308 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

Zu Long wrote...

We've confirmed all three points I made in the course of this debate

Nothing you guys have said has actually taken one of them down

You don't have to agree with the conclusion I draw from them, but if you have something to take one of them down, that hasn't already been tried and shot down, I'm waiting

Oooookaaaay, I can see where this is going, lemme head back to my Frozen Thread before the Clydesdale runs me over

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

Veruin wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I wouldn't start throwing the word "confirmed" around all willy nilly just because counterpoints haven't changed an opinion.

Let her think she won.  It's clear she has no interest anymore.

I'm actually a guy, I just really like my female elf character. She was awesome.

As for declaring victory, I don't know what else to do. We've confirmed all three points I made in the course of this debate. Nothing you guys have said has actually taken one of them down. You don't have to agree with the conclusion I draw from them, but if you have something to take one of them down, that hasn't already been tried and shot down, I'm waiting.

You mean point one expecting aid from the Implausible politically inconvient foe that most of the country still hates from their role as being oppessors for a century? And Loghain somehow being at fault for not expecting them to swoop in and save the day when they couldn't have arrived at the field in time to begin with?

Or Point two somehow Loghain being at fault for not understanding why the Wardens were needed, taking their word at it being a blight and them somehow being crucial when both the Nation and him personally happening to have a past with the Wardens, Or Furthermore him magically having the insight to glean from history that the Wardens not the thousands of those that fought alongside them against the Archdemon were somehow more responbible then said armies and it not simply being Warden Bravado and mystism?

Or Point three Loghain seeking political power at the expense of his King when in truth when the moment for him to declare himself King and establish a new Dynasty presented it self he didn't, He instead merely went about as a Regent and to secure his nation against foreign and darkspawn incursions.

[Master Warder Z_]

LPPrince wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

We've confirmed all three points I made in the course of this debate

Nothing you guys have said has actually taken one of them down

You don't have to agree with the conclusion I draw from them, but if you have something to take one of them down, that hasn't already been tried and shot down, I'm waiting

Oooookaaaay, I can see where this is going, lemme head back to my Frozen Thread before the Clydesdale runs me over

But that movie was nothing more then a series of horrible  musical numbers; each one worst then the one before it!

[Zu Long]

FreshIstay wrote...

WHAT WE KNOW is that our Wardens and Alistair were supposed to light the Beacon that gave Loghain the signal to join the battle, WE obviously failed to do so in a timely manner considering the Tower of Ishal was inconveniently overrun with Darkspawn. We also know the King Cailin and the frontlines were getting smashed as soon as the battle started, had Lohgain joined the battle after our LATE signal we likely woukd have lost Ferelden because there would be no Army left, purely tactical decision, although it doesn't help he found out Cailain was planning to become an Orlesian Emperor.

We're actually provided with a shot of what Logain can see during the cutscene. He can see the tower, but nothing else because the terrain obscures the fighting.

So your saying Cailan joined the frontlines so Lohgain could save him and the Wardens?

I admitted it was conjecture, but it makes sense. Cailan loved Loghain like a father and people thought the same was true of Loghain. I think Cailan was trying to get Loghain to see that Ferelden couldn't do this alone. He thought Loghain would come save him. He was wrong. (I actually wonder if Cailan WANTED most of Ferelden's army destroyed at that point to provide political pressure on the rest of Ferelden to allow the union between him and the Empress. It makes sense based on what we know Cailan wanted, and explains why he went into Ostagar despite knowing it wasn't going to work, as we learn in RtO

I assume you haven't read The Calling, otherwise you woukd know the only previous experience Lohgain had with Wardens was when they Dragged Maric on a suicide mission and He ended up watching the Architect turn 2 of them the Ghouls and Tell his plan to Taint the World, oh yeah Maric almost because of that too, so Forgive Lohgain for not being trustworthy.

With the entirety of Ferelden in the balance? I forgive Loghain NOTHING. I'm aware he didn't like the Wardens. That he let that cause him to endanger his homeland is what I find deplorable.

