:43
General TSAR
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It was? I don't recall seeing it in action at Ostagar.Nightdragon8 wrote...
considering the archdemon was on the feild that day,
#47
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 06:44
BouncyFrag
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I just figured this was a quick and easy way to make Loghain a baddie. I also never saw the point of having the Warden climb up that tower to light the signal fire since we had no clue what was actually occurring on the battlefield. Determining the validity of Loghains strategy is pointless since the scene in Ostagar didn't make sense anyways.
#48
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 06:45
Sylvius the Mad
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The point of having the Warden climb the tower was to keep Alistair out of the battle.BouncyFrag wrote...
I just figured this was a quick and easy way to make Loghain a baddie. I also never saw the point of having the Warden climb up that tower to light the signal fire since we had no clue what was actually occurring on the battlefield. Determining the validity of Loghains strategy is pointless since the scene in Ostagar didn't make sense anyways.
To the OP's question, given Loghain's objective (to get Cailan killed), retreating made perfect sense.
#49
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 06:50
Jedi Master of Orion
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The problem is that Loghain's line of "Yes, Calian, a glorious moment for us all" seems blatantly obvious foreshadowing that he was going to abandon him and that took place before the battle.
#50
Posté 07 janvier 2014 - 07:07
Fetunche
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The Loghain apologists/ fanboys are never going to see him for what he really was, they are like those women who write to convicted murdrers 'he's not a bad person he's just misunderstood ' squee
