308 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Veruin wrote...

Given that Cailan practically worships fairytales, i wouldn't be surprised if Duncan never told them but Cailan assumed (rightfully so, broken clocks, yadadada) and Loghain denounced it as stories.

I assumed more like they see it as if they're the experts who know how to deal with it rather than being 100% mandatory.

The Grey Wardens were idiots anyways.

[LPPrince]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I assumed more like they see it as if they're the experts who know how to deal with it rather than being 100% mandatory.

The Grey Wardens were idiots anyways.

Ding Ding Ding on the "believe they'll deal with it rather than believe they are mandatory"

[Zu Long]

Veruin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Wait, no, that's insane. Riordan spelled out that killing the Archdemon kills the Warden, which was a big secret somehow, but everyone KNEW Wardens are required to end the blight. Duncan even TELLS Cailan and Loghain point blank that if the Archdemon appears they have to let the Wardens deal with it.

Duncan: "Your majesty, you should consider the possibility of the archdemon appearing"
Loghan: "There have been no sightings of dragons in the wilds"
Cailan: "Isn't that what your men are here for Duncan?"
Duncan: "Err, yes, your majesty."

Given that Cailan practically worships fairytales, i wouldn't be surprised if Duncan never told them but Cailan assumed (rightfully so, broken clocks, yadadada) and Loghain denounced it as stories.

Which, as I pointed out, makes Loghain a fool who disregarded history and made a tactically poor decision because of it. Thanks for the quote by the way, I was certain that was mentioned.

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

And As have i stated repeatedly Orlais wouldn't have been helpful in the final battle of Ostogar to begin with considering that their forces didn't actually arrive until after the battle so any motive or perspective of how useful they would have been is pure conjecture.

Considering they had armies at their backs everytime they defeated an Archdemon and the perception of Wardens being needed merely for being skilled warriors and what have you there was little there to suggest Gray Wardens were needed.

Orlais would have been helpful if they'd waited before engaging the Darkspawn, which you contend Loghain was advocating. According to what we learned in RtO, Cailan was willing to wait if Orlais was allowed to take the field.

And in none of the histories do we here about how the Armies at their back somehow could have done it without them. It's pretty well established that everyone knows Wardens are needed to end Blights, they just don't know precisely why, or the cost involved to the Warden who manages the task. That's the only secret Riordan reveals.

At the battle of Ayesleigh Garahel had Ativian Soldiers, Tveinter Soldiers, Dwarves, Golems and an army from Ravain.

And yet we are to believe from an uninformed in world perspective that it was JUST one elf despite being surrounded by thousands if not tens of thousands of men, women and golems and what have you.

That it was JUST the warden in this situation that mattered? 

That just doesn't make sense to me i am sorry.

[Veruin]

Zu Long wrote...

The problem is that ending Blights is the only reason Wardens exist. It's the entire reason Kingdoms let the Wardens do pretty much whatever they want. Even Loghain, in the game, NEVER questions that a Grey Warden would be needed to kill an Archdemon. I'm pretty sure Duncan even says it outright at the war council. You guys are acting like the Wardens were just people who happened to be good at fighting Darkspawn. Just from the lore and codexs we know it's a lot more than that.

Landsmeet..

"It is indeed a blight Wulf...but do we need Grey Wardens to fight it?"
"They claim that they alone can end it"

You are also acting like the Wardens aren't super secretive pricks.  Duncan shanked Jory just because Jory knew too much.

Link to where he says it.

Why would he ask this if Duncan supposedly told him?  It's because he didn't.  Unless you plan on telling me loghain lied about it.

Modifié par Veruin, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:20 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Wait, no, that's insane. Riordan spelled out that killing the Archdemon kills the Warden, which was a big secret somehow, but everyone KNEW Wardens are required to end the blight. Duncan even TELLS Cailan and Loghain point blank that if the Archdemon appears they have to let the Wardens deal with it.

Duncan: "Your majesty, you should consider the possibility of the archdemon appearing"
Loghan: "There have been no sightings of dragons in the wilds"
Cailan: "Isn't that what your men are here for Duncan?"
Duncan: "Err, yes, your majesty."

Given that Cailan practically worships fairytales, i wouldn't be surprised if Duncan never told them but Cailan assumed (rightfully so, broken clocks, yadadada) and Loghain denounced it as stories.

Which, as I pointed out, makes Loghain a fool who disregarded history and made a tactically poor decision because of it. Thanks for the quote by the way, I was certain that was mentioned.

Not really considering there was nothing known IN history why Warden's were needed to defeat an Archdemon when they were surrounded by soldiers fighting the same enemy.

[Zu Long]

LPPrince wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I assumed more like they see it as if they're the experts who know how to deal with it rather than being 100% mandatory.