Your operating under the assumption that General Population is aware Wardens are tainted, because they are not. The fact the The Taint inside a Warden is the only thing that kills a Archdemon IS A SECRET. Lohgain probably thought a common army could defeat the Horde, which was not known to be a blight at the time.

As pointed out elsewhere in the game, this is incorrect. Dialogue in the game shows Duncan had told Cailan the Archdemon would require Wardens, and the general lore shows that most people knew Wardens are required to end a blight. Only the COST of killing the Archdemon was a secret. Most people, and certainly the important people, know Wardens must end a blight. That's the only reason they exist.

Loghain allowed his fears and hatred of a past enemy to overwhelm everything else, and put everything he had sworn to protect in danger of total destruction. Tactically, he made two terrible choices leading up to the battle (disregarding the Warden's warnings of the size of the threat, and refusing aid from another power) and another terrible choice in abandoning the battle when the only force that could save him was facing annihilation.

Actually he made very sound decisions, He would have failed because he didnt know he needed Wardens. BUT THAT'S IRRELEVANT. The Orlesian/Fereldan war only ended about 30 year's before the 5th Blight, so Orlesians arent exactly a "past enemy". Ferelden is literally 5 years into its second Fereldan King after a 100+ year Orlesian Occupation when Origins begins.

He did know (or at least, should have known) he needed Wardens, he DIDN'T know how badly outnumbered he was because he couldn't see the battlefield, and he DID allow his hatred to blind him to the greater threat.

[Mike3207]

I think waiting for the Orlesian Wardens and/or Eamons troops is really a red herring. The Ostagar forces might have been willing to wait, but I see no evidence the darkspawn would have waited that long.

[Martyr1777]

Its funny how the same things get said over and over in these Loghain threads.

Why doesn't anyone look past the actual happens and take a behind the scenes look. Honestly Ostagar was just the most poorly writen part of DAO (sorry love the game but its true).

First Loghain is either writen wrong in DAO or he is in Stolen Throne. He never once backs down to anything or anyone in the book if he feels differently but at Ostagar all he does is disagree then go pout. I saw that whole thing so different after reading the book. You can claim he wanted Cailan dead all you want, he wanted to kill Maric at first to but did what was right for Fereldan. Why would he not do the same at Ostagar. Hell Cailan aside and even not believing it was a blight he still needed the troops that got slaughtered. Not just to fight the Darkspawn but he also though the Orlisian troops were on the way and wanted to fight them just as much. Plus I can't imagine him siding with a traitor like Howe. Howe controled the north, who cares, the real Loghain (book Loghain imo) would have denounced him in Denerim and forced him to give up his lands for his action or killed him.

Loghain aside, there is the Grey Wardens 'can sense the Darkspawn' bit we hear every 3 lines of dialog but they never do, certainly not when they tunneled under to the tower.

There is the gobally moronic charge out of the defensive chokepoint as others have said.

Finally I dont remeber seeing a single mage or templar in the battle scenes.

I'm sure i could think of more if I tried but that should be more then enough. The entire thing is so full of holes its laughable. Luckily the rest was better.

[Rotward]

How can we know? We know that logan's retreat was bad for the troops, but we don't know how large his force was, how large the enemy force was. This is speculation of speculation.

[Zu Long]

Master Warder Z wrote...
You mean point one expecting aid from the Implausible politically inconvient foe that most of the country still hates from their role as being oppessors for a century? And Loghain somehow being at fault for not expecting them to swoop in and save the day when they couldn't have arrived at the field in time to begin with?

Or Point two somehow Loghain being at fault for not understanding why the Wardens were needed, taking their word at it being a blight and them somehow being crucial when both the Nation and him personally happening to have a past with the Wardens, Or Furthermore him magically having the insight to glean from history that the Wardens not the thousands of those that fought alongside them against the Archdemon were somehow more responbible then said armies and it not simply being Warden Bravado and mystism?

