308 réponses à ce sujet

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Personaly i see him as a Field mershal Hague type character. a pompous idiot responable for an atrocity more threw ego rather than malice.
Wether it was a good idea or not it led to a slaughter.

[LPPrince]

Zu Long wrote...

if we consider tactics refusing aid doomed the Army at Ostagar.

Cailan. Eamon's men. No reason beyond "sharing glory".

Loghain. Orlesian men. No reason beyond "history tells us what this will bring". Loghain's reasoning becomes solid with Return To Ostagar, but of course thats hindsight.

Zu Long wrote...

3. In the face of a Blight, the only tactically relevant force is the Grey Wardens. 

No one knew that at the time. What was known was that Grey Warden's were dedicated to facing the Blight. No one knew(barring high ranking Wardens themselves), that a Warden is actually a necessity to end a Blight.

[Steelcan]

Malanek999 wrote...

I think the story would have been much, much, better if Loghain had been able to see the battle and made the decision to retreat. It could have been ambiguous as to whether he was betraying Cailan or not. As it stood, no it wasn't wise. He made the commitment to fight and then didn't so Cailan would die. He couldn't see what was happening, it wasn't strategical.

Do you thinj it is ebtirely unreasonable tgat Loghain would have scouts out ahead of his forces hiding in ambush?  They could have reported the situation yo him

[General TSAR]

Exactly.

An experienced and battle-harden tactician with decades of experience would have scouts reporting new intelligence.

[Jaison1986]

Zu Long wrote...

I find people who defend Loghain's actions at Ostagar misinterpret a number of factors about the battle. The following factors are critical to coming to a correct conclusion about Loghain's actions-

1. Loghain couldn't see the battle from where he was. - People claim Loghain saw the odds and decided the battle couldn't be won. But the whole point of using the tower as a signal in the first place was that the ambush force couldn't see what was happening. We know the leadership of Ferelden was pessimistic about their chances at Ostagar behind closed doors, but Loghain had NO IDEA what the tactical situation of the battle was when he made the call to retreat.

2. Loghain is the only reason the Ferelden soldiers are so horribly outnumbered in the first place. It is Loghain who insisted Orlais not be allowed to become involved despite the fact the Ferelden troops were outmatched. While understandable based on his prior experiences with Orlais, if we consider tactics refusing aid doomed the Army at Ostagar.

3. In the face of a Blight, the only tactically relevant force is the Grey Wardens. Even IF the above two weren't true, the fact is leaving Ostagar rather than running to the aid of the Ferelden forces was tactically the wrong move. As had been demonstrated no less than FOUR times in Thedas' history, only a Grey Warden can end a blight. Loghain knew this, and the sheer number of darkspawn involved showed that this was, in fact, a Blight. That being the case, the Grey Wardens are the ONLY force that matters. The other soldiers are, at the end of the day, meatshields and nothing more. Springing the ambush and saving at least SOME of the Grey Wardens so that they could fight another day was the tactically correct choice. Without the Wardens, you're doomed no matter how many soldiers you have.

In summation, Loghain failed as a tactician, a servant to his king, and as a father to his son in law at Ostagar. He was completely blinded by his fear and hatred of Orlais. Such a monumental blunder and betrayal, by itself, would have mandated his execution. His further actions after seizing power only confirm how richly he deserved his fate.

Point 3 is entirely wrong. Loghain never knew for certain that Wardens were the only ones that could slay the Archdemon. They say they are the only ones that can end the blight and that was it. Their secrecy bite them in the ass. And another point is that Cailan insisted the Grey Wardens fought at his side, were this not the case, they might have survived.

Loghain had good reasons to refuse help from Orlais. The story already shows that the nobles were pressing Celene to conquer Ferelden while it was recovering from the blight. His fear was spot on here.

So you can argue about what he did after Ostagar was wrong, I won't deny that. But I firmly believe he made the right call to pull back his man, regardless of his reasons. Cailan was beyond saving, and brought his own fate.

