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[General TSAR]

Fetunche wrote...

The Loghain apologists/ fanboys are never going to see him for what he really was, they are like those women who write to convicted murdrers 'he's not a bad person he's just misunderstood ' squee

LOL

He saved his army while letting the dumb boy playing hero who also was flirting with the Orlesians die, good riddance.

Modifié par General TSAR, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:12 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Given what we know about him from The Stolen Throne, it seems likely that he thought he was acting in Ferelden's best interests.

[Veruin]

Fetunche wrote...

The Loghain apologists/ fanboys are never going to see him for what he really was, they are like those women who write to convicted murdrers 'he's not a bad person he's just misunderstood ' squee

Modifié par Veruin, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:17 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Well, seeing as Alistair/Teagan in DA2 worry about the very thing Loghain had worried would happen post-Ostagar....

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 janvier 2014 - 07:33 .

[Magdalena11]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...
Loghain knew before the battle began that the wardens were going to be
abandoned. He claimed to have men stationed in the tower and may not
have. He may have intended to ignore their signal. Regardless of
whether either of these is the case, I don't think he ever intended to
follow through with the flanking charge.

I think he fully intended to assassinate the wardens using the
darkspawn as a weapon, so a discussion in retrospect about whether his
withdrawal was wise is pretty pointless.

Wow...I don't even... Just wow

First of all He did have men at the tower, you clearly see them dying while fighting the darkspawn after crossing the bridge + the mage and soldier that accompany you.

Secondly David Gaider has already confirmed that Loghain didn't plan to quit the field before the battle.

There were soldiers at the tower, including getting eaten at the top of the tower.  Were there orders to light the beacon?  We'll never know.

If David Gaider did confirm that Loghain didn't have a pre-determined plan to quit the field (source?) I stand corrected.  Next time I play DAO I'll bear this in mind.

The impression I stated was the one my warden got and the reason she killed him herself for his perceived crime.  This is the world state I will be carrying over into DAI.

If the purpose of the discussion is not to discuss how Loghain's tactics affected the world state being carried over into DAI but to debate tactics in DAO it belongs in the DAO forum.  

Maybe if a similar situation arises with my inquisitor I'll be the one making the unpleasant call.

[drake heath]

Who cares? He betrayed his king, and doomed Ferelden, it doesn't matter if he was wise or not.

[General TSAR]

The "king" betrayed Ferelden by allowing in Orlesians and flirting with Orlesian Nobility.

[Aolbain]

Given the facts he had and didn't have, yes it was wise. He didn't know that Grey Wardens are absolutely necessary to defeat the blight, as far as he knew they were just specialists. He weren't going to throw away his nation and his army in a already failed battle.

[DarthSideus2]

http://t0.gstatic.co...8Opy3YnN7fD2BzA

[bEVEsthda]

Gorkanus wrote...
so what do you think, i think from tactical sense  i was right decision,plus the signal from tower comed too late for loghain army to be succesfull in relieving the alredy fighting part of the army

Nope. It wasn't wise. It cost him his life. Every time.

It also cost Ferelden dearly, since all those darkspawn who wasn't killed spilled out and reaped the countryside.

As for Loghain's army, wasn't that wasted in the ensuing civil war anyway?

[Karlone123]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Bfler wrote...

In the third LotR movie, the Rohirrim, although hopelessly outnumbered, trample Sauron's army in front Minas Tirith down and only the giant Mûmakils are able to stop them.

It's fantasy, not reality, so everything is possible.

Yeah....Ok..

This guy... <_<

That guy is right.

[JCAP]

I think Loghain made the right decision. But that doesn't mean we have to like him. (I hate him)

I just wonder what he would have done if he knew why the grey wardens are needed agains't the blights.

[Veruin]

JCAP wrote...

I think Loghain made the right decision. But that doesn't mean we have to like him. (I hate him)

I just wonder what he would have done if he knew why the grey wardens are needed agains't the blights.

Probably the same thing, but he would have accepted foreign/Orlesian warden help and just turned away the Orlesian army since Fereldan still had theirs.

[bEVEsthda]

I think we're supposed to make up our own minds about Loghain.

It's our Warden's story. There's no absolute truth. It can be both ways. The battleplan was conceived from the beginning with the purpose to have the King and the Grey Wardens massacred.

Or, the battleplan was miracelously, in a fantasy way, sound also for other purposes, like defeating the Darkspawn. Only, Loghain, the master tactician, suddenly understood that it would be better to use the army to start a civil war, than "waste" it against the darkspawn. ...Rrrright!

[Androme]

 Loghain is a brilliantly written character, as is DA:O as a whole, because we always see Loghain from a subjective point of view, we never see it from his PoV, or objectively. But when you try really hard and think about it for a while, the only thing Loghain did ''wrong'' was to ally himself with a complete dickface (Rendon Howe) and that he didn't think this was a Blight, all his other decisions were really sound ones. He valued rational thinking and the survival of Ferelden before defending the glory and honor of his idiotioc pompous ''king''. I always spare him and force Alistair marry and rule as King.