The Grey Wardens were idiots anyways.

Ding Ding Ding on the "believe they'll deal with it rather than believe they are mandatory"

Which makes him a fool, as I said previously.

[LPPrince]

Zu Long wrote...

Which makes him a fool, as I said previously.

The word Dave used was "they", not "him".

[Zu Long]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Wait, no, that's insane. Riordan spelled out that killing the Archdemon kills the Warden, which was a big secret somehow, but everyone KNEW Wardens are required to end the blight. Duncan even TELLS Cailan and Loghain point blank that if the Archdemon appears they have to let the Wardens deal with it.

Duncan: "Your majesty, you should consider the possibility of the archdemon appearing"
Loghan: "There have been no sightings of dragons in the wilds"
Cailan: "Isn't that what your men are here for Duncan?"
Duncan: "Err, yes, your majesty."

Given that Cailan practically worships fairytales, i wouldn't be surprised if Duncan never told them but Cailan assumed (rightfully so, broken clocks, yadadada) and Loghain denounced it as stories.

Which, as I pointed out, makes Loghain a fool who disregarded history and made a tactically poor decision because of it. Thanks for the quote by the way, I was certain that was mentioned.

Not really considering there was nothing known IN history why Warden's were needed to defeat an Archdemon when they were surrounded by soldiers fighting the same enemy.

Except that the dialogue quoted above makes it pretty clear Cailan and Loghain had been told that defeating the Archdemon is what the Grey Wardens were there for. Armed with that info and the knowledge that this had happened FOUR TIMES makes it a pretty big reach on Loghain's part that they somehow could be allowed to all die.

[Malanek]

Steelcan wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I think the story would have been much, much, better if Loghain had been able to see the battle and made the decision to retreat. It could have been ambiguous as to whether he was betraying Cailan or not. As it stood, no it wasn't wise. He made the commitment to fight and then didn't so Cailan would die. He couldn't see what was happening, it wasn't strategical.

Do you thinj it is ebtirely unreasonable tgat Loghain would have scouts out ahead of his forces hiding in ambush?  They could have reported the situation yo him

No, or there wouldn't have been the silly need for the watch tower fire. And even if there were scouts out, the general should not really be trusting them to make a decision which would lead to the death of the king.

I think the writers had a good idea with this battle, but the execution was quite poor. Needing to send the players up the tower was a mistake in terms of the story imo.

Whether you like Loghain or not, the only sensesible conclusion you can reach from the way it was executed is that Loghain wanted Cailan dead. That was the motivation for his decision.

Yes, don't trust your scouts, I'm sure thats in every military handbook thats ever been written<_<

The watch tower fire was so he could get the idea quickly, scouting takes a good bit more time, but a messenger *could* have worked

You dont ask a scout to time the charge. You don't ask a scout to make a decision over whether to retreat once a battle has already started. Trusting scouts is important but their role is to simply relay information. Critical decisions of this nature are always made by the general. To abandon the king in this situation for strategical value would require the general to see the situation for himself. Your scouts would have reported numbers BEFORE the battle started.

There was no indication from the game that a scout relayed information to Loghain. The watchtower strongly suggested the opposite, he made the decision as the tower signal came on. There is no indication from the representation of the battle itself that they would n'o have won if a second army had hit the darkspawn from the rear.

[LPPrince]

Zu Long wrote...

Except that the dialogue quoted above makes it pretty clear Cailan and Loghain had been told that defeating the Archdemon is what the Grey Wardens were there for. Armed with that info and the knowledge that this had happened FOUR TIMES makes it a pretty big reach on Loghain's part that they somehow could be allowed to all die.

Armies are sent into enemy countries sometimes to kill an important target. That would be why they're there. Its happened countlessly. Whats to stop someone close to the aforementioned target from poisoning them because the target ate their scone?

Should that sconeless associate forego poisoning their former friend because the army's supposed to take care of it?

Modifié par LPPrince, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:23 .

[Zu Long]

LPPrince wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Which makes him a fool, as I said previously.

The word Dave used was "they", not "him".

Why would I care? Let's run this down- My points were

1. Loghain couldn't see the battle. He didn't know what was going on and therefore his choice to leave was more politics, not tactics.

-This has held up. None of the defenders of Loghain have been able to say much against it. Confirmed.

2. Loghain refused aid from Orlais which would have made for better odds.

-We know from RtO Cailan would have waited for the Orlesians. Therefore, not waiting for them was a poor choice, tactically. Confirmed.

3. The Grey Wardens were required to end the Blight. Loghain knew, or should have known this and made the correct decision that they were worth more than his army in saving Ferelden.

-As shown by dialogue and in world lore, Loghain had a mountain of evidence that it was a Blight, and that the Grey Wardens would be required to end it. He chose to ignore it. Confirmed.