Modifié par Jaison1986, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:24 .

[Master Warder Z_]

General TSAR wrote...

Exactly.

An experienced and battle-harden tactician with decades of experience would have scouts reporting new intelligence.

He did..They just kept dying ._.

[Zu Long]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Responses 

1. Loghain spent a good deal prior to the main skirmish at Ostogar scouting the wilds to make tactical assessments about Darkspawn Progress and Numbers but from in game events we can see how often that worked; He was working with an incomplete picture of the enemies numbers, capabilities and make up at best. Thus a simple Pincer feint was likely the best he could do given that the battlefield as many have already stated was a box canyon with only a single entrance and exit.


2. Past expreince in the war with Orlais aside the battle would have been fought and lost regardless of his acceptance of their aid considering that they only were arriving at the borders of Fereldan weeks after the battle occured. After all as Alistair so sagely put "The Nearest Orlaisian City is weeks away." 

3. Considering that evidence at this point contricted your earlier claim of it being a blight considering there was no indication of an Arch Demon at this point it could be understandable to not buy into a blight considering a good majority of people aren't plagued with dreams of the Arch Demon and cannot sense Darkspawn intent.

Furthermore there are far more Wardens in the world then those that came to Fereldan from Orlais and elsewhere. Yes Fereldan likely would have fallen had it not been for the actions of the Gray Wardens but that aside, It took the Military to breach the siege of Denerim and futhermore considering that as blight advanced and Nations wrote off the country, What was Loghain to do?

Blindly accept the aid of those who might take advantage of his Nation's Weakeness? Espeically their Neighbors to the West that did so before? 

Loghain as i have said it many times wasn't working with the best information he could have at the moment, and in part that is due to Gray Warden Secercy and Mystism. From his perspective he outlined what he likely thought the only method of salvaging the battle when it was clear despite him not having a clear picture of enemy numbers and capabilities that they were in fact heavily outnumbered.

In closing.

I think Loghain did the best he could with the mess he was dumped into and better then most.

1. Your counterpoint here doesn't address the point in my post. If anything, it reinforces it. With, as you put it, incomplete information about the actual size of the Darkspawn army, and as I said, NO WAY to see the battlefield, it would seem to give lie to the idea that Loghain only left because of how badly outnumbered they were. It wasn't a tactical decision. It couldn't have been, based on what we know. It was purely a political betrayal of Cailan and the Wardens.

2. On the contrary, we know that Cailan was in favor of allowing the Orlesian's to arrive and help. If Cailan was dead set on winning the battle himself and having songs sung about him, why invite the Orlesians at all? If Cailan truely suspected the Fereldin army couldn't win, as we've been told RtO, then it stands to reason that he placed himself in harms way at Ostagar so that Loghain would have to see the futility of going it alone. Cailan probably suspected Loghain would leave the Grey Wardens to die and insisted on being in the blocking force so that Loghain would be forced to come get him. (I realize there's quite a bit of conjecture in there, but it's the only way the pieces we have from Return to Ostagar make sense.)

3. The archdemon hadn't been spotted, but the experts on the subject, ie the Grey Wardens, were certain that it was and told the King and Loghain so. Disbelieving them, as Loghain seems to have, is simply more indication of how poor his judgement had become. Consider that even the Wardens all the way in ORLAIS thought it was a Blight, according to the letter from Empress Celine.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Again, Blights had happened FOUR times in the history of Thedas, and Loghain really had no reason to disbelieve the Grey Wardens except that he found it inconvenient. Grey Wardens had been required to slay end a Blight all four other times, so he doesn't really have an excuse for believing this time would be different. Claiming that "other Wardens" elsewhere exist sort of glosses over that Loghain IMPRISONED AND TORTURED the first Orlesian Warden who crossed the border to find out what was going on. By the time any of the other Wardens got a crack at the Archdemon, it's pretty clear that Ferelden would have been toast.

