In Exile wrote...
The initial battleplan was really stupid. But even if Loghain had the best intentions at heart, retreat was the right option. It was his incompetence in part that led to half the army dying, but once he was in that situation, he made the right choice and saved as much of the army as he could.
What makes Loghain an obvious traitor is every single thing that he does afterward.
Master Warder Z wrote...
Loghain was wise to pull back and not fight a losing battle; He saved the majority of the Army because of his actions and while perhaps his duty was to his king he also had a duty to his Nation to protect it from both the threat of foreign incursion and the darkspawn.
Preserving the Nation's Military Strength at the cost of its king and the gray wardens was a costly move but a needed one never the less.
Modifié par LPPrince, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:27 .
I kill him every single time, but I think he made the right call retreating. The boy king was a fool and died because of that.Angrywolves wrote...
"That can mean many things. I still maintain that we're supposed to make our own truth about this. There is no right truth and wrong truth.
'
Truer words have never been spoke.
The players that like Loghain, want him to be in DAI as a warden or something will says he had no choice but to retreat.
Players who hate Loghain, I am among those, say he betrayed Ferelden and his king.
Aaleel wrote...
Even if one thinks the decision at Ostagar was right how does one defend the actions afterwards? Attempted assassination, slave trading, blaming the Wardens, etc. He died in every on of my countless playthroughs for this not the Ostagar
bEVEsthda wrote...
ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
This would make a lot more sense if Loghain had actually told the king that he would be in danger of losing the battle if he fought it before the Redcliffe forces came up. Did he?
Duncan certainly told him directly to his face and he said no. Besides are you trying to tell me that Calin needed to be told that fighting without waiting for reinforcements against an enemy that historically has required multiple nations in order to defeat is dangerous? Calin thought he was playing a game, he was going to be fighting basically all alone with one Grey Warden to 'Stop the Blight here."
Even when the leader of the Grey Wardens tells him to wait for back up he says no. Calin was a fool and got all of his men and woman killed for no reason.
Whaddaya mean "even"? Duncan was the only one that told him. Yes, Calin was a fool. He had always been a fool. And who knows this? Who has always known this? And who stands there, silent, watching? Loghain was supposed to guide Calin. That was one of his two main jobs. Maybe he did "guide" Calin?
Any truth works. You'll not find any straight, clear evidence for any interpretation.
Modifié par LPPrince, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:35 .
LPPrince wrote...
Master Warder Z wrote...
Loghain was wise to pull back and not fight a losing battle; He saved the majority of the Army because of his actions and while perhaps his duty was to his king he also had a duty to his Nation to protect it from both the threat of foreign incursion and the darkspawn.
Preserving the Nation's Military Strength at the cost of its king and the gray wardens was a costly move but a needed one never the less.
Reminds me of A Song of Ice and Fire's Jaime Lannister's speech about vows and how they are impossible to keep without breaking another.
Vows
Hell of a performance of it in Game of Thrones
ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
The truth is he tried to convince Calin not to commit to the battle, then he tried to convince him not to be in the fight himself, then once Calin refused every offer of reason Loghain chose not to sacrifice his entire army in a battle he could never win. People who wanted Loghain to stay are people who wanted him and his soilders to die for absolutely nothing, that is the truth because nothing Loghain did could have changed what happened.
Angrywolves wrote...
Some players seem to think numbers trump all else and because of numbers the darkspawn would have won and that Loghain was wise to retreat.
Loghain didn't retreat because he was outnumbered, he retreated because he wanted Cailen dead.
History is full of cases where the smaller military force beat a larger force.
Modifié par LPPrince, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:44 .
Banxey2 wrote...
he had already started to manoeuvre into position to take power from Cailan when he let Howe massacre the Couslands.
Banxey2 wrote...
snip
Banxey2 wrote...
Angrywolves wrote...
Some players seem to think numbers trump all else and because of numbers the darkspawn would have won and that Loghain was wise to retreat.
Loghain didn't retreat because he was outnumbered, he retreated because he wanted Cailen dead.
History is full of cases where the smaller military force beat a larger force.
Exactly. Loghain was supposed to be a master tactician. If I remember correctly, he earned his place beside Maric for pulling off things that were supposed to be impossible in The Stolen Throne. Even though Cailan was a bit on the derpy side, I doubt he'd have planned the battle without Loghain, even if Loghain did so begrudgingly.