I think I'll call it a day then. All three of my points stand up, and now we're just quote walling each other.

[LPPrince]

I wouldn't start throwing the word "confirmed" around all willy nilly just because counterpoints haven't changed an opinion.

[Master Warder Z_]

LPPrince wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Except that the dialogue quoted above makes it pretty clear Cailan and Loghain had been told that defeating the Archdemon is what the Grey Wardens were there for. Armed with that info and the knowledge that this had happened FOUR TIMES makes it a pretty big reach on Loghain's part that they somehow could be allowed to all die.

Armies are sent into enemy countries sometimes to kill an important target. That would be why they're there. Its happened countlessly. Whats to stop someone close to the aforementioned target from poisoning them because the target ate their scone?

Should that sconeless associate forego poisoning their former friend because the army's supposed to take care of it?

My point exactly; Except it mentioned scones.

I love those buttery little biscuits.

[Veruin]

LPPrince wrote...

I wouldn't start throwing the word "confirmed" around all willy nilly just because counterpoints haven't changed an opinion.

Let her think she won.  It's clear she has no interest anymore.

[Zu Long]

LPPrince wrote...

I wouldn't start throwing the word "confirmed" around all willy nilly just because counterpoints haven't changed an opinion.

You haven't really made any couterpoints that I haven't shown false. This

LPPrince wrote...

Armies are sent into enemy countries
sometimes to kill an important target. That would be why they're there.
Its happened countlessly. Whats to stop someone close to the
aforementioned target from poisoning them because the target ate their
scone?

Should that sconeless associate forego poisoning their former friend because the army's supposed to take care of it?

is not a counterpoint to what I wrote. You just threw up something random about armies and poisoning that doesn't make much sense.

[Veruin]

Counter this then and I suggest watching the video to the 3:50 mark or so.

Veruin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

The problem is that ending Blights is the only reason Wardens exist. It's the entire reason Kingdoms let the Wardens do pretty much whatever they want. Even Loghain, in the game, NEVER questions that a Grey Warden would be needed to kill an Archdemon. I'm pretty sure Duncan even says it outright at the war council. You guys are acting like the Wardens were just people who happened to be good at fighting Darkspawn. Just from the lore and codexs we know it's a lot more than that.

Landsmeet..

"It is indeed a blight Wulf...but do we need Grey Wardens to fight it?"
"They claim that they alone can end it"

You are also acting like the Wardens aren't super secretive pricks.  Duncan shanked Jory just because Jory knew too much.

Link to where he says it.

Why would he ask this if Duncan supposedly told him?  It's because he didn't.  Unless you plan on telling me loghain lied about it.

Modifié par Veruin, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:30 .

[LPPrince]

Armies=Wardens
Target=Archdemon
Sconeless Associate=Anyone who isn't a Warden

[Master Warder Z_]

LPPrince wrote...

I wouldn't start throwing the word "confirmed" around all willy nilly just because counterpoints haven't changed an opinion.

Loghain detractors just can't stand how sexy Simon Templemon sounds in his role.

[TEWR]

Of course it was wise. It's sad that this is still in doubt by some people.

[AlexanderCousland]

Zu Long wrote...


1. Your counterpoint here doesn't address the point in my post. If anything, it reinforces it. With, as you put it, incomplete information about the actual size of the Darkspawn army, and as I said, NO WAY to see the battlefield, it would seem to give lie to the idea that Loghain only left because of how badly outnumbered they were. It wasn't a tactical decision. It couldn't have been, based on what we know. It was purely a political betrayal of Cailan and the Wardens.

WHAT WE KNOW is that our Wardens and Alistair were supposed to light the Beacon that gave Loghain the signal to join the battle, WE obviously failed to do so in a timely manner considering the Tower of Ishal was inconveniently overrun with Darkspawn. We also know the King Cailin and the frontlines were getting smashed as soon as the battle started, had Lohgain joined the battle after our LATE signal we likely woukd have lost Ferelden because there would be no Army left, purely tactical decision, although it doesn't help he found out Cailain was planning to become an Orlesian Emperor.

. On the contrary, we know that Cailan was in favor of allowing the Orlesian's to arrive and help. If Cailan was dead set on winning the battle himself and having songs sung about him, why invite the Orlesians at all? If Cailan truely suspected the Fereldin army couldn't win, as we've been told RtO, then it stands to reason that he placed himself in harms way at Ostagar so that Loghain would have to see the futility of going it alone. Cailan probably suspected Loghain would leave the Grey Wardens to die and insisted on being in the blocking force so that Loghain would be forced to come get him. (I realize there's quite a bit of conjecture in there, but it's the only way the pieces we have from Return to Ostagar make sense.)