Loghain allowed his fears and hatred of a past enemy to overwhelm everything else, and put everything he had sworn to protect in danger of total destruction. Tactically, he made two terrible choices leading up to the battle (disregarding the Warden's warnings of the size of the threat, and refusing aid from another power) and another terrible choice in abandoning the battle when the only force that could save him was facing annihilation.

[Zu Long]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

I find people who defend Loghain's actions at Ostagar misinterpret a number of factors about the battle. The following factors are critical to coming to a correct conclusion about Loghain's actions-

1. Loghain couldn't see the battle from where he was. - People claim Loghain saw the odds and decided the battle couldn't be won. But the whole point of using the tower as a signal in the first place was that the ambush force couldn't see what was happening. We know the leadership of Ferelden was pessimistic about their chances at Ostagar behind closed doors, but Loghain had NO IDEA what the tactical situation of the battle was when he made the call to retreat.

2. Loghain is the only reason the Ferelden soldiers are so horribly outnumbered in the first place. It is Loghain who insisted Orlais not be allowed to become involved despite the fact the Ferelden troops were outmatched. While understandable based on his prior experiences with Orlais, if we consider tactics refusing aid doomed the Army at Ostagar.

3. In the face of a Blight, the only tactically relevant force is the Grey Wardens. Even IF the above two weren't true, the fact is leaving Ostagar rather than running to the aid of the Ferelden forces was tactically the wrong move. As had been demonstrated no less than FOUR times in Thedas' history, only a Grey Warden can end a blight. Loghain knew this, and the sheer number of darkspawn involved showed that this was, in fact, a Blight. That being the case, the Grey Wardens are the ONLY force that matters. The other soldiers are, at the end of the day, meatshields and nothing more. Springing the ambush and saving at least SOME of the Grey Wardens so that they could fight another day was the tactically correct choice. Without the Wardens, you're doomed no matter how many soldiers you have.

In summation, Loghain failed as a tactician, a servant to his king, and as a father to his son in law at Ostagar. He was completely blinded by his fear and hatred of Orlais. Such a monumental blunder and betrayal, by itself, would have mandated his execution. His further actions after seizing power only confirm how richly he deserved his fate.

Point 3 is entirely wrong. Loghain never knew for certain that Wardens were the only ones that could slay the Archdemon. They say they are the only ones that can end the blight and that was it. Their secrecy bite them in the ass. And another point is that Cailan insisted the Grey Wardens fought at his side, were this not the case, they might have survived.

Loghain had good reasons to refuse help from Orlais. The story already shows that the nobles were pressing Celene to conquer Ferelden while it was recovering from the blight. His fear was spot on here.

So you can argue about what he did after Ostagar was wrong, I won't deny that. But I firmly believe he made the right call to pull back his man, regardless of his reasons. Cailan was beyond saving, and brought his own fate.

Four times Thedas had faced a blight and FOUR TIMES only Grey Wardens had managed to end them. Claiming that Loghain couldn't have known that the Grey Wardens were required is just ridiculous. You can argue that Loghain didn't believe that it really WAS a Blight, in spite of what the Wardens were telling him, but that just makes him more of a fool and still means he made the wrong call.

[Steelcan]

Yes, damn Loghain for not blindly trusting the organization that has caused trouble for Ferelden in the past, for shame...

[General TSAR]

I would like to point out that no matter how many Darkspawn you kill or dismember they will never ever lose morale nor stop their onslaught unless you kill their god (who wasn't even seen at Ostagar).

Can you say the same thing about human armies?

Steelcan wrote...

Yes, damn Loghain for not blindly trusting the organization that has caused trouble for Ferelden in the past, for shame...

Weren't they responsible for an attempted coup or something?

Modifié par General TSAR, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:56 .