Or Point three Loghain seeking political power at the expense of his King when in truth when the moment for him to declare himself King and establish a new Dynasty presented it self he didn't, He instead merely went about as a Regent and to secure his nation against foreign and darkspawn incursions.

Okay, one more time-

Point ONE is that HE COULD NOT SEE THE BATTLEFIELD and therefore did not know how badly outnumbered he was, when he withdrew. He knew the signal had been lit, and that the darkspawn likely outnumbered him to some degree, but nothing else. As a result, he can't have been making a tactical decision.

TWO is that he did not allow Cailan to wait for Orlais. Your point about Orlais not arriving in time is negated by the fact that we have been told Cailan wanted to wait to engage until they arrived according to RtO. Putting his hatred and mistrust of Orlais shows poor priorities when Darkspawn were about to destroy his homeland. Orlais could be dealt with IF they tried something.

Three- Claiming he had reasons for not liking the Wardens does not change the fact that he allowed that mistrust to blind him when it came time to defend his country. Again, the established lore is that Killing the Archdemon ends a blight, Wardens are needed to Kill Archdemons, and he had been told this was a blight. it was so obvious that Wardens in ORLAIS knew it. Not trusting the people who, literally, ONLY exist for the purpose of stopping blights, is STUPID. He had the information to make the right call, and decided to screw the Wardens over instead.

Let me be clear here- it may be understandable that Loghain did what he did. That's because he's a well written, complex character. But the topic says- WAS IT WISE? The answer is NO. It was not. He had the right answer in front of him and chose to ignore it because of his personal feelings. That is the opposite of wise.

Personal feelings which, by the way, placed him on the throne, where he made MORE bad decisions. Honestly, whether he wanted the political power or not is kind of up for debate. I think ultimately he thought he'd be a better successor to Maric than Cailan and took the throne for that reason, but it's debateable, and also not really germaine to answering the question at hand.

[Martyr1777]

Double post.... stupid phone.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:11 .

[AresKeith]

Zu Long wrote...

We've confirmed all three points I made in the course of this debate

Nothing you guys have said has actually taken one of them down

You don't have to agree with the conclusion I draw from them, but if you have something to take one of them down, that hasn't already been tried and shot down, I'm waiting

This seems more like you refusing to acknowledge them and sticking to your points regardless

[Veruin]

AresKeith wrote...

This seems more like you refusing to acknowledge them and sticking to your points regardless

I'm curious as to why he completely ignores my post.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I don't think they could've won at Ostagar without reinforcements from Orlais. They might have managed a retreat if Loghain charged though.

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
You mean point one expecting aid from the Implausible politically inconvient foe that most of the country still hates from their role as being oppessors for a century? And Loghain somehow being at fault for not expecting them to swoop in and save the day when they couldn't have arrived at the field in time to begin with?

Or Point two somehow Loghain being at fault for not understanding why the Wardens were needed, taking their word at it being a blight and them somehow being crucial when both the Nation and him personally happening to have a past with the Wardens, Or Furthermore him magically having the insight to glean from history that the Wardens not the thousands of those that fought alongside them against the Archdemon were somehow more responbible then said armies and it not simply being Warden Bravado and mystism?

Or Point three Loghain seeking political power at the expense of his King when in truth when the moment for him to declare himself King and establish a new Dynasty presented it self he didn't, He instead merely went about as a Regent and to secure his nation against foreign and darkspawn incursions.

Okay, one more time-

Point ONE is that HE COULD NOT SEE THE BATTLEFIELD and therefore did not know how badly outnumbered he was, when he withdrew. He knew the signal had been lit, and that the darkspawn likely outnumbered him to some degree, but nothing else. As a result, he can't have been making a tactical decision.

TWO is that he did not allow Cailan to wait for Orlais. Your point about Orlais not arriving in time is negated by the fact that we have been told Cailan wanted to wait to engage until they arrived according to RtO. Putting his hatred and mistrust of Orlais shows poor priorities when Darkspawn were about to destroy his homeland. Orlais could be dealt with IF they tried something.