As far as Loghain deciding to quit the field in that moment, and not planning it beforehand, he had already started to manoeuvre into position to take power from Cailan when he let Howe massacre the Couslands. He was working to put Howe into a position where Howe would have the authority to back him. The only two Teryns in Ferelden at that time were Bryce Cousland and Loghain himself, and in Ferelden noble hierarchy they're second to royalty.
As far as Cailan betraying Ferelden by allying with Orlais, we don't really know enough about Celene or her motivations other than she has been good for her country. It's not as though Cailan was betraying Ferelden to the Emporer who conquered it.
And of course, Flemeth told Maric that Loghain would betray him. And I think she is a pretty good judge of character.
With all that said, I think they all probably would have died anyway. :-p
Modifié par General TSAR, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:06 .
LPPrince wrote...
Banxey2 wrote...
he had already started to manoeuvre into position to take power from Cailan when he let Howe massacre the Couslands.
False. Gaider said Loghain had no foreknowledge of what Howe planned to do at Highever, and was forced to ally with him because of the power Howe had available at the time. Had Loghain not sided with Howe, everyone would be in even more trouble. I'm not even sure Loghain liked Howe, but I never thought to ask Mr. Gaider about that.
Banxey2 wrote..
Well I never knew that. But what power did Howe really have other than his personal army? I suppose if Howe knew Loghain was scheming, he could use that against him.
Veruin wrote...
Howe is in control of Northern Fereldan and can put a complete stop to trade. He didn't have much choice but to ally with him. Howe assaulted the Couslands on his own, as he saw them getting glory that he thought he deserved.
bEVEsthda wrote...
Androme wrote...
Copied from Dragon Age Wiki:
''Born into occupied Ferelden, Loghain Mac Tir[/b] and King Maric Theirin drove out the Orlesian Empire more than thirty years before the events of the Fifth Blight.Loghain was raised to the position Teyrn of Gwaren for his service to King Maric. To Ferelden, he represents ideals of hard work and independence. After King Maric was lost at sea, Loghain became responsible for defending Ferelden and guiding his naïve and inexperienced son-in-law, King Cailan Theirin.''
He is experienced, he is cold and calculating, he is strong and cunning.
But he is not wise.
Modifié par Zu Long, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:07 .
Too bad he survived and joined the Grey WardensZu Long wrote...
I find people who defend Loghain's actions at Ostagar misinterpret a number of factors about the battle. The following factors are critical to coming to a correct conclusion about Loghain's actions-
1. Loghain couldn't see the battle from where he was. - People claim Loghain saw the odds and decided the battle couldn't be won. But the whole point of using the tower as a signal in the first place was that the ambush force couldn't see what was happening. We know the leadership of Ferelden was pessimistic about their chances at Ostagar behind closed doors, but Loghain had NO IDEA what the tactical situation of the battle was when he made the call to retreat.
2. Loghain is the only reason the Ferelden soldiers are so horribly outnumbered in the first place. It is Loghain who insisted Orlais not be allowed to become involved despite the fact the Ferelden troops were outmatched. While understandable based on his prior experiences with Orlais, if we consider tactics refusing aid doomed the Army at Ostagar.
3. In the face of a Blight, the only tactically relevant force is the Grey Wardens. Even IF the above two weren't true, the fact is leaving Ostagar rather than running to the aid of the Ferelden forces was tactically the wrong move. As had been demonstrated no less than FOUR times in Thedas' history, only a Grey Warden can end a blight. Loghain knew this, and the sheer number of darkspawn involved showed that this was, in fact, a Blight. That being the case, the Grey Wardens are the ONLY force that matters. The other soldiers are, at the end of the day, meatshields and nothing more. Springing the ambush and saving at least SOME of the Grey Wardens so that they could fight another day was the tactically correct choice. Without the Wardens, you're doomed no matter how many soldiers you have.
In summation, Loghain failed as a tactician, a servant to his king, and as a father to his son in law at Ostagar. He was completely blinded by his fear and hatred of Orlais. Such a monumental blunder and betrayal, by itself, would have mandated his execution. His further actions after seizing power only confirm how richly he deserved his fate.
Modifié par Steelcan, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:09 .
I don't begrudge the decision to either oneLPPrince wrote...
Master Warder Z wrote...