[LPPrince]

Four times a Warden 'happened' to slay the Archdemon. The public is not aware that a Warden is an absolute requirement. As far as the public knows, Wardens are just really dedicated, really good, and have done the deed so far.

But as far as the public knows, Wade could've picked up the pitchfork of Andraste and stabbed the Archdemon in the neck and it would've done the job.

We know thats not the case because its a Warden secret. A secret that bit them in the ass and was only really spelled out for us by Riordan.

[Zu Long]

LPPrince wrote...


Cailan. Eamon's men. No reason beyond "sharing glory".

Loghain. Orlesian men. No reason beyond "history tells us what this will bring". Loghain's reasoning becomes solid with Return To Ostagar, but of course thats hindsight.

If Cailan wasn't willing to wait for Eamon, why was he willing to wait for Orlais at first according to the guard? This only makes sense if we assume Cailan's actual motive was not to endanger Eamon's force. I think Cailan was trying to use Ostagar to show Loghain that victory without Orlais was impossible, and didn't want Eamon caught up in it. It's the only way RtO makes sense.

LP Prince wrote...

No one knew that at the time. What was known was that Grey Warden's were dedicated to facing the Blight. No one knew(barring high ranking Wardens themselves), that a Warden is actually a necessity to end a Blight.

On the contrary, everyone knew the other four Blights were only ended by Wardens. It's established military history in Thedas.Saying he didn't know they were required when he had FOUR past examples showing they were is silly.

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Responses 

1. Loghain spent a good deal prior to the main skirmish at Ostogar scouting the wilds to make tactical assessments about Darkspawn Progress and Numbers but from in game events we can see how often that worked; He was working with an incomplete picture of the enemies numbers, capabilities and make up at best. Thus a simple Pincer feint was likely the best he could do given that the battlefield as many have already stated was a box canyon with only a single entrance and exit.


2. Past expreince in the war with Orlais aside the battle would have been fought and lost regardless of his acceptance of their aid considering that they only were arriving at the borders of Fereldan weeks after the battle occured. After all as Alistair so sagely put "The Nearest Orlaisian City is weeks away." 

3. Considering that evidence at this point contricted your earlier claim of it being a blight considering there was no indication of an Arch Demon at this point it could be understandable to not buy into a blight considering a good majority of people aren't plagued with dreams of the Arch Demon and cannot sense Darkspawn intent.

Furthermore there are far more Wardens in the world then those that came to Fereldan from Orlais and elsewhere. Yes Fereldan likely would have fallen had it not been for the actions of the Gray Wardens but that aside, It took the Military to breach the siege of Denerim and futhermore considering that as blight advanced and Nations wrote off the country, What was Loghain to do?

Blindly accept the aid of those who might take advantage of his Nation's Weakeness? Espeically their Neighbors to the West that did so before? 

Loghain as i have said it many times wasn't working with the best information he could have at the moment, and in part that is due to Gray Warden Secercy and Mystism. From his perspective he outlined what he likely thought the only method of salvaging the battle when it was clear despite him not having a clear picture of enemy numbers and capabilities that they were in fact heavily outnumbered.

In closing.

I think Loghain did the best he could with the mess he was dumped into and better then most.

1. Your counterpoint here doesn't address the point in my post. If anything, it reinforces it. With, as you put it, incomplete information about the actual size of the Darkspawn army, and as I said, NO WAY to see the battlefield, it would seem to give lie to the idea that Loghain only left because of how badly outnumbered they were. It wasn't a tactical decision. It couldn't have been, based on what we know. It was purely a political betrayal of Cailan and the Wardens.

2. On the contrary, we know that Cailan was in favor of allowing the Orlesian's to arrive and help. If Cailan was dead set on winning the battle himself and having songs sung about him, why invite the Orlesians at all? If Cailan truely suspected the Fereldin army couldn't win, as we've been told RtO, then it stands to reason that he placed himself in harms way at Ostagar so that Loghain would have to see the futility of going it alone. Cailan probably suspected Loghain would leave the Grey Wardens to die and insisted on being in the blocking force so that Loghain would be forced to come get him. (I realize there's quite a bit of conjecture in there, but it's the only way the pieces we have from Return to Ostagar make sense.)