Three- Claiming he had reasons for not liking the Wardens does not change the fact that he allowed that mistrust to blind him when it came time to defend his country. Again, the established lore is that Killing the Archdemon ends a blight, Wardens are needed to Kill Archdemons, and he had been told this was a blight. it was so obvious that Wardens in ORLAIS knew it. Not trusting the people who, literally, ONLY exist for the purpose of stopping blights, is STUPID. He had the information to make the right call, and decided to screw the Wardens over instead.

Let me be clear here- it may be understandable that Loghain did what he did. That's because he's a well written, complex character. But the topic says- WAS IT WISE? The answer is NO. It was not. He had the right answer in front of him and chose to ignore it because of his personal feelings. That is the opposite of wise.

Personal feelings which, by the way, placed him on the throne, where he made MORE bad decisions. Honestly, whether he wanted the political power or not is kind of up for debate. I think ultimately he thought he'd be a better successor to Maric than Cailan and took the throne for that reason, but it's debateable, and also not really germaine to answering the question at hand.

1.

Erm in the very scene he orders the retreat he glances back at the battlefield which is to his back...



Point two I think this about sums it up: 

Calian: Is that the Horde approaching?

Soldier 1: It is indeed sire.

Calian: HOW DARE THEY! We are still awaiting my reinforcements which are several weeks away! Tell them to return in two months!

Soldier 2: Erm Biff just got decapitated by that Genlock and they are still coming.

Calian: Oh Maker.

Even if he was willing to wait it would mean to give up the tactically defensible position of Ostagar and to fight them on even ground in the field which would have required far more manpower from Fereldan or Orlais eitherway you are basically upping the stakes while losing the very thing that made Ostagar even VAGUELY winnable in the first place.

3. We can do the Warden dance all night but i won't concede it and its clear you won't despite the lore being clear that the Warden's are tight lipped about why they are needed and every time an Archdemon fell they did have an army back from Dumat to the latest one.

[Master Warder Z_]

Veruin wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

This seems more like you refusing to acknowledge them and sticking to your points regardless

I'm curious as to why he completely ignores my post.

o.o It is something to Ponder isn't it?

But i must admit i grow tired of this debate even when it comes to a topic i have commented on for Years now.

[Zu Long]

Veruin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

The problem is that ending Blights is the only reason Wardens exist. It's the entire reason Kingdoms let the Wardens do pretty much whatever they want. Even Loghain, in the game, NEVER questions that a Grey Warden would be needed to kill an Archdemon. I'm pretty sure Duncan even says it outright at the war council. You guys are acting like the Wardens were just people who happened to be good at fighting Darkspawn. Just from the lore and codexs we know it's a lot more than that.

Landsmeet..

"It is indeed a blight Wulf...but do we need Grey Wardens to fight it?"
"They claim that they alone can end it"

You are also acting like the Wardens aren't super secretive pricks.  Duncan shanked Jory just because Jory knew too much.

Link to where he says it.

Why would he ask this if Duncan supposedly told him?  It's because he didn't.  Unless you plan on telling me loghain lied about it.

I missed this earlier, which I feel bad about, but really are you suggesting Loghain wouldn't lie to the faces of the Arls when he told them A) the Grey Wardens kidnapped the queen, and the Grey Wardens betrayed and killed Cailan? And those are just two. We could go down the whole list of things Loghain lies about during the landsmeet (It's long) but it's pretty clear he's willing to twist things any way he can to hold on to power.

And yes, he Questions both the fact of the blight and that Grey Wardens are necessary--but that just goes to show that the Grey Wardens ending the blight is established common knowledge. Whether Loghain truly disbelieves it, or is just talking out the side of his mouth is irrelevant to the question at hand, which is was he was wise to disregard what he knew about the Wardens killing the Archdemon and ending the Blight? We know for sure he was not.

[dragonflight288]

Aaleel wrote...

Ailith430 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

If it were the wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on their heads. His actions after the decision answer this question pretty simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was the only thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.