So your saying Cailan joined the frontlines so Lohgain could save him and the Wardens?

3. The archdemon hadn't been spotted, but the experts on the subject, ie the Grey Wardens, were certain that it was and told the King and Loghain so. Disbelieving them, as Loghain seems to have, is simply more indication of how poor his judgement had become. Consider that even the Wardens all the way in ORLAIS thought it was a Blight, according to the letter from Empress Celine.

I assume you haven't read The Calling, otherwise you woukd know the only previous experience Lohgain had with Wardens was when they Dragged Maric on a suicide mission and He ended up watching the Architect turn 2 of them the Ghouls and Tell his plan to Taint the World, oh yeah Maric almost because of that too, so Forgive Lohgain for not being trustworthy.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Again, Blights had happened FOUR times in the history of Thedas, and Loghain really had no reason to disbelieve the Grey Wardens except that he found it inconvenient. Grey Wardens had been required to slay end a Blight all four other times, so he doesn't really have an excuse for believing this time would be different. Claiming that "other Wardens" elsewhere exist sort of glosses over that Loghain IMPRISONED AND TORTURED the first Orlesian Warden who crossed the border to find out what was going on. By the time any of the other Wardens got a crack at the Archdemon, it's pretty clear that Ferelden would have been toast.

Your operating under the assumption that General Population is aware Wardens are tainted, because they are not. The fact the The Taint inside a Warden is the only thing that kills a Archdemon IS A SECRET. Lohgain probably thought a common army could defeat the Horde, which was not known to be a blight at the time.

Loghain allowed his fears and hatred of a past enemy to overwhelm everything else, and put everything he had sworn to protect in danger of total destruction. Tactically, he made two terrible choices leading up to the battle (disregarding the Warden's warnings of the size of the threat, and refusing aid from another power) and another terrible choice in abandoning the battle when the only force that could save him was facing annihilation.

Actually he made very sound decisions, He would have failed because he didnt know he needed Wardens. BUT THAT'S IRRELEVANT. The Orlesian/Fereldan war only ended about 30 year's before the 5th Blight, so Orlesians arent exactly a "past enemy". Ferelden is literally 5 years into its second Fereldan King after a 100+ year Orlesian Occupation when Origins begins.

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I wouldn't start throwing the word "confirmed" around all willy nilly just because counterpoints haven't changed an opinion.

You haven't really made any couterpoints that I haven't shown false. This

LPPrince wrote...

Armies are sent into enemy countries
sometimes to kill an important target. That would be why they're there.
Its happened countlessly. Whats to stop someone close to the
aforementioned target from poisoning them because the target ate their
scone?

Should that sconeless associate forego poisoning their former friend because the army's supposed to take care of it?

is not a counterpoint to what I wrote. You just threw up something random about armies and poisoning that doesn't make much sense.

It made sense to me; In so far that from an unelightened perspective taking insight from a battle centuries later that the role of an individual soldier may have been overstated when he did in fact have an army at his back.

[Zu Long]

Veruin wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I wouldn't start throwing the word "confirmed" around all willy nilly just because counterpoints haven't changed an opinion.

Let her think she won.  It's clear she has no interest anymore.

I'm actually a guy, I just really like my female elf character. She was awesome.

As for declaring victory, I don't know what else to do. We've confirmed all three points I made in the course of this debate. Nothing you guys have said has actually taken one of them down. You don't have to agree with the conclusion I draw from them, but if you have something to take one of them down, that hasn't already been tried and shot down, I'm waiting.

[LPPrince]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Of course it was wise. It's sad that this is still in doubt by some people.

Its the difference between half an army helping fight the Archdemon in Denerim or that army ceasing to exist thus not being there for aid.

Thats as simple as I'd put it, yeah.

[Zu Long]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I wouldn't start throwing the word "confirmed" around all willy nilly just because counterpoints haven't changed an opinion.

You haven't really made any couterpoints that I haven't shown false. This

LPPrince wrote...

Armies are sent into enemy countries
sometimes to kill an important target. That would be why they're there.
Its happened countlessly. Whats to stop someone close to the
aforementioned target from poisoning them because the target ate their
scone?

Should that sconeless associate forego poisoning their former friend because the army's supposed to take care of it?

is not a counterpoint to what I wrote. You just threw up something random about armies and poisoning that doesn't make much sense.

It made sense to me; In so far that from an unelightened perspective taking insight from a battle centuries later that the role of an individual soldier may have been overstated when he did in fact have an army at his back.

Which doesn't address the point that Loghain had the information he needed to make the right tactical decision at hand. THAT HE DISREGARDED IT, for whatever reason, doesn't change the fact he made the wrong choice, and a poor tactical decision given what he knew.