3. The archdemon hadn't been spotted, but the experts on the subject, ie the Grey Wardens, were certain that it was and told the King and Loghain so. Disbelieving them, as Loghain seems to have, is simply more indication of how poor his judgement had become. Consider that even the Wardens all the way in ORLAIS thought it was a Blight, according to the letter from Empress Celine.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Again, Blights had happened FOUR times in the history of Thedas, and Loghain really had no reason to disbelieve the Grey Wardens except that he found it inconvenient. Grey Wardens had been required to slay end a Blight all four other times, so he doesn't really have an excuse for believing this time would be different. Claiming that "other Wardens" elsewhere exist sort of glosses over that Loghain IMPRISONED AND TORTURED the first Orlesian Warden who crossed the border to find out what was going on. By the time any of the other Wardens got a crack at the Archdemon, it's pretty clear that Ferelden would have been toast.

Loghain allowed his fears and hatred of a past enemy to overwhelm everything else, and put everything he had sworn to protect in danger of total destruction. Tactically, he made two terrible choices leading up to the battle (disregarding the Warden's warnings of the size of the threat, and refusing aid from another power) and another terrible choice in abandoning the battle when the only force that could save him was facing annihilation.

1. So you would make his decision to withdraw and save the remaining forces from a rapidly deterorating scene to be what? The Means to assure his own power? In truth i cannot support that claim given that he didn't return to the capital and declare himself King. He was made acting Regent it is true but that aside it was clear from his initial plan to regroup and force the Darkspawn horde into retreat directly after Ostogar that if political power was all he sought he could have easily had it.

I cannot support that position because the events of the game do not support it, Had it not been for the civil war breaking out clearly there would have been an Southern Push into Darkspawn lines under Loghain this will be further addressed in my reply to the third point.

2. I think what Loghain states about what he thinks of Calien and his notions of being close with Orlais suits the situation better then my own words could. But again as i stated it before due to distance Orlais really isn't a factor in this to begin with. And indeed is VERY heavily based in conjecture.

3. That is not how i see it, nor apparently most of Fereldan considering that most just view them as Warriors with out equal and Peerless stratagists, nothing was mentioned about them personally being needed to slay an Archdemon and thus defeat a blight. But on to your addressal of history. Really? So the fact that the task needed to actually kill an archdemon has to be done by a Warden or it won't actually acomplish anything doesn't matter?

Nations have supported the Wardens given them resources and armies, How exaclty is Loghain to know that it was not these men, resources and what have you that did in blights but the Warden's giving their lifes to destroy the soul of the Archdemon? So clearly his notion of rebuilding the Army shattered at Ostogar does have Merit even if in a metagaming sense we already know it will not bear fruit but Loghain didn't know the secrets of the Wardens and in fact if you look into his countries history with the Wardens.

An entity that sought to depose their king and waged a war against them; His mistrust isn't entirely unjustified but that aside he couldn't have known and he didn't know critical wardens would be.

So in truth? Yes he didn't trust Orlais or the Wardens, Both were old enemies of his Nation and he couldn't get over that i will admit that but given what he knew, what the situation was known to him at the time it made sense. He is even willing to concede to the Warden that he was mistaken about Orlais being a threat at the time, even if he does turn out to be right in the end considering Orlais is sort of considering taking back its lovely little province before their civil war.

But i disagree with the notion that his decision overly damaged anything beyond the Warden Ranks and the Portion of the army that was sacrficed so the majority of it could escape. From a tactical Perspective he did the right, He had an incomplete view of the battle, the signal was late and from the moments after his withdrawl clearly the lines around the Vanguard were failing so even if he had commited the battle likely wouldn't have been turned you would have just been witness to an even greater defeat and the loss of Loghain possibly.

