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[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

1.

Erm in the very scene he orders the retreat he glances back at the battlefield which is to his back...



Point two I think this about sums it up: 

Calian: Is that the Horde approaching?

Soldier 1: It is indeed sire.

Calian: HOW DARE THEY! We are still awaiting my reinforcements which are several weeks away! Tell them to return in two months!

Soldier 2: Erm Biff just got decapitated by that Genlock and they are still coming.

Calian: Oh Maker.

Even if he was willing to wait it would mean to give up the tactically defensible position of Ostagar and to fight them on even ground in the field which would have required far more manpower from Fereldan or Orlais eitherway you are basically upping the stakes while losing the very thing that made Ostagar even VAGUELY winnable in the first place.

3. We can do the Warden dance all night but i won't concede it and its clear you won't despite the lore being clear that the Warden's are tight lipped about why they are needed and every time an Archdemon fell they did have an army back from Dumat to the latest one.

1. Having done a glance over at the video i have to say



Relevant part starts at 2:57, ends at 3:30. We are provided TWO shots of Loghain's viewpoint, and both show only the watchtower. The incline in his head at both the beginning, and the end shows that what he was looking at. Not the battle. He can't SEE the battle. The troops behind him are the ambushing force.

2. Ostagar was never winnable. Loghain thought fighting there was foolish, and so, we are told later, did Cailan. The reason they DO fight there is politics. Loghain wants to wait for the rest of Ferelden. Cailan suggest they can also have Orlesians fight. Loghain doesn't want to let Orlesians fight, so Cailan asks him for another plan, at which point Loghain suggests the plan they use, which he doesn't think much of since he doesn't want Cailan to go. Cailan is wants to act the king and wants an alliance with Orlais, so he insists on being in the thick of it to force Loghain, whom he thinks loves him like a son, to come rescue him. In the face of depleted manpower, Ferelden will have no choice but accept cailan's alliance to Orlais

We KNOW parts of that are true from the lore, The rest of it is conjecture because it's the only way I can make sense of what happened at the planning meeting we see, and what we're told later in RtO. If you have a better theory that makes the pieces fit, be my guest.

3. I really don't see what you've got on this one. A) Loghain was told it was a Blight. Loghain was told only a Warden could defeat the archdemon which ends the blight. C) Loghain knew this had happened four other times, and a Warden was the deathblow each time. It is general knowledge that Wardens destroy blights, and SOMEONE in the deep dark past gave Wardens political authority to do pretty much whatever they want because of it. Loghain ignored that information. For whatever reason, he ignored it. That was the WRONG DECISION. End of story.

www.youtube.com/watch

1. Hrm i diagree considering that those very large scones you see in the background are later scene from the upward view of the battle field in 0:41. Those clearly resemble the same scones presented earlier in the video from 0:11 to 0:19. This could merely be Bioware reskinning enviroments but with out further evidence i would agrue that that Loghain had a clear line of sight to the field which makes sense considering that he would have to be arrayed from in FRONT of the tower of Isal for it to work as a flank.

Box Canyon and all, He would have to approach the lines from their rear which points him opposite of the Tower of Isal which makes sense that he would he looking as he was when the video picks up.



2.  I notice you sort of backtracked away from the Orlais point ,good. However I don't wish to agrue Conjecture when this entire thread is just conjecture about personal musings on conjecture. I already gave my points on this many times before.

3. Not really the end of story considering there is far more to it then that. They were given Authority because they were aquiring victories, not because the Archdemon magically fell to them, No it took a good portion of the Tveinter Army to do that. Secondly  he was informed it was a blight some one representing an order he has personal reason to distrust, from a person he has personal reason to distrust, Furthermore  with out knowing the secrets of the Wardens that claim only reeks of Bedtime stories and Bravado and nothing more.

So it wasn't the wrong decision, it was correct from his perspective.

End of story.

[Joy Divison]

Zu Long wrote...

I find people who defend Loghain's actions at Ostagar misinterpret a number of factors about the battle. The following factors are critical to coming to a correct conclusion about Loghain's actions-

1. Loghain couldn't see the battle from where he was.

Wrong.  Watch the scene where he gives the order to retreat.  Note the horde of darkspawn overwhelming the battlefield visible from his vantagepoint.

2. Loghain is the only reason the Ferelden soldiers are so horribly outnumbered in the first place.

Only?  Wrong.
Duncan: "Your Uncle sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliffe forces could be here in less than a week"
Cailan: "Hmmpf.  Eamon just wants in on the glory.  We've won three battles against these mosnters and tomorrow should be no different."

3. In the face of a Blight, the only tactically relevant force is the Grey Wardens.

You incorrectly assume that Everyone knew this was a blight.  Play the game again.  Even Cailan - who desperately wants this to be a blight - says "I'm not even sure this is a true blight."  No archdeamon was spotted - both Cailan and Loghain say this.

The Wardens knew but elected not to let the Ferelden army leadership on the secret.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:13 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Zu Long wrote...

You know, Loghain also saw Duncan, the guy who telling him this was a real blight, help stop the Architect in that adventure. Whatever he thought of the Wardens as a whole, one would have thought Duncan at least seemed trustworthy.

After being one of the Wardens to drag Maric off on that Adventure?

No.

He was probably lucky he escaped that moment with his head on his shoulders.

[jamesp81]

Ailith430 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

If it were the wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on their heads. His actions after the decision answer this question pretty simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was the only thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.

I'm pretty sure that his blaming the Wardens for Ostagar was premeditated. It's WHY he retreated, it was planned, he wanted to prevent the Wardens from having any control/power over fighting the blight, because he knew they would encourage an alliance with Orlais (which Cailan already had, which Loghain probably knew about, and is probably why he didn't feel too bad about killing him.)

In these situations, I always revert to the rule of making it personal in role playing games.

He harmed me and mine, so it's personal, and he's going to pay.

[Zu Long]

Master Warder Z wrote...


www.youtube.com/watch

1. Hrm i diagree considering that those very large scones you see in the background are later scene from the upward view of the battle field in 0:41. Those clearly resemble the same scones presented earlier in the video from 0:11 to 0:19. This could merely be Bioware reskinning enviroments but with out further evidence i would agrue that that Loghain had a clear line of sight to the field which makes sense considering that he would have to be arrayed from in FRONT of the tower of Isal for it to work as a flank.