As for the retreat itself, it was a wise decision. We don't really even have to take a look at the retreat itself, just at the two characters involved:

Copied from Dragon Age Wiki:
''Born into occupied Ferelden, Loghain Mac Tir[/b] and King Maric Theirin drove out the Orlesian Empire more than thirty years before the events of the Fifth Blight.Loghain was raised to the position Teyrn of Gwaren for his service to King Maric. To Ferelden, he represents ideals of hard work and independence. After King Maric was lost at sea, Loghain became responsible for defending Ferelden and guiding his naïve and inexperienced son-in-law, King Cailan Theirin.''

He is experienced, he is cold and calculating, he is strong and cunning. Cailan is just stupid.

Modifié par Androme, 07 janvier 2014 - 08:52 .

[Androme]

General TSAR wrote...

The "king" betrayed Ferelden by allowing in Orlesians and flirting with Orlesian Nobility.

Also, this.

[bEVEsthda]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Given what we know about him from The Stolen Throne, it seems likely that he thought he was acting in Ferelden's best interests.

Oh, he did. Absolutely. They always do. They all do.

[bEVEsthda]

Androme wrote...
Copied from Dragon Age Wiki:
''Born into occupied Ferelden, Loghain Mac Tir[/b] and King Maric Theirin drove out the Orlesian Empire more than thirty years before the events of the Fifth Blight.Loghain was raised to the position Teyrn of Gwaren for his service to King Maric. To Ferelden, he represents ideals of hard work and independence. After King Maric was lost at sea, Loghain became responsible for defending Ferelden and guiding his naïve and inexperienced son-in-law, King Cailan Theirin.''

He is experienced, he is cold and calculating, he is strong and cunning.

But he is not wise.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

His retreat was completely correct.

Calin was a man child who thought the fight against the Darkspawn was a game that would make him a legend. Not only that but he actively chose to attack without the backup from Teagan because he didn't want to share the 'glory'. Even Duncan told him to wait for Grey Warden support but he refused. The man was a fool that got everyone in Ostagar killed. What was Loghain suppose to do get all of his men killed trying to save that fool? Then how would they combat the fight with virtually all their army destroyed.

If Loghain had attacked nothing would have changed except it would have been a complete massacre instead of a partial one.

[Hellion Rex]

Why is this even on the DAI board? I am confuzzled.

[AlanC9]

Magdalena11 wrote...

If David Gaider did confirm that Loghain didn't have a pre-determined plan to quit the field (source?) I stand corrected.  Next time I play DAO I'll bear this in mind.

I find it hard to reconcile this with Loghain's behavior in the pre-battle cutscene. Seriously, did anyone not think he was going to betray the king after seeing that? I was just happy that it was a little more subtle than NWN's Desther.

(Actually, Desther was more of a surprise -- he was so obviously the bad guy that I couldn't believe he really was the bad guy. Well played, Bioware.)

[Veruin]

Probably because the DA:O forums are pretty dead. You tend to get a couple of replies in.....a week. There's just no traffic there to have any sort of widespread discussion. Unless you want to do it with the same person, back and forth.

[AlanC9]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

His retreat was completely correct.

Calin was a man child who thought the fight against the Darkspawn was a game that would make him a legend. Not only that but he actively chose to attack without the backup from Teagan because he didn't want to share the 'glory'. Even Duncan told him to wait for Grey Warden support but he refused. The man was a fool that got everyone in Ostagar killed. What was Loghain suppose to do get all of his men killed trying to save that fool? Then how would they combat the fight with virtually all their army destroyed.

If Loghain had attacked nothing would have changed except it would have been a complete massacre instead of a partial one.

This would make a lot more sense if Loghain had actually told the king that he would be in danger of losing the battle if he fought it before the Redcliffe forces came up. Did he?

[Deflagratio]

I thought the objective of the Battle of Ostagar wasn't to wipe out the Dark Spawn entirely, but only lure out, and slay the Archdemon.

Questions of when, where and whether or not the Archdemon would have taken the field that day abound. Unless we assume Duncan was particularly stupid, we have to at least assume there was a good chance the plan could have succeeded.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

AlanC9 wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

His retreat was completely correct.

Calin was a man child who thought the fight against the Darkspawn was a game that would make him a legend. Not only that but he actively chose to attack without the backup from Teagan because he didn't want to share the 'glory'. Even Duncan told him to wait for Grey Warden support but he refused. The man was a fool that got everyone in Ostagar killed. What was Loghain suppose to do get all of his men killed trying to save that fool? Then how would they combat the fight with virtually all their army destroyed.

If Loghain had attacked nothing would have changed except it would have been a complete massacre instead of a partial one.

This would make a lot more sense if Loghain had actually told the king that he would be in danger of losing the battle if he fought it before the Redcliffe forces came up. Did he?

Duncan certainly told him directly to his face and he said no. Besides are you trying to tell me that Calin needed to be told that fighting without waiting for reinforcements against an enemy that historically has required multiple nations in order to defeat is dangerous? Calin thought he was playing a game, he was going to be fighting basically all alone with one Grey Warden to 'Stop the Blight here."

Even when the leader of the Grey Wardens tells him to wait for back up he says no. Calin was a fool and got all of his men and woman killed for no reason.