[Malanek]

Steelcan wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I think the story would have been much, much, better if Loghain had been able to see the battle and made the decision to retreat. It could have been ambiguous as to whether he was betraying Cailan or not. As it stood, no it wasn't wise. He made the commitment to fight and then didn't so Cailan would die. He couldn't see what was happening, it wasn't strategical.

Do you thinj it is ebtirely unreasonable tgat Loghain would have scouts out ahead of his forces hiding in ambush?  They could have reported the situation yo him

No, or there wouldn't have been the silly need for the watch tower fire. And even if there were scouts out, the general should not really be trusting them to make a decision which would lead to the death of the king.

I think the writers had a good idea with this battle, but the execution was quite poor. Needing to send the players up the tower was a mistake in terms of the story imo.

Whether you like Loghain or not, the only sensesible conclusion you can reach from the way it was executed is that Loghain wanted Cailan dead. That was the motivation for his decision.

Modifié par Malanek999, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:01 .

[DarthSliver]

Loghain didn't make his decision based on tactical thoughts, you see this in the cutscene when he said to make the retreat. It may have saved lives and actually helped our Warden be able to stop the Blight at Denrim but the fact remains, his sound of retreat wasn't made based on logic but to power grab. You see this because he pinned the death of Cailan on the Wardens and the stuff you find that has been going on with the Elfs in the Alienages is icy on the cake to his power grabbing. If he retreated logically being a good strategist that he is, I don't think he would've pinned Cailans death on Wardens. Everything that basically happen after the retreat proves his treacherous action, even Anora is appalled when she finds out the truth and had question it herself via cutscenes with her in it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

LPPrince wrote...


Cailan. Eamon's men. No reason beyond "sharing glory".

Loghain. Orlesian men. No reason beyond "history tells us what this will bring". Loghain's reasoning becomes solid with Return To Ostagar, but of course thats hindsight.

If Cailan wasn't willing to wait for Eamon, why was he willing to wait for Orlais at first according to the guard? This only makes sense if we assume Cailan's actual motive was not to endanger Eamon's force. I think Cailan was trying to use Ostagar to show Loghain that victory without Orlais was impossible, and didn't want Eamon caught up in it. It's the only way RtO makes sense.

LP Prince wrote...

No one knew that at the time. What was known was that Grey Warden's were dedicated to facing the Blight. No one knew(barring high ranking Wardens themselves), that a Warden is actually a necessity to end a Blight.

On the contrary, everyone knew the other four Blights were only ended by Wardens. It's established military history in Thedas.Saying he didn't know they were required when he had FOUR past examples showing they were is silly.

And As have i stated repeatedly Orlais wouldn't have been helpful in the final battle of Ostogar to begin with considering that their forces didn't actually arrive until after the battle so any motive or perspective of how useful they would have been is pure conjecture.

Considering they had armies at their backs everytime they defeated an Archdemon and the perception of Wardens being needed merely for being skilled warriors and what have you there was little there to suggest Gray Wardens were needed.

[Zu Long]

LPPrince wrote...

Four times a Warden 'happened' to slay the Archdemon. The public is not aware that a Warden is an absolute requirement. As far as the public knows, Wardens are just really dedicated, really good, and have done the deed so far.

But as far as the public knows, Wade could've picked up the pitchfork of Andraste and stabbed the Archdemon in the neck and it would've done the job.

We know thats not the case because its a Warden secret. A secret that bit them in the ass and was only really spelled out for us by Riordan.

Sure. The organization which ended four blights, and which is the only reason anyone survived the first one, and which ONLY exists to counteract the Blights is totally unnecessary to defeating a Blight....

Wait, no, that's insane. Riordan spelled out that killing the Archdemon kills the Warden, which was a big secret somehow, but everyone KNEW Wardens are required to end the blight. Duncan even TELLS Cailan and Loghain point blank that if the Archdemon appears they have to let the Wardens deal with it.