Box Canyon and all, He would have to approach the lines from their rear which points him opposite of the Tower of Isal which makes sense that he would he looking as he was when the video picks up.



2.  I notice you sort of backtracked away from the Orlais point ,good. However I don't wish to agrue Conjecture when this entire thread is just conjecture about personal musings on conjecture. I already gave my points on this many times before.

3. Not really the end of story considering there is far more to it then that. They were given Authority because they were aquiring victories, not because the Archdemon magically fell to them, No it took a good portion of the Tveinter Army to do that. Secondly  he was informed it was a blight some one representing an order he has personal reason to distrust, from a person he has personal reason to distrust, Furthermore  with out knowing the secrets of the Wardens that claim only reeks of Bedtime stories and Bravado and nothing more.

So it wasn't the wrong decision, it was correct from his perspective.

End of story.

1. That's incorrect. He's at the front of his army looking toward the signal. Loghain is far enough back that his army is concealed from the Darkspawn. They can't see him and don't know he's there. By the same token, he can't see them. That's the whole point of the tower. Once the darkspawn engage, the tower is lit, and the Trap is sprung. That's the only way the battle plan makes any sense. And given that we can't see the battle from Loghain's viewpoint in either cutscene, that's what the game shows.

2. I didn't backtrack so much as explain. If Loghain allows Orlais to be part of the battle, Cailan waits for them to arrive, and the Battle at Ostagar doesn't happen. Thus, NOT allowing Orlais in due to personal enmity was a tactical error.

3. They were given Authority because the Archdemon DID magically fall to them, actually. Especially in the first Blight, where Dumas kept coming back whenever anyone ELSE killed him. Agaiin, personal distrust does not excuse or explain tactical blunders. He had the info he needed to make the right call. He didn't make the right call. His perspective is irrelevant to the tactical realities of the decision he made, especially considering what was at stake. It's possible to find him sympthetic, since that's more opinion, but it doesn't change the facts I've laid out.

Modifié par Zu Long, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:19 .

[Zu Long]

Joy Divison wrote...

Wrong.  Watch the scene where he gives the order to retreat.  Note the horde of darkspawn overwhelming the battlefield visible from his vantagepoint.

Wrong. I posted a link on the previous page and listed the times. The battle is never seen from Loghain's perspective. only the tower, because that's the signal.

Only?  Wrong.
Duncan: "Your Uncle sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliffe forces could be here in less than a week"
Cailan: "Hmmpf.  Eamon just wants in on the glory.  We've won three battles against these mosnters and tomorrow should be no different."

Wrong. See Return to Ostagar where we learn that Cailan is lying his butt off in that scene, thought Ostagar was a lost cause, and wanted reinforcements from Orlais. He was protecting Eamon's troops from a battle he knew he would lose. See prior page for my theory of why politics between Cailan and Loghain caused Ostagar.

You incorrectly assume that Everyone knew this was a blight.  Play the game again.  Even Cailan - who desperately wants this to be a blight - says "I'm not even sure this is a true blight."  No archdeamon was spotted - both Cailan and Loghain say this.

The Wardens knew but elected not to let the Ferelden army leadership on the secret.

Loghain says no Dragon was spotted, but only in response to Duncan telling him they should be prepared for it to appear. I don't see how that's the Wardens holding back. Cailan only responds that he's not sure because Duncan mentions that it IS a blight. Again, in Return to Ostagar, it's made pretty clear that Cailan knew darn well it was a real blight and that his army was toast. The Wardens in Orlais told the Empress they were SURE of it, and she tells Cailan in her letter to him. Loghain knew what the Wardens were saying, knew that Duncan was telling him the Archdemon could appear. That he did not believe or disregarded for political purposes is irrelevant. Abandoning the battle and letting all the Ferelden Wardens die was tactically wrong, and he should have known it.

[Zu Long]

Holy cow, have I really been arguing this for four hours? That's it, I'm done.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zu Long wrote...

You incorrectly assume that Everyone knew this was a blight.  Play the game again.  Even Cailan - who desperately wants this to be a blight - says "I'm not even sure this is a true blight."  No archdeamon was spotted - both Cailan and Loghain say this.

The Wardens knew but elected not to let the Ferelden army leadership on the secret.

Loghain says no Dragon was spotted, but only in response to Duncan telling him they should be prepared for it to appear. I don't see how that's the Wardens holding back. Cailan only responds that he's not sure because Duncan mentions that it IS a blight. Again, in Return to Ostagar, it's made pretty clear that Cailan knew darn well it was a real blight and that his army was toast. The Wardens in Orlais told the Empress they were SURE of it, and she tells Cailan in her letter to him. Loghain knew what the Wardens were saying, knew that Duncan was telling him the Archdemon could appear. That he did not believe or disregarded for political purposes is irrelevant. Abandoning the battle and letting all the Ferelden Wardens die was tactically wrong, and he should have known it.

That's only true if you accept that the Wardens would know, which Duncan gave no reason to believe they would. Alistair says that everyone assumed Duncan was guessing, and unless you know the nature of the Joining (and unless I'm missing something Loghain didn't) that's more plausible than the alternative.

Furthermore, your assertion that Loghain should have known a Warden is necessary is fallacious for the same reason. Unless you know exactly why the Archdemon stays dead when a Warden kills it (which is kept even from some of the Wardens), you can be forgiven for thinking that necessary is an exaggeration.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 janvier 2014 - 05:16 .

[Dave of Canada]

Grey Wardens were fairly incompetent in the situation, they keep their prized secrets away from monarchs and their generals when the entire plan should've revolved around the Grey Wardens to begin with. I'm fairly certain everyone believes the Joining is nothing but a grueling exercise to see whether or not you're a competent fighter, they'd have no reason to believe any Grey Warden who goes "Their might be an archdemon but I won't say why".

I can understand keeping it secret from the common-folk for the sake of recruitment but the Grey Warden idea of "get **** done no matter the cost" is stupid when they're not willing to step on their own toes and is willing to condemn everyone else.

