308 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaison1986]

I don't blame Loghain for Ostagar, RTO confirmed it was an lost battle and Loghain would have just thrown his men to their deaths. Neither for Redcliffe or the Circle. In Redcliffe, he merely gave Eamon an poison that left him comatose, Loghain didn't actually wanted him dead. It all went to hell because of an combination of Isolde and Connor foolish actions. In the Circle, it was ironically all Wynne fault, because, had she not revealed Uldred actions, he wouldn't have been pressed by the other mages, and thus likely wouldn't become an abomination and destroyed the entire place.

What I blame him is for allying himself with people like Howe, who murdered the human noble family, sold elves into slavery and tortured political prisioners. That is something much harder to overlook. So in the end it's up to the player to judge if he deserves to die for that or not.

[bEVEsthda]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Secondly David Gaider has already confirmed that Loghain didn't plan to quit the field before the battle.

The way I remember it, that's not exactly what he said. He said that Loghain made the decision, right there, when the signal lit up, to leave the field.

That can mean many things. I still maintain that we're supposed to make our own truth about this. There is no right truth and wrong truth.

That he made the final decision right then, doesn't mean that it wasn't something he hadn't planned.
Further, the decision itself may have been forced by the signal. It would look real strange, wouldn't it, if the signal came, and then he'd just stand there, passively, watching the Wardens be massacred.
He may have expected to never see the signal. He may have planned that there was not to be any signal. That way, his back would be clear.
Why would he not expect the signal? Because much, much earlier, a loyal group of his men had opened a back undergound passage into the tower. One that the Darkspawn would find and use.

[bEVEsthda]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
This would make a lot more sense if Loghain had actually told the king that he would be in danger of losing the battle if he fought it before the Redcliffe forces came up. Did he?

Duncan certainly told him directly to his face and he said no. Besides are you trying to tell me that Calin needed to be told that fighting without waiting for reinforcements against an enemy that historically has required multiple nations in order to defeat is dangerous? Calin thought he was playing a game, he was going to be fighting basically all alone with one Grey Warden to 'Stop the Blight here."

Even when the leader of the Grey Wardens tells him to wait for back up he says no. Calin was a fool and got all of his men and woman killed for no reason.

Whaddaya mean "even"?  Duncan was the only one that told him. Yes, Calin was a fool. He had always been a fool. And who knows this? Who has always known this? And who stands there, silent, watching? Loghain was supposed to guide Calin. That was one of his two main jobs. Maybe he did "guide" Calin?

Any truth works. You'll not find any straight, clear evidence for any interpretation.

[AlanC9]

Right. It isn't that Loghain failed to warn Cailan. It's that he never tried.

[Martyr1777]

The battle was a lost cause, so a retreat was smart.

However... When you compare Loghain's personality from Stolen Throne and DAO it seems like a broken story to me where the prequal breaks what already exists. Point being in Stolen Throne Loghain never backed down from any stand point if he wanted to fight he made whoever fight, if he wanted to run they ran.

So even if you think he wanted Cailan dead he wouldn't risk half the army when he knew he would need the troops regardless. So why does he back down this ONE AND ONLY time?

Stolen Throne Loghain is the man/general/warrio that broke the mold.
DAO Loghain is a rat barely higher than Howe.

[Eurypterid]

Considering how he fared in my runs through DA:O... no, it wasn't a wise decision on his part.

[Augustei]

Androme wrote...
But when you try really hard and think about it for a while, the only thing Loghain did ''wrong'' was to ally himself with a complete dickface (Rendon Howe) and that he didn't think

I don't think this was a mistake or something he did wrong. Howe controlled esentially the entire north and thus had a stranglehold on commerce and the capital.. Things would have been messy had he not allied with howe. I think his only real mistake was declaring himself Regeant

[dragonflight288]

I feel that the moment Loghain made the decision to retreat, it was the best move to make at the time. I also feel like we should note that Loghain had been protesting near constantly about Cailan being on the front lines, repeatedly telling him it was too dangerous for the King to be there. Heck, even Alistair says, if you talk to him after meeting him but before rejoining Duncan and Daveth/Jory that we should be looking to Loghain since he strategized all the battles up to that point and they won, and he felt Cailan was only in it for the glory, to make his mark on history.