(On another note, I've sometimes wondered if the only reason Duncan agreed to the battle plan at Ostagar in the first place was that he was hoping the ambust would kill enough Darkspawn to flush the Archdemon out and bring it within reach of the Wardens. It makes sense that he would feel the losses of most of the army there was worth it if it forced the Archdemon to appear. Thoughts?)

[Steelcan]

Malanek999 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I think the story would have been much, much, better if Loghain had been able to see the battle and made the decision to retreat. It could have been ambiguous as to whether he was betraying Cailan or not. As it stood, no it wasn't wise. He made the commitment to fight and then didn't so Cailan would die. He couldn't see what was happening, it wasn't strategical.

Do you thinj it is ebtirely unreasonable tgat Loghain would have scouts out ahead of his forces hiding in ambush?  They could have reported the situation yo him

No, or there wouldn't have been the silly need for the watch tower fire. And even if there were scouts out, the general should not really be trusting them to make a decision which would lead to the death of the king.

I think the writers had a good idea with this battle, but the execution was quite poor. Needing to send the players up the tower was a mistake in terms of the story imo.

Whether you like Loghain or not, the only sensesible conclusion you can reach from the way it was executed is that Loghain wanted Cailan dead. That was the motivation for his decision.

Yes, don't trust your scouts, I'm sure thats in every military handbook thats ever been written<_<

The watch tower fire was so he could get the idea quickly, scouting takes a good bit more time, but a messenger *could* have worked

[Master Warder Z_]

DarthSliver wrote...

Loghain didn't make his decision based on tactical thoughts, you see this in the cutscene when he said to make the retreat. It may have saved lives and actually helped our Warden be able to stop the Blight at Denrim but the fact remains, his sound of retreat wasn't made based on logic but to power grab. You see this because he pinned the death of Cailan on the Wardens and the stuff you find that has been going on with the Elfs in the Alienages is icy on the cake to his power grabbing. If he retreated logically being a good strategist that he is, I don't think he would've pinned Cailans death on Wardens. Everything that basically happen after the retreat proves his treacherous action, even Anora is appalled when she finds out the truth and had question it herself via cutscenes with her in it.

1.As i explained in my earlier post he clearly wasn't motivated to grab power because when the chance him to do so occured he didn't. He instead acted only for his Nation, asking for the army to be rebuilt and for the nation to be united to do battle against the darkspawn.

2.And what was he do to do? Admit their king was a bumbling idiot who leapt on his own sword? Pinning the death on the thought to be dead wardens made more sense and was likely politically expedient.

3. And the actions within the Alienage only occur so far into the civil war that such horrid actions were needed for the Nation to have the capcity to defend it self, it didn't happen right out of the gate it only happened when the coffers were emptied after fighting a brutal civil war to its conclusion.

[LPPrince]

Zu Long wrote...

On the contrary, everyone knew the other four Blights were only ended by Wardens. It's established military history in Thedas. Saying he didn't know they were required when he had FOUR past examples showing they were is silly.

That doesn't work. Thats like saying because fire was the only thing used as lighting for years that fire is always a requirement.

No one thinks like that. Yes, Blights were only ended by Wardens. But what evidence is there for a person in Thedas to assume that a Warden is the ONLY one that can do it? What evidence is there for a person in Thedas to believe that a non Warden CAN'T do it?

Nothing. Nothing says to non Wardens that a Warden is absolutely required to slay the Archdemon and any other attempt is an impossibility.

Because of the Wardens keeping that a secret from everyone outside of their order, people who aren't Wardens believe that Wardens aren't that necessary.

There's a reason why the order isn't what it used to be.

Modifié par LPPrince, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:06 .

[Zu Long]

Master Warder Z wrote...