While Loghain and Cailan are planning for a large incursion that isn't a blight, Duncan is sitting there twiddling his thumbs and thinking "Oh boy, they're in for a surprise!" while doing a half-assed effort to make sure they prepare without telling them what they're preparing for.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Haven't we proved you few pages ago that Loghain's retreat was strategically right?

[TEWR]

Wrong. I posted a link on the previous page and listed the times. The battle is never seen from Loghain's perspective. only the tower, because that's the signal.

Word of God established years ago that Loghain could see the king's forces.

Wrong. See Return to Ostagar where we learn that Cailan is lying his butt off in that scene, thought Ostagar was a lost cause, and wanted reinforcements from Orlais. He was protecting Eamon's troops from a battle he knew he would lose. See prior page for my theory of why politics between Cailan and Loghain caused Ostagar.

And who's to say Redcliffe's troops wouldn't have made a difference? If you know a battle's a lost cause, you DON'T go out and meet the enemy head on anyway. More so when you examine how Cailan engaged in battle. Loghain tells him to lure the Darkspawn to him.

What does Cailan do? Oh he decides to fire ONE volley of arrows, then wastes the Mabari hounds, before finally sending his men out into the open exposing them on the sides and the front rather then keeping them in the back with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks. By doing what he did, he risked a double envelopment.

Ideally, remaining with Ostagar's walls on the sides would've been best with a phalanx formation extending far back, and archers in the back firing continuously.

And if you know a battle isn't going to be won with what you have, you send out the call to bring them in.

Are we really going to try and claim Cailan was wise for going into battle knowing he'd fail? When he couldn't even name an heir/heiress should he fall in battle? Cailan is not wise, he's a manchild, obsessed with glory which is why he wanted to end the battle in one glorious battle to speak of for generations.

The man shunned tactical meetings with his general for Christ's sake!

If he really knew the battle was a lost cause, he would've pulled all his men into the fortress rather then have them deployed in the field and force his general to come up with a plan that involves going out onto the field.

Loghain says no Dragon was spotted, but only in response to Duncan telling him they should be prepared for it to appear. I don't see how that's the Wardens holding back.

How about mentioning how an Archdemon can only be slain by a Warden, otherwise a Blight will continue? In a private meeting between King, General, and Warden of course. Or in a private meeting saying "Yeah we drink Darkspawn blood. It gets us connected to the Darkspawn hive mind and we are thus certain of when it is and isn't a Blight."

Simply saying "Dude, this is a Blight. Trust me, I can feel the Archdemon." isn't enough, because it can be misinterpreted (and WAS) as simply guessing.

Similar to the feeling you get if someone's behind you, whether it's right or not.

Loghain knew what the Wardens were saying,

Considering Loghain doesn't say to Riordan "Yup, I know Wardens need to strike the final blow because otherwise **** doesn't change", yeah.... no he didn't know.

What you fail to address is why Duncan would tell Loghain, yet fail to tell Alistair who has been a Warden for six months and is dedicated to the Order. It's made abundantly clear that Warden secrets do not leave the Wardens (which is why they're idiots half the time).

[TEWR]

I'm fairly certain everyone believes the Joining is nothing but a grueling exercise to see whether or not you're a competent fighter, they'd have no reason to believe any Grey Warden who goes "Their might be an archdemon but I won't say why".

Pretty much. Jory thought that was what it was, as did the guard at the gate. But they're not people of importance, granted.

Strangely, the only person that does know what it is outside of the Wardens is Brother Genitivi in the Soldier's Peak codex. That was never addressed as to how he found that out.

[TEWR]

[quote]Aaleel wrote...

If it were the
wisest move at the time I figure Loghain would have stood buy it instead
of blaming the Wardens for the entire debacle and putting bounties on
their heads.[/quote]

He did stand by it. But he also believes that the Wardens, through neglecting to temper Cailan's hotheadedness and their secrecy, had reverted back to serving the interests of Orlais as they had historically done prior to the Third Blight. By not telling him to cool off, they were effectively goading him into battle, inflaming his passion that the Wardens would be enough, which prompted Cailan to charge into the fray when Loghain told him to simply lure the Darkspawn to him.

Factor in the delay of the beacon. We, the players, know why this was but Loghain does not have that luxury. Because the beacon's lighting was delayed, and because it was lit at a time when Cailan's men were cracking, Loghain believes this to be a deliberate plot devised to get Ferelden's king and general killed in battle under a mindset of "save the king" going on.

But the fact is that people would have given him the narrow-eyed look, because he got out and the king didn't. He's always stood by it, but people aren't going to believe just that. They should, but as we see through Teagan -- and the Bannorn as a whole that goes against Loghain -- they believe politics trumps an invasion of Darkspawn (which Loghain acknowledged immediately as being paramount in that same cutscene). So he also informs them of how the Wardens were partially responsible for Ostagar's failure.

And they were. All of them. Including the PC, which pisses me off at how I can't even really interact in the war meeting in a meaningful form or call Cailan out on his bull****. Doesn't have to change anything, but it's important to RP.

His actions after the decision answer this question pretty
simply for me. Whether the battle was winnable or not was the only
thing he weighed when making his decision.

Plus no one knows the numbers for each side so how can anyone say for sure anyway.[/quote]

[Zu Long]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's only true if you accept that the Wardens would know, which Duncan gave no reason to believe they would. Alistair says that everyone assumed Duncan was guessing, and unless you know the nature of the Joining (and unless I'm missing something Loghain didn't) that's more plausible than the alternative.

Furthermore, your assertion that Loghain should have known a Warden is necessary is fallacious for the same reason. Unless you know exactly why the Archdemon stays dead when a Warden kills it (which is kept even from some of the Wardens), you can be forgiven for thinking that necessary is an exaggeration.

People assumed Duncan was guessing that it was a real blight, but that doesn't change the fact that he was telling people it was the real deal. As I said earlier, with Ferelden on the line, I forgive NOTHING. Four blights. FOUR. Showing exactly what happens to a country when a Blight takes hold. Loghain new darn well what the consequences of being wrong would be. Against a threat like that, you don't take chances. I say again- He had four precedents, he had an expert in front of him telling him what was happening, he knew the same legends everyone else knew. He chose wrong.