I'm pretty sure that his blaming the Wardens for Ostagar was premeditated. It's WHY he retreated, it was planned, he wanted to prevent the Wardens from having any control/power over fighting the blight, because he knew they would encourage an alliance with Orlais (which Cailan already had, which Loghain probably knew about, and is probably why he didn't feel too bad about killing him.)

That's what I was saying pretty much.  I meant to say whether or not the battle was winnable "WAS NOT" the only thing he weighed, bad typo.

Did you guys know that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make deals with darkspawn that would doom humanity in The Calling?

[Morroian]

Why is a DAO debate posted in the DAI forum without even an attempt to tie it into DAI? All of this has been debated ad nauseum before.

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

The problem is that ending Blights is the only reason Wardens exist. It's the entire reason Kingdoms let the Wardens do pretty much whatever they want. Even Loghain, in the game, NEVER questions that a Grey Warden would be needed to kill an Archdemon. I'm pretty sure Duncan even says it outright at the war council. You guys are acting like the Wardens were just people who happened to be good at fighting Darkspawn. Just from the lore and codexs we know it's a lot more than that.

Landsmeet..

"It is indeed a blight Wulf...but do we need Grey Wardens to fight it?"
"They claim that they alone can end it"

You are also acting like the Wardens aren't super secretive pricks.  Duncan shanked Jory just because Jory knew too much.

Link to where he says it.

Why would he ask this if Duncan supposedly told him?  It's because he didn't.  Unless you plan on telling me loghain lied about it.

I missed this earlier, which I feel bad about, but really are you suggesting Loghain wouldn't lie to the faces of the Arls when he told them A) the Grey Wardens kidnapped the queen, and the Grey Wardens betrayed and killed Cailan? And those are just two. We could go down the whole list of things Loghain lies about during the landsmeet (It's long) but it's pretty clear he's willing to twist things any way he can to hold on to power.

And yes, he Questions both the fact of the blight and that Grey Wardens are necessary--but that just goes to show that the Grey Wardens ending the blight is established common knowledge. Whether Loghain truly disbelieves it, or is just talking out the side of his mouth is irrelevant to the question at hand, which is was he was wise to disregard what he knew about the Wardens killing the Archdemon and ending the Blight? We know for sure he was not.

I didn't glean that at all from that.

And again you weave from the point of a handful of wardens some how being worth more then thousands of normal warriors when you don't know WHY they are critical.

It doesn't make sense from a historical or military perspective to assume that just because the elf struck the final blow, even after it likely being pelted with mage fire, arrows and being just obliterated by an Army that the Elf striking that blow made it magically explode and the Horde to retreat.

.-. Perhaps if it wasn't for the fact that EVERY single time a Archdemon fell it happened in the presence of an Army your point might have creedance but that isn't what occured within Thedas.

Every single time, an Archdemon was engaged by both Wardens and Others, Presumbly soldiers that heavily outnumbered the Wardens. Yes the Wardens are recognized as Vanquishers of the Blight, And those that have slain countless Darkspawn and even Archdemons but because of their sercecy their truth worth isn't know and therefore hidden from most's perspectives.

Therefore even those educated in history and war which Loghain wasn't by the way given that he lived as a Poacher and Rebel for a good portion of his life, Wouldn't recognize a Warden's contribution to felling a beast over the hundreds if not thousands that were battling it along with them.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Ailith430 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

If it were the wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on their heads. His actions after the decision answer this question pretty simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was the only thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.

I'm pretty sure that his blaming the Wardens for Ostagar was premeditated. It's WHY he retreated, it was planned, he wanted to prevent the Wardens from having any control/power over fighting the blight, because he knew they would encourage an alliance with Orlais (which Cailan already had, which Loghain probably knew about, and is probably why he didn't feel too bad about killing him.)

That's what I was saying pretty much.  I meant to say whether or not the battle was winnable "WAS NOT" the only thing he weighed, bad typo.

Did you guys know that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make deals with darkspawn that would doom humanity in The Calling?

I did!

Although i always wandered what would happen if all of Humanity did become like the Wardens...Would peaceful Co-Existance actually work?