And after Loghain ordered the retreat, we get a sky-view of the battlefield for a brief moment, and the darkspawn are still pouring out of the wilds.

I genuinely feel Ostagar was ultimately a battle that could not be won.

And it doesn't help that Cailan ordered his men to charge the darkspawn and leave their highly defensible location (a bottleneck.) When you cross the bridge to go to the Tower of Ishal, if you look down, you'll see that they're surrounded on three sides. Add in that the darkspawn had tunneled and taken the Tower of Ishal, Cailan, his men and the Wardens were actually surrounded on all sides.

By leaving that bottleneck to charge the darkspawn, the battle was almost doomed to be lost because of that single stupid mistake. Kind of like a game of chess. The winner isn't usually the one with the best strategy but the one who makes the fewest mistakes and capitalizes most upon his opponents.

[filetemo]

It would have been wise if he planned to counter attack. Instead he presumably saved forces to defend against the real invasion: Orlais.

Turns out he was wrong.

[Dorrieb]

The battle may have been a lost cause... but Loghain deliberately set it up that way. If it had looked like the line was holding he might have followed the original plan and charged in, and he would have not betrayed the troops until the *next* battle, but he meant to do it sooner or later. This was just the perfect opportunity to get rid of the king while plausibly blaming it on his own foolishness, and the lives of a few thousand people were an acceptable price to pay.

[Angrywolves]

There was a thread months ago about this issue.

Some players seem to think numbers trump all else and because of numbers the darkspawn would have won and that Loghain was wise to retreat.
Loghain didn't retreat because he was outnumbered, he retreated because he wanted Cailen dead.

History is full of cases where the smaller military force beat a larger force.

[HiroVoid]

The original script where Cailan was going to abandon Anora for Celene still seemed to be the plan in the battle of Ostagar. That's why it looks like Loghain intentionally planned and abandoned Cailan along with other elements. Since the script changed and Loghian's motivation for killing Cailan was gone, he no longer had the motivation to do so, so the final case is that he simply saw the battle as unwinnable and retreated. He was a terrible politician afterwards though and had more than his share of crap he did with the elven enslavement being the most obvious.

[dragonflight288]

Dorrieb wrote...

The battle may have been a lost cause... but Loghain deliberately set it up that way. If it had looked like the line was holding he might have followed the original plan and charged in, and he would have not betrayed the troops until the *next* battle, but he meant to do it sooner or later. This was just the perfect opportunity to get rid of the king while plausibly blaming it on his own foolishness, and the lives of a few thousand people were an acceptable price to pay.

I disagree. Loghain didn't set it up that way at all. There are a lot of contributing factors and it cannot all be blamed on one man.

Yes, Loghain planned the strategy, but Cailan chose to disregard a lot of what he said.

Add in that Uldred tried to point out that the beacon was completely unnecessary and that a mage could give a signale instead without putting any lives at risk, but before he could finish his sentence the Grand Cleric shut him up hard, saying they wouldn't trust any lives to a mage.

Cailan disregarded Duncan mentioned Eamon could send reinforcements in less than a week, and simply said Eamon wanted in on the glory as if that was the end of it.

Add in that Loghain was saying constantly that Cailan should attend to reality and not put all his hopes in stories and legends, and that the front line was too dangerous for the king to fight, and Cailan disregarded it completely.

And it was Cailan who chose to charge out into the open and got himself surrounded on all sides.

Not to mention all the darkspawn numbers, their tunneling and taking the tower, and surrounding them on all sides.

It was simply a battle that could not be won, and many of the problems of that battle were not the result of maliciousness of Loghain, but the idiocy of Cailan.

Most of the problems AFTER the battle however, many of them fall on Loghain's shoulders. But the battle itself, I think Loghain was wise to retreat. I know if I was the general in charge, I would've done the same thing. I would've been far more tactful at the Landsmeet in callling for more soldiers than simply demand the bannorn supply more soldiers, but strategy wise, I would make the same decision.