[Dea Lily]

. . . I can’t believe that I (a dedicated lurker) am involving myself in this but I have a few thoughts that I feel need to be mentioned and considered. (And really? I blame you people. All this stuff about Eamon only popped into mind once I started reading this thread.)

Eamon

Now I know Duncan told Cailan that “Your uncle sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliffe forces could be here {Ostagar} in less than a week.” But I find quite a few issues with that statement.

• Duncan and the Warden didn’t stop in Redcliffe on their way to Ostagar so Duncan must gotten this message before he recruited the Warden. Meaning that this message is a least several weeks out of date.
• With the way it is phrased I can can only think of two conclusions:

[/list]

• Either the distance between Ostagar and Redcliffe is less than a week of travel (in which case you think Redcliffe would’ve had more Darkspawn issues on top of the walking dead).
• Or Eamon’s forces are on their way already and should be at Ostagar soon (in which case Eamon must have given Duncan an estimate of when his forces would head to Ostagar).

• Redcliffe is closer to Ostagar than any place the Warden could’ve been recruited (except possibly the Dalish Origin), so the army at Ostagar should have newer information on Redcliffe than Duncan.

[/list]We know several things from talking to Ser Donall in Lothering:

• “The arl is stricken with an illness that threatens his life. We have found no cure, either natural or magical.” Sounds like a pretty heavy duty poisoning to me, can’t be much doubt that Loghain wants him dead. Also that they tried both methods, mundane and magical, before searching for the Ashes and that should take sometime.
• Eamon ‘fell sick’ “only a few weeks ago, but he has declined quickly.” And this was in Lothering, remember. So to me it sounds like Eamon was poisoned before the battle at Ostagar (and possible by more than a small amount of time). Also, Donall’s fellow Knight Henric had at least enough time to learn about Brother Genitivi.
• “Every Knight of Redcliffe has gone in search of the Urn of Sacred Ashes.” Hum, sounds to me like Redcliffe forces were actually a little too busy doing other things to be heading to Ostagar . . .

[/list]Anyway, getting back to my point with all those facts. I believe that Eamon was poisoned before the battle at Ostagar and I also believe that it was quite possible that Cailan had received news about his uncle being ill and knew that Redcliffe’s forces just weren’t coming. (And then proceeded not to mention it for several possible reasons.)
(And yes, that would mean that Loghain was not only against waiting for the reinforcements from Orlais, but also is (at least partly) responsible for the Redcliffe forces not being at the battle. Mind you, he couldn’t have know that Redcliffe’s Knight would go off chasing a legend, but with their arl being in such a state the forces would’ve been weakened even if they did show up. Could be just me, but I’m not seeing the strategic sense in that move (at least not against the Darkspawn).)


The Blight

Warning: I’ve only skimmed through The Stolen Throne and The Calling (and I really do need to find the time to read them more thoroughly) so I might be off on this. But, it always seemed to me that Loghain refused to admit the Blight because of Flemeth’s other ‘Prophecy’. After all, if she was right about a Blight happening in Ferelden (one that Maric wouldn’t live to see ) then maybe she was right about she said about Loghain himself, “Keep him close, and he will betray you. Each time worse than the last.” And I think for Loghain the thought that Flemeth might have been right in her warning Maric of him was just something that he couldn’t bare.


So to get back to the threads topic. Do I believe Loghain was wise in his decision to retreat?
Well, giving the circumstances at the time, yes. The Darkspawn Horde was larger, much larger, than expected, Cailan did what Cailan did {}, and then the beacon was lit late.
(I also believe that waiting for reinforcements from Orlais or the Redcliffe forces really wouldn’t have mattered. ‘Cause to me it looked like the Darkspawn were attacking them, not the other way around.)
Do I still think it was also treasonous? Yeah, pretty much. Because the stuff with Eamon shows that he was plotting something. (Actually, I’m currently wondering if he was planning on weakening and undermining Cailan’s support base for the next Landsmeet . . . )

Anyway, just felt the urge to share (especially after I spent time looking up facts), so there you go. Sorry about the wall of text though . . . I just can't seem to help myself . . .

(Also I absolutely loathe Dragon Age timelines. <_<)
(And appearently I'm bad at formatting . . . )

Modifié par Dea Lily, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:33 .

[TEWR]

But I find quite a few issues with that statement. Duncan and the Warden didn’t stop in Redcliffe on their way to Ostagar so Duncan must gotten this message before he recruited the Warden.

We don't know that for certain. The quickest way to Ostagar from Orzammar or the Circle is to stop by Redcliffe.

Either the distance between Ostagar and Redcliffe is less than a week of travel (in which case you think Redcliffe would’ve had more Darkspawn issues on top of the walking dead)

That didn't happen until after Ostagar (the dead that is). Logistically, anyway, as Loghain was at Ostagar the entire time and didn't meet Jowan until he returned to Denerim (you hear about how the previous battles at Ostagar were won only thanks to Loghain's mind).

We know several things from talking to Ser Donall in Lothering:“The arl is stricken with an illness that threatens his life. We have found no cure, either natural or magical.” Sounds like a pretty heavy duty poisoning to me, can’t be much doubt that Loghain wants him dead

Nope! While Loghain did order Eamon poisoned, it was with a powerful poison thingy meant to render Eamon comatose, not kill him. While death was certainly possible, Loghain made sure that someone was kept in Redcliffe and would inform Loghain if Eamon was near death. At which point, the antidote would be sent off immediately. That said, if Eamon died before the antidote arrived, Loghain wouldn't have shed too many tears over it.

Furthermore, there was one wrench in this plan that would've made it so that Loghain wouldn't have been able to do what he intended for Eamon vis-a-vis the antidote: Howe. Since Berwick was under the orders of a man reporting to Howe and Howe is a man obsessed with gaining as much power as possible, he would've "forgotten" about this until Eamon passed on so that he could plot how to take Redcliffe for himself.