And As have i stated repeatedly Orlais wouldn't have been helpful in the final battle of Ostogar to begin with considering that their forces didn't actually arrive until after the battle so any motive or perspective of how useful they would have been is pure conjecture.

Considering they had armies at their backs everytime they defeated an Archdemon and the perception of Wardens being needed merely for being skilled warriors and what have you there was little there to suggest Gray Wardens were needed.

Orlais would have been helpful if they'd waited before engaging the Darkspawn, which you contend Loghain was advocating. According to what we learned in RtO, Cailan was willing to wait if Orlais was allowed to take the field.

And in none of the histories do we here about how the Armies at their back somehow could have done it without them. It's pretty well established that everyone knows Wardens are needed to end Blights, they just don't know precisely why, or the cost involved to the Warden who manages the task. That's the only secret Riordan reveals.

[Steelcan]

Zu Long wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

And As have i stated repeatedly Orlais wouldn't have been helpful in the final battle of Ostogar to begin with considering that their forces didn't actually arrive until after the battle so any motive or perspective of how useful they would have been is pure conjecture.

Considering they had armies at their backs everytime they defeated an Archdemon and the perception of Wardens being needed merely for being skilled warriors and what have you there was little there to suggest Gray Wardens were needed.

Orlais would have been helpful if they'd waited before engaging the Darkspawn, which you contend Loghain was advocating. According to what we learned in RtO, Cailan was willing to wait if Orlais was allowed to take the field.

And in none of the histories do we here about how the Armies at their back somehow could have done it without them. It's pretty well established that everyone knows Wardens are needed to end Blights, they just don't know precisely why, or the cost involved to the Warden who manages the task. That's the only secret Riordan reveals.

Everyone knows wardens are good at ending blights, they have no inkling that wardens are necessary

[Veruin]

Zu Long wrote...

Wait, no, that's insane. Riordan spelled out that killing the Archdemon kills the Warden, which was a big secret somehow, but everyone KNEW Wardens are required to end the blight. Duncan even TELLS Cailan and Loghain point blank that if the Archdemon appears they have to let the Wardens deal with it.

Duncan: "Your majesty, you should consider the possibility of the archdemon appearing"
Loghan: "There have been no sightings of dragons in the wilds"
Cailan: "Isn't that what your men are here for Duncan?"
Duncan: "Err, yes, your majesty."

Given that Cailan practically worships fairytales, i wouldn't be surprised if Duncan never told them but Cailan assumed (rightfully so, broken clocks, yadadada) and Loghain denounced it as stories.

Modifié par Veruin, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:08 .

[LPPrince]

Broken clock is right twice a day, yep.

Hah, am now imagining Cailan as a broken clock.

[Zu Long]

LPPrince wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

On the contrary, everyone knew the other four Blights were only ended by Wardens. It's established military history in Thedas. Saying he didn't know they were required when he had FOUR past examples showing they were is silly.

That doesn't work. Thats like saying because fire was the only thing used as lighting for years that fire is always a requirement.

No one thinks like that. Yes, Blights were only ended by Wardens. But what evidence is there for a person in Thedas to assume that a Warden is the ONLY one that can do it? What evidence is there for a person in Thedas to believe that a non Warden CAN'T do it?

Nothing. Nothing says to non Wardens that a Warden is absolutely required to slay the Archdemon and any other attempt is an impossibility.

Because of the Wardens keeping that a secret from everyone outside of their order, people who aren't Wardens believe that Wardens aren't that necessary.

There's a reason why the order isn't what it used to be.

The problem is that ending Blights is the only reason Wardens exist. It's the entire reason Kingdoms let the Wardens do pretty much whatever they want. Even Loghain, in the game, NEVER questions that a Grey Warden would be needed to kill an Archdemon. I'm pretty sure Duncan even says it outright at the war council. You guys are acting like the Wardens were just people who happened to be good at fighting Darkspawn. Just from the lore and codexs we know it's a lot more than that.