[andy6915]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Most of the problems AFTER the battle however, many of them fall on Loghain's shoulders. But the battle itself, I think Loghain was wise to retreat. I know if I was the general in charge, I would've done the same thing. I would've been far more tactful at the Landsmeet in callling for more soldiers than simply demand the bannorn supply more soldiers, but strategy wise, I would make the same decision.

Indeed. He was smart to retreat, it's the only reason the Blight didn't win. Had he tried and almost certainly failed to flank the Darkspawn,one of the nation's biggest armies would have been dead right then and there.

Yet all the crap he did afterward just made things worse and made things easier for the Darkspawn and Archdemon.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Well, seeing as Alistair/Teagan in DA2 worry about the very thing Loghain had worried would happen post-Ostagar....

Well it's a little different. Loghain was worried the Empress was plotting to take over Ferelden. Allistair is worried that Orlais is destabalizing and elements of the nobility would want to attack Ferelden inspite of the Empress.

[jamesp81]

Adanu wrote...

Until we know exact numbers on both sides, any debate is pointless.

Indeed.

[Ailith Tycane]

 Taking his overall goal for retreating into consideration, and the fact that he didn't achieve it (because I cut his head off,) no, it wasn't very wise.

[Aaleel]

If it were the wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on their heads. His actions after the decision answer this question pretty simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was not the only thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.

Modifié par Aaleel, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:07 .

[Ailith Tycane]

Aaleel wrote...

If it were the wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on their heads. His actions after the decision answer this question pretty simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was the only thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.

I'm pretty sure that his blaming the Wardens for Ostagar was premeditated. It's WHY he retreated, it was planned, he wanted to prevent the Wardens from having any control/power over fighting the blight, because he knew they would encourage an alliance with Orlais (which Cailan already had, which Loghain probably knew about, and is probably why he didn't feel too bad about killing him.)

[In Exile]

The initial battleplan was really stupid. But even if Loghain had the best intentions at heart, retreat was the right option. It was his incompetence in part that led to half the army dying, but once he was in that situation, he made the right choice and saved as much of the army as he could.

What makes Loghain an obvious traitor is every single thing that he does afterward.

[Aaleel]

Ailith430 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

If it were the wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on their heads. His actions after the decision answer this question pretty simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was the only thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.

I'm pretty sure that his blaming the Wardens for Ostagar was premeditated. It's WHY he retreated, it was planned, he wanted to prevent the Wardens from having any control/power over fighting the blight, because he knew they would encourage an alliance with Orlais (which Cailan already had, which Loghain probably knew about, and is probably why he didn't feel too bad about killing him.)

That's what I was saying pretty much.  I meant to say whether or not the battle was winnable "WAS NOT" the only thing he weighed, bad typo.

[Angrywolves]

"That can mean many things. I still maintain that we're supposed to make our own truth about this. There is no right truth and wrong truth.
'

Truer words have never been spoke.

The players that like Loghain, want him to be in DAI as a warden or something will says he had no choice but to retreat.

Players who hate Loghain, I am among those, say he betrayed Ferelden and his king.

[LPPrince]

Ailith430 wrote...

(which Cailan already had, which Loghain probably knew about, and is probably why he didn't feel too bad about killing him.)

if you mean the Cailan/Celene thing, he didn't learn of it until he comes across the private letters in Return To Ostagar.

[Master Warder Z_]

 Having debated this is in a few threads prior i will merely state what i always do.

Loghain was wise to pull back and not fight a losing battle; He saved the majority of the Army because of his actions and while perhaps his duty was to his king he also had a duty to his Nation to protect it from both the threat of foreign incursion and the darkspawn.

Preserving the Nation's Military Strength at the cost of its king and the gray wardens was a costly move but a needed one never the less.

[Aaleel]

Angrywolves wrote...

"That can mean many things. I still maintain that we're supposed to make our own truth about this. There is no right truth and wrong truth.
'

Truer words have never been spoke.

The players that like Loghain, want him to be in DAI as a warden or something will says he had no choice but to retreat.

Players who hate Loghain, I am among those, say he betrayed Ferelden and his king.

Even if one thinks the decision at Ostagar was right how does one defend the actions afterwards?  Attempted assassination, slave trading, blaming the Wardens, etc.  He died in every on of my countless playthroughs for this not the Ostagar