Loghain was wise to pull back and not fight a losing battle; He saved the majority of the Army because of his actions and while perhaps his duty was to his king he also had a duty to his Nation to protect it from both the threat of foreign incursion and the darkspawn.
Preserving the Nation's Military Strength at the cost of its king and the gray wardens was a costly move but a needed one never the less.
Reminds me of A Song of Ice and Fire's Jaime Lannister's speech about vows and how they are impossible to keep without breaking another.
Vows
Hell of a performance of it in Game of Thrones
Veruin wrote...
Banxey2 wrote...
snip
Howe is in control of Northern Fereldan and can put a complete stop to trade. He didn't have much choice but to ally with him. Howe assaulted the Couslands on his own, as he saw them getting glory that he thought he deserved.
We know Cailan is a puppet monarch. He's only there for the title and boons. Namely the wealth, food, and the ability to do whatever he wants. If he married Celene, she could control Fereldan through diplomacy, without the harsh penalties of calling a war.
Master Warder Z wrote...
Banxey2 wrote...
Exactly. Loghain was supposed to be a master tactician. If I remember correctly, he earned his place beside Maric for pulling off things that were supposed to be impossible in The Stolen Throne. Even though Cailan was a bit on the derpy side, I doubt he'd have planned the battle without Loghain, even if Loghain did so begrudgingly.
As far as Loghain deciding to quit the field in that moment, and not planning it beforehand, he had already started to manoeuvre into position to take power from Cailan when he let Howe massacre the Couslands. He was working to put Howe into a position where Howe would have the authority to back him. The only two Teryns in Ferelden at that time were Bryce Cousland and Loghain himself, and in Ferelden noble hierarchy they're second to royalty.
As far as Cailan betraying Ferelden by allying with Orlais, we don't really know enough about Celene or her motivations other than she has been good for her country. It's not as though Cailan was betraying Ferelden to the Emporer who conquered it.
And of course, Flemeth told Maric that Loghain would betray him. And I think she is a pretty good judge of character.
With all that said, I think they all probably would have died anyway. :-p
...If you Acknowledge Loghain was at least tactically savy to withdraw at the advance of the Horde then why do you consider a tactically valid move Betryayal?
Would it have been better to have the Army die along with their king? To have Loghain leap into the fray himself and give up his life for no purpose?
His actions after ostagar which i will not debate in this posts aside. His "Betrayal of Maric" was basically him slapping him and telling him to grow a pair and be a King. Spies, Repentant or not are still spies and even in our reality espianoge generally carries a death penalty with it.
Modifié par Banxey2, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:17 .
Zu Long wrote...
I find people who defend Loghain's actions at Ostagar misinterpret a number of factors about the battle. The following factors are critical to coming to a correct conclusion about Loghain's actions-
1. Loghain couldn't see the battle from where he was. - People claim Loghain saw the odds and decided the battle couldn't be one. But the whole point of using the tower as a signal in the first place was that the ambush force couldn't see what was happening. We know the leadership of Ferelden was pessimistic about their chances at Ostagar behind closed doors, but Loghain had NO IDEA what the tactical situation of the battle was when he made the call to retreat.
2. Loghain is the only reason the Ferelden soldiers are so horribly outnumbered in the first place. It is Loghain who insisted Orlais not be allowed to become involved despite the fact the Ferelden troops were outmatched. While understandable based on his prior experiences with Orlais, if we consider tactics refusing aid doomed the Army at Ostagar.
3. In the face of a Blight, the only tactically relevant force is the Grey Wardens. Even IF the above two weren't true, the fact is leaving Ostagar rather than running to the aid of the Ferelden forces was tactically the wrong move. As had been demonstrated no less than FOUR times in Thedas' history, only a Grey Warden can end a blight. Loghain knew this, and the sheer number of darkspawn involved showed that this was, in fact, a Blight. That being the case, the Grey Wardens are the ONLY force that matters. The other soldiers are, at the end of the day, meatshields and nothing more. Springing the ambush and saving at least SOME of the Grey Wardens so that they could fight another day was the tactically correct choice. Without the Wardens, you're doomed no matter how many soldiers you have.
In summation, Loghain failed as a tactician, a servant to his king, and as a father to his son in law at Ostagar. He was completely blinded by his fear and hatred of Orlais. Such a monumental blunder and betrayal, by itself, would have mandated his execution. His further actions after seizing power only confirm how richly he deserved his fate.
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