But this isn't the place for that little thought.

[Veruin]

Zu Long wrote...

I missed this earlier, which I feel bad about, but really are you suggesting Loghain wouldn't lie to the faces of the Arls when he told them A) the Grey Wardens kidnapped the queen, and the Grey Wardens betrayed and killed Cailan? And those are just two. We could go down the whole list of things Loghain lies about during the landsmeet (It's long) but it's pretty clear he's willing to twist things any way he can to hold on to power.

And yes, he Questions both the fact of the blight and that Grey Wardens are necessary--but that just goes to show that the Grey Wardens ending the blight is established common knowledge. Whether Loghain truly disbelieves it, or is just talking out the side of his mouth is irrelevant to the question at hand, which is was he was wise to disregard what he knew about the Wardens killing the Archdemon and ending the Blight? We know for sure he was not.

From his point of view... yea.  He does believe they kidnapped her.  Wardens enter Howe's estate, slay him, daughter goes missing, and he knows it's the wardens since they either get captured or slay his second in command.

Again, from his point of view, Grey wardens who want to bring in Chevaliars.  Loghain does not know the tower is over run and assumes the wardens delayed it on purpose.

You're thinking of Anora, not Loghain.

It's a legend/story that they ended the blights.  There are no confirmed cases because Duncan never opened his damn mouth.  This is where that secrecy bull**** bites them in the arse.

[Zu Long]

Master Warder Z wrote...

1.

Erm in the very scene he orders the retreat he glances back at the battlefield which is to his back...



Point two I think this about sums it up: 

Calian: Is that the Horde approaching?

Soldier 1: It is indeed sire.

Calian: HOW DARE THEY! We are still awaiting my reinforcements which are several weeks away! Tell them to return in two months!

Soldier 2: Erm Biff just got decapitated by that Genlock and they are still coming.

Calian: Oh Maker.

Even if he was willing to wait it would mean to give up the tactically defensible position of Ostagar and to fight them on even ground in the field which would have required far more manpower from Fereldan or Orlais eitherway you are basically upping the stakes while losing the very thing that made Ostagar even VAGUELY winnable in the first place.

3. We can do the Warden dance all night but i won't concede it and its clear you won't despite the lore being clear that the Warden's are tight lipped about why they are needed and every time an Archdemon fell they did have an army back from Dumat to the latest one.

1.



Relevant part starts at 2:57, ends at 3:30. We are provided TWO shots of Loghain's viewpoint, and both show only the watchtower. The incline in his head at both the beginning, and the end shows that's what he was looking at. Not the battle. He can't SEE the battle. The troops behind him are the ambushing force.

2. Ostagar was never winnable. Loghain thought fighting there was foolish, and so, we are told later, did Cailan. The reason they DO fight there is politics. Loghain wants to wait for the rest of Ferelden. Cailan suggest they can also have Orlesians fight. Loghain doesn't want to let Orlesians fight, so Cailan asks him for another plan, at which point Loghain suggests the plan they use, which he doesn't think much of since he doesn't want Cailan to go. Cailan wants to act the king and wants an alliance with Orlais, so he insists on being in the thick of it to force Loghain, whom he thinks loves him like a son, to come rescue him. In the face of depleted manpower, Ferelden will have no choice but accept cailan's alliance to Orlais

We KNOW parts of that are true from the lore, The rest of it is conjecture because it's the only way I can make sense of what happened at the planning meeting we see, and what we're told later in RtO. If you have a better theory that makes the pieces fit, be my guest.

3. I really don't see what you've got on this one. A) Loghain was told it was a Blight. Loghain was told only a Warden could defeat the archdemon which ends the blight. C) Loghain knew this had happened four other times, and a Warden was the deathblow each time. It is general knowledge that Wardens destroy blights, and SOMEONE in the deep dark past gave Wardens political authority to do pretty much whatever they want because of it. Loghain ignored that information. For whatever reason, he ignored it. That was the WRONG DECISION. End of story.