The Blight

Warning:
I’ve only skimmed through The Stolen Throne and The Calling (and I
really do need to find the time to read them more thoroughly) so I might
be off on this. But, it always seemed to me that Loghain refused to
admit the Blight because of Flemeth’s other ‘Prophecy’. After all, if
she was right about a Blight happening in Ferelden (one that Maric
wouldn’t live to see ) then maybe she was right about she said about Loghain himself, “Keep him close, and he will betray you. Each time worse than the last.” And I think for Loghain the thought that Flemeth might have been right in her warning Maric of him was just something that he couldn’t bare.

That's generally the commonly held belief and applied to Cailan, but I don't really see it myself because then he would've admitted that he did betray Maric by leaving Cailan to die. He never does.

Do I still think it was also treasonous? Yeah, pretty much. Because the stuff with Eamon shows that he was plotting something.
(Actually, I’m currently wondering if he was planning on weakening and
undermining Cailan’s support base for the next Landsmeet . . . )

He's never been one who desired power, so there's really no reason for him to try and erode support for Cailan. Not when he puts Maric and Maric's legacy up on a pedestal much like Alistair puts Duncan and the Wardens on a pedestal.

And I loathe Dragon Age's timeline

The Dragon Age timeline itself loathes Dragon Age's timeline.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:35 .

[Zu Long]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Word of God established years ago that Loghain could see the king's forces.

Gonna quote Gaidar here: (his first post listed in that string)

You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of
something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as
truth, after all.

Death of the Author and all that, right? However, I've always thought DotA was kind of baloney, so if you can find me a quote where he says Loghain can see the army, I'll accept it. Hint: He doesn't say it in there. Actually what's really interesting is that Return to Ostagar contradicts some of what Gaidar says in there, especially about Cailan. It's intriguing to see how an author's vision can change over time.

And who's to say Redcliffe's troops wouldn't have made a difference? If you know a battle's a lost cause, you DON'T go out and meet the enemy head on anyway. More so when you examine how Cailan engaged in battle. Loghain tells him to lure the Darkspawn to him.

What does Cailan do? Oh he decides to fire ONE volley of arrows, then wastes the Mabari hounds, before finally sending his men out into the open exposing them on the sides and the front rather then keeping them in the back with the walls of Ostagar protecting their left and right flanks. By doing what he did, he risked a double envelopment.

Ideally, remaining with Ostagar's walls on the sides would've been best with a phalanx formation extending far back, and archers in the back firing continuously.

And if you know a battle isn't going to be won with what you have, you send out the call to bring them in.

Are we really going to try and claim Cailan was wise for going into battle knowing he'd fail? When he couldn't even name an heir/heiress should he fall in battle? Cailan is not wise, he's a manchild, obsessed with glory which is why he wanted to end the battle in one glorious battle to speak of for generations.

The man shunned tactical meetings with his general for Christ's sake!

If he really knew the battle was a lost cause, he would've pulled all his men into the fortress rather then have them deployed in the field and force his general to come up with a plan that involves going out onto the field.

Which makes it interesting that in Return to Ostagar we're told point blank that he thought it was a lost cause, doesn't it? Even more than Word of God, this is actually in print. I've never called Cailan wise though, and if you actually read everything I wrote, you'll realize I think Cailan's political Machinations and wrangling helped cause Ostagar. This topic is whether LOGHAIN was tactically wise for what he did. (He wasn't) If you want to start a topic listing how Cailan or Duncan screwed up, I'll oblige you in there.

How about mentioning how an Archdemon can only be slain by a Warden, otherwise a Blight will continue? In a private meeting between King, General, and Warden of course. Or in a private meeting saying "Yeah we drink Darkspawn blood. It gets us connected to the Darkspawn hive mind and we are thus certain of when it is and isn't a Blight."

Simply saying "Dude, this is a Blight. Trust me, I can feel the Archdemon." isn't enough, because it can be misinterpreted (and WAS) as simply guessing.

Similar to the feeling you get if someone's behind you, whether it's right or not.

I'm just curious how telling Loghain, who we've established hates Grey Wardens, that the Wardens are part Darkspawn would have made him trust them more. The simple fact is he had the people that Ferelden keeps around specifically for a Blight, telling him there was a Blight, and saying they should be prepared for an Archdemon. I don't know how you claim someone made a wise move when he ignores his own experts. Again though, you're trying to change the subject. We are trying to establish if Loghain screwed up. He did. Did other people also screw up? Heck yeah. But ultimately, Loghain was the one who got 99% of the people who could stop the blight killed when he left a battle he couldn't see, refused aid from people he didn't like, and ignored all the advice he was getting about how it was a blight, and he needed the Wardens to stop it. Wise? Heck no.

Considering Loghain doesn't say to Riordan "Yup, I know Wardens need to strike the final blow because otherwise **** doesn't change", yeah.... no he didn't know.

What you fail to address is why Duncan would tell Loghain, yet fail to tell Alistair who has been a Warden for six months and is dedicated to the Order. It's made abundantly clear that Warden secrets do not leave the Wardens (which is why they're idiots half the time).

Nowhere will you see me say Loghain knew exactly what would happen when the Archdemon was killed. But Wardens killed the other four Archdemons. Wardens were created to stop blights. Killing the Archdemon was, as Cailan put it, "what you're here for." Loghain knew, or should have known, that he needed the Wardens. The retreat was unwise.

Modifié par Zu Long, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:36 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zu Long wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's only true if you accept that the Wardens would know, which Duncan gave no reason to believe they would. Alistair says that everyone assumed Duncan was guessing, and unless you know the nature of the Joining (and unless I'm missing something Loghain didn't) that's more plausible than the alternative.

Furthermore, your assertion that Loghain should have known a Warden is necessary is fallacious for the same reason. Unless you know exactly why the Archdemon stays dead when a Warden kills it (which is kept even from some of the Wardens), you can be forgiven for thinking that necessary is an exaggeration.

People assumed Duncan was guessing that it was a real blight, but that doesn't change the fact that he was telling people it was the real deal. As I said earlier, with Ferelden on the line, I forgive NOTHING. Four blights. FOUR. Showing exactly what happens to a country when a Blight takes hold. Loghain new darn well what the consequences of being wrong would be. Against a threat like that, you don't take chances. I say again- He had four precedents, he had an expert in front of him telling him what was happening, he knew the same legends everyone else knew. He chose wrong.