Modifié par Zu Long, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:51 .

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Ailith430 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

If it were the wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on their heads. His actions after the decision answer this question pretty simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was the only thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.

I'm pretty sure that his blaming the Wardens for Ostagar was premeditated. It's WHY he retreated, it was planned, he wanted to prevent the Wardens from having any control/power over fighting the blight, because he knew they would encourage an alliance with Orlais (which Cailan already had, which Loghain probably knew about, and is probably why he didn't feel too bad about killing him.)

That's what I was saying pretty much.  I meant to say whether or not the battle was winnable "WAS NOT" the only thing he weighed, bad typo.

Did you guys know that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make deals with darkspawn that would doom humanity in The Calling?

I did!

Although i always wandered what would happen if all of Humanity did become like the Wardens...Would peaceful Co-Existance actually work?

But this isn't the place for that little thought.

The Architect's plan wouldn't make people like Wardens, but would turn everyone on the surface into ghouls. He didn't really understand it, and does have good intentions for his own people, but I don't think he really understands how much harm he can do to the surface.

However, with Loghain witnessing that, that gives Loghain a legitimate reason to suspect the Wardens of aiding the darkspawn. He's seen them already do it.

[Zu Long]

Veruin wrote...

From his point of view... yea.  He does believe they kidnapped her.  Wardens enter Howe's estate, slay him, daughter goes missing, and he knows it's the wardens since they either get captured or slay his second in command.

Again, from his point of view, Grey wardens who want to bring in Chevaliars.  Loghain does not know the tower is over run and assumes the wardens delayed it on purpose.

You're thinking of Anora, not Loghain.

It's a legend/story that they ended the blights.  There are no confirmed cases because Duncan never opened his damn mouth.  This is where that secrecy bull**** bites them in the arse.

He was keeping Anora, the lawful queen LOCKED IN HIS DUNGEON AGAINST HER WILL. Unless the argument is that he's insane, claiming the Wardens kidnapped her is a lie.

He said the WARDENS betrayed and killed Cailan at Ostagar.

Look, there's a certain amount of Obi-Wan's "from a certain point of view" I can handle, but you can't be serious. Loghain knew he was lying his butt off on both counts.

For the millionth time, whether he really thought the Wardens were necessary or not is, at heart, irrelevant to the question asked. The question the topic asks is did he make the right call given what he knew at the time, and the answer is NO. He was told the Wardens were necessary, he was told it was a blight, he knew what the old stories said, and he MADE THE WRONG CALL.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Ailith430 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

If it were the wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on their heads. His actions after the decision answer this question pretty simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was the only thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.

I'm pretty sure that his blaming the Wardens for Ostagar was premeditated. It's WHY he retreated, it was planned, he wanted to prevent the Wardens from having any control/power over fighting the blight, because he knew they would encourage an alliance with Orlais (which Cailan already had, which Loghain probably knew about, and is probably why he didn't feel too bad about killing him.)

That's what I was saying pretty much.  I meant to say whether or not the battle was winnable "WAS NOT" the only thing he weighed, bad typo.

Did you guys know that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make deals with darkspawn that would doom humanity in The Calling?

I did!

Although i always wandered what would happen if all of Humanity did become like the Wardens...Would peaceful Co-Existance actually work?

But this isn't the place for that little thought.

The Architect's plan wouldn't make people like Wardens, but would turn everyone on the surface into ghouls. He didn't really understand it, and does have good intentions for his own people, but I don't think he really understands how much harm he can do to the surface.

However, with Loghain witnessing that, that gives Loghain a legitimate reason to suspect the Wardens of aiding the darkspawn. He's seen them already do it.

I thought that late into their callings that Warden's actually turned into some varient of Ghoul or what have you.

That was what i meant.

[Zu Long]

You know, Loghain also saw Duncan, the guy who was telling him this was a real blight, help stop the Architect in that adventure. Whatever he thought of the Wardens as a whole, one would have thought Duncan at least seemed trustworthy.

Modifié par Zu Long, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:02 .