Part of the reason Loghain and Cailan didn't think it was a Blight is because they knew those legends, and said legends did not line up with what Loghain and Cailan were facing. They were winning for most of their time at Ostagar. Blights are supposed to take the combined might of several countries. So far, a single small country was holding its own reasonably well.

But since you do have some point about Loghain and Cailan not being pessimistic enough, I'll concede that. You have yet to answer, however, why Loghain should have known the Wardens were necessary. Or rather, you have yet to answer why it's Loghain's fault he didn't, since everyone arguing against you is already handling why Loghain should know they're necessary.

Zu Long wrote...

Nowhere will you see me say Loghain knew exactly what would happen when the Archdemon was killed. But Wardens killed the other four Archdemons. Wardens were created to stop blights. Killing the Archdemon was, as Cailan put it, "what you're here for." Loghain knew, or should have known, that he needed the Wardens. The retreat was unwise.

You can't make that concession and still stand by the argument that Loghain should have known they were necessary. Even the Wardens admit that if it weren't for the Archdemon's immortality thing, normal soldiers would be enough to do the job. In the context of Loghain not knowing that, and having a lot of ordinary soldiers, there was no way for him to see the problem.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:40 .

[dragonflight288]

Eamon ‘fell sick’ “only a few weeks ago, but he has declined quickly.” And this was in Lothering, remember. So to me it sounds like Eamon was poisoned before the battle at Ostagar (and possible by more than a small amount of time). Also, Donall’s fellow Knight Henric had at least enough time to learn about Brother Genitivi.

I would like to point out that we don't know how long our Warden and Alistair were recovering from their injuries after the battle. But we were still in the wilds while Loghain had called all the nobles together in a Landsmeet and was up in Denerim.

At the end of the game, we know that from Redcliff to Denerim is three days on a forced march. Add in the time it takes to send out word for nobles to gather in a Landsmeet and actually meeting, getting named Regent and setting a bounty on Grey Wardens, our Warden was probably recovering in the Wilds for a week or two before heading out.

[Zu Long]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's only true if you accept that the Wardens would know, which Duncan gave no reason to believe they would. Alistair says that everyone assumed Duncan was guessing, and unless you know the nature of the Joining (and unless I'm missing something Loghain didn't) that's more plausible than the alternative.

Furthermore, your assertion that Loghain should have known a Warden is necessary is fallacious for the same reason. Unless you know exactly why the Archdemon stays dead when a Warden kills it (which is kept even from some of the Wardens), you can be forgiven for thinking that necessary is an exaggeration.

People assumed Duncan was guessing that it was a real blight, but that doesn't change the fact that he was telling people it was the real deal. As I said earlier, with Ferelden on the line, I forgive NOTHING. Four blights. FOUR. Showing exactly what happens to a country when a Blight takes hold. Loghain new darn well what the consequences of being wrong would be. Against a threat like that, you don't take chances. I say again- He had four precedents, he had an expert in front of him telling him what was happening, he knew the same legends everyone else knew. He chose wrong.

Part of the reason Loghain and Cailan didn't think it was a Blight is because they knew those legends, and said legends did not line up with what Loghain and Cailan were facing. They were winning for most of their time at Ostagar. Blights are supposed to take the combined might of several countries. So far, a single small country was holding its own reasonably well.

But since you do have some point about Loghain and Cailan not being pessimistic enough, I'll concede that. You have yet to answer, however, why Loghain should have known the Wardens were necessary. Or rather, you have yet to answer why it's Loghain's fault he didn't, since everyone arguing against you is already handling why Loghain should know they're necessary.

I'm certain I've said this, but I don't mind repeating it. Loghain could and should have realized that the Wardens were necessary because 1) All the legends state you need a Warden to kill the Archdemon. Cailan references this during the conference, and it gets said again during the landsmeet. 2) All four other Blights were stopped only when a Warden killed the Archdemon. A military strategist knows once is happenstance, twice is coincedence, three times is enemy action. This was FOUR. 3) Duncan made it clear he thought this was a Blight, and that the Archdemon might take the field.

All the arguments you're referencing boil down to- It wasn't Loghain's fault, he didn't trust the Wardens because X, or alternatively, It wasn't Loghain's fault, the Wardens didn't reveal their secrets to him.

Neither. Is. Relevant. The question is was Loghain's decision to quit the field and let all the Wardens in Ferelden die a tactically sound one? The answer is NO. Against the magnatude of the threat he was facing, the CHANCE that the Wardens were telling the truth was enough for someone who took the security of his people seriously.. Loghain weighed the threat of Orlais more heavily than the threat posed by the Darkspawn. This was an INCREDIBLE tactical blunder. Understandable? Forgivable? Those are opinions. What I've listed, and what Loghain knew isn't really up for debate- it's in the game, for crying out loud. He completely messed up the call based on what he knew. He let his personal feelings get in the way.

You can't make that concession and still stand by the argument that. Loghain should have known they were necessary. Even the Wardens admit that if it weren't for the Archdemon's immortality thing, normal
soldiers would be enough to do the job. In the context of Loghain not knowing that, and having a lot of ordinary soldiers, there was no way for him to see the problem.

Except people KNOW the legends say only a Warden can kill one, (again, they bring it up at least twice in dialogue in the game, and it's implied to be general knowledge) and stopping Blights is the ONLY REASON the Wardens exist. It's the whole point behind their political power is these legends that say they can stop a blight. That's why they get to be exceptions to the rules and do pretty much whatever they please is that they ARE the last line of defense. Loghain knew that.

Modifié par Zu Long, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:57 .

[TEWR]

Death of the Author and all that, right? However, I've always thought DotA was kind of baloney, so if you can find me a quote where he says Loghain can see the army, I'll accept it. Hint: He doesn't say it in there. Actually what's really interesting is that Return to Ostagar contradicts some of what Gaidar says in there, especially about Cailan. It's intriguing to see how an author's vision can change over time.

Well, I think it might've been Mary Kirby actually. Knight of Phoenix made a blog post talking about the battle long ago, mentioning both Mary Kirby and David Gaider, and other posters have seen the post in question.

I haven't, but then again it might've been a part of the old forums -- something I was not a part of. Or it's just buried in the DAO forums, which spans hundreds of pages. So take my word for it, though have a grain of salt to go with it as well.

Which makes it interesting that in Return to Ostagar we're told point blank that he thought it was a lost cause, doesn't it?

I'm not following. You were saying Cailan was wise to not bring in extra troops like Redcliffe, but that flies counter to how he wasn't wise to go out and meet the enemy in battle, against the advice of his general even.

and if you actually read everything I wrote, you'll realize I think Cailan's political Machinations and wrangling helped cause Ostagar.

I didn't actually, so apologies. But I can't call what Cailan did a wise decision regarding Redcliffe's troops. It just wasn't.

This topic is whether LOGHAIN was tactically wise for what he did. (He wasn't) If you want to start a topic listing how Cailan or Duncan screwed up, I'll oblige you in there.

But their actions contribute to how Loghain was wise to retreat.

I'm just curious how telling Loghain, who we've established hates Grey Wardens, that the Wardens are part Darkspawn would have made him trust them more.

I originally thought the same thing years ago, that telling him wouldn't be wise (not because he hates them, but for other reasons). I changed my stance on that for one reason I'll mention after this: He doesn't hate them. Distrusts them, sure. Views them with slight suspicion that grows over the course of time, sure. Dismisses their necessity, sure (but then so does half of Ferelden).

But he never hates them. He admits that they're impressive, offers encouraging words to the different origins for being a Warden, cites the best warrior he's ever seen as being a female Warden, and respects the Warden if spared.

Now for the reason I changed my stance years ago: it couldn't hurt their chances.. It would pave the way to better diplomatic relations with him. Transparency is better then secrecy.

he simple fact is he had the people that Ferelden keeps around specifically for a Blight, telling him there was a Blight, and saying they should be prepared for an Archdemon. I don't know how you claim someone made a wise move when he ignores his own experts.

Because being an expert can amount to anything. Just because a Warden has always slain an Archdemon is not indicative that they're necessary to the uninformed. It could suggest that they're the only ones who can even GET to the Archdemon and fight it well enough to kill it.

For all people might've known, the Wardens were only experts because all they did was just devote themselves to fighting Darkspawn all the time but were otherwise normal people.

Half of the country came to believe that the Darkspawn were not Blight-worthy, mainly because they appeared dis-unified, something the Archdemon took advantage of by sending out roving bands of Darkspawn throughout the country to sew chaos and weaken the nation, while taking advantage of the civil war.

But ultimately, Loghain was the one who got 99% of the people who could stop the blight killed when he left a battle he couldn't see, refused aid from people he didn't like, and ignored all the advice he was getting about how it was a blight, and he needed the Wardens to stop it. Wise? Heck no.

Considering Duncan was the commander of his men and knew full well that a battle could go awry yet didn't have any of his men standing by to retreat should **** hit the fan, I can't really blame Loghain for their deaths.

Especially when nothing Loghain did at Ostagar really has him bear blame for their deaths.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Zu Long wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Part of the reason Loghain and Cailan didn't think it was a Blight is because they knew those legends, and said legends did not line up with what Loghain and Cailan were facing. They were winning for most of their time at Ostagar. Blights are supposed to take the combined might of several countries. So far, a single small country was holding its own reasonably well.

But since you do have some point about Loghain and Cailan not being pessimistic enough, I'll concede that. You have yet to answer, however, why Loghain should have known the Wardens were necessary. Or rather, you have yet to answer why it's Loghain's fault he didn't, since everyone arguing against you is already handling why Loghain should know they're necessary.

I'm certain I've said this, but I don't mind repeating it. Loghain could and should have realized that the Wardens were necessary because 1) All the legends state you need a Warden to kill the Archdemon. Cailan references this during the conference, and it gets said again during the landsmeet. 2) All four other Blights were stopped only when a Warden killed the Archdemon. A military strategist knows once is happenstance, twice is coincedence, three times is enemy action. This was FOUR. 3) Duncan made it clear he thought this was a Blight, and that the Archdemon might take the field.

All the arguments you're referencing boil down to- It wasn't Loghain's fault, he didn't trust the Wardens because X, or alternatively, It wasn't Loghain's fault, the Wardens didn't reveal their secrets to him.

Neither. Is. Relevant. The question is was Loghain's decision to quit the field and let all the Wardens in Ferelden die a tactically sound one? The answer is NO. Against the magnatude of the threat he was facing, the CHANCE that the Wardens were telling the truth was enough for someone who took the security of his people seriously.. Loghain weighed the threat of Orlais more heavily than the threat posed by the Darkspawn. This was an INCREDIBLE tactical blunder. Understandable? Forgivable? Those are opinions. What I've listed, and what Loghain knew isn't really up for debate- it's in the game, for crying out loud. He completely messed up the call based on what he knew. He let his personal feelings get in the way.

What you're saying, then, is that Loghain should have let the soldiers under his command die to save a handful of men (who were apparently already dead, from the cutscene) due to old legends. I won't deny they show a trend, but they're still legends. He has no way of knowing whether or not it's actually true that it was literally always a Warden who did the job, and even if he assumed that to be true he still has no idea why. And in the absence of knowing why, the legends that say that it's necessary for a Warden to strike the final blow come off as a combination of really tenous inductive logic by the surviving non-Wardens (remember that coorelation does not in and of itself imply causation), and shameless puffery by the surviving Wardens. (And again, this is under the assumption that there's any truth to them.)

Zu Long wrote...

Except people KNOW the legends say only a Warden can kill one, (again, they bring it up at least twice in dialogue in the game, and it's implied to be general knowledge) and stopping Blights is the ONLY REASON the Wardens exist. It's the whole point behind their political power is these legends that say they can stop a blight. That's why they get to be exceptions to the rules and do pretty much whatever they please is that they ARE the last line of defense. Loghain knew that.

Yes, but none of that implies anything other than specialist skill and tradition to anyone who doesn't already know better. Tradititon doesn't mean much during total warfare of the sort the darkspawn wage and force others to wage, and specialist skill doesn't mean much when there's only a dozen specialists and you're choosing between that and half an army.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 08 janvier 2014 - 08:16 .

[Zu Long]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, I think it might've been Mary Kirby actually. Knight of Phoenix made a blog post talking about the battle long ago, mentioning both Mary Kirby and David Gaider, and other posters have seen the post in question.

I haven't, but then again it might've been a part of the old forums -- something I was not a part of. Or it's just buried in the DAO forums, which spans hundreds of pages. So take my word for it, though have a grain of salt to go with it as well.

Sorry. Without some kind of actual proof, the text stands as is. And in the text, Loghain can't see didly save the tower. See the video earlier in the topic where we get his point of view twice with no view of the battle. The whole point of the tower signal is to let Loghain's army, which can't see the battle, know when to strike.

I'm not following. You were saying Cailan was wise to not bring in extra troops like Redcliffe, but that flies counter to how he wasn't wise to go out and meet the enemy in battle, against the advice of his general even.

See my theory earlier on how political wrangling between Cailan and Loghain caused Ostagar to happen despite the fact that neither really wanted to fight there. Some of it is conjecture, but it's the only way I can make sense of everything we were told.

I didn't actually, so apologies. But I can't call what Cailan did a wise decision regarding Redcliffe's troops. It just wasn't.

I'll summarize- I think Cailan wanted Redcliffe out of it because he was certain he'd lose, and even WANTED a loss to force Ferelden's lords to accept his alliance to Orlais in the face of the crisis. Again, just read through my posts real quick.

But their actions contribute to how Loghain was wise to retreat.

I disagree. Cailan's actions don't change that Loghain turned down help from Orlais against the blight, Duncan's actions don't change that Loghain was given the information he needed to make the right call. And neither changes the fact that when he made the call he couldn't see the battle.

I originally thought the same thing years ago, that telling him wouldn't be wise (not because he hates them, but for other reasons). I changed my stance on that for one reason I'll mention after this: He doesn't hate them. Distrusts them, sure. Views them with slight suspicion that grows over the course of time, sure. Dismisses their necessity, sure (but then so does half of Ferelden).

But he never hates them. He admits that they're impressive, offers encouraging words to the different origins for being a Warden, cites the best warrior he's ever seen as being a female Warden, and respects the Warden if spared.

Now for the reason I changed my stance years ago: it couldn't hurt their chances.. It would pave the way to better diplomatic relations with him. Transparency is better then secrecy.

Uh, telling someone who already dislikes you that you are part monster can definitely hurt your chances. I am unconvinced.

Because being an expert can amount to anything. Just because a Warden has always slain an Archdemon is not indicative that they're necessary to the uninformed. It could suggest that they're the only ones who can even GET to the Archdemon and fight it well enough to kill it.

For all people might've known, the Wardens were only experts because all they did was just devote themselves to fighting Darkspawn all the time but were otherwise normal people.

Half of the country came to believe that the Darkspawn were not Blight-worthy, mainly because they appeared dis-unified, something the Archdemon took advantage of by sending out roving bands of Darkspawn throughout the country to sew chaos and weaken the nation, while taking advantage of the civil war.

The whole point of having experts around is to take their judgement on the thing they are experts on. You can have reasons for disregarding them, but is it wise? And more particularly, was it wise here? Would a reasonable person who knew the costs associated with defeat AFFORD to ignore the warnings he was given, however cloaked in mysticism or legend they were? They can't, not with those stakes. He HAD the knowledge he needed to make the right call. But he didn't.

Considering Duncan was the commander of his men and knew full well that a battle could go awry yet didn't have any of his men standing by to retreat should **** hit the fan, I can't really blame Loghain for their deaths.

Since it was his plan and he left them to die, I find it perfectly reasonable to hold him responsible. Duncan clearly never suspected the Wardens would be left to die by Loghain- or that if they DID all die, that whoever was left would refuse aid from the Orlesian Wardens, as Loghain did.

As I said in an earlier post, I think Duncan was counting on the combined Ferelden army causing the Darkspawn enought problems that the Archdemon would be forced to take the field. He needed every Warden down there because it's battle and who knows what will happen? And he did have two Wardens in a place he suspected they would be clear of the battle if things went badly...Too bad someone charged them with treason and tried to assassinate them, huh?

Gonna call it a night here. Not sure if I'll post again, but it's been fun arguing with you guys. I haven't de-lurked for a good debate brawl in months.

Modifié par Zu Long, 08 janvier 2014 - 08:22 .

[Commander Kurt]

It all hinges on two points;

1. If Loghain knew enough about the battle to sound a tactical retreat, what was the beacon for? Him needing it to know the status on the field is not a guess or conjuncture. It's what the game tells us. The writing of the battle of Ostagar is a bit of a mess, I'll give you that much, but this is such a major part of it. Now, it could be to keep Alistair out of the battle, but in the warcouncil scene Loghain himself suggests his own men and says "It's not a dangerous task, but it is vital."

Why is it vital?

2. If the necessity of the wardens was unclear, why did everyone else in the whole of Thedas trust their word? They have rather unique authorities for a group of specialized fighters that aren't really needed, in fact their authority formally surpasses that of the Chantry and kingdoms of Thedas. The evidence for "Wardens are needed during a blight and people in power knows it" is much, much stronger in this setting than any evidence to the contrary.

I mean, sure, you can disregard this. If you prefer to think that Loghain didn't need the beacon to know what was going on then just play it that way. If you want Thedas to be a place where wardens aren't considered special to the extreme by every entity in power aside from Loghain then whatever works for you is fine. I just thought I'd give Zu Long some support before he thinks he's going crazy. Head canon aside, it is quite clearly stated in the game that the beacon was crucial, and that wardens are universally accepted as also crucial.

[Augustei]

This thread is just to stressful to continue to post in, things are going in circles where people seem to feel the need to question points already answered and then they are answered again only to be again questioned.
Then we have Loghain haters like Zu Long who ignore both valid statements & points, and ignore logic. Anyway, I'm outa' here