232 réponses à ce sujet

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...


Mass Effect Trilogy is also a kind of game where you are constantly pushed forwards. This doesn't stop the game from being an AAA RPG. Many people like the trilogy as it is. And I'm sure BioWare consider Mass Effect as their flagship title.

Let's not forget what evolution the title had from game to game. Removal of Mako, simplification the character development and inventory systems, reduction of quantity of interactive dialogues, improvement of dialogues, cut-scenes, and overall visual quality. And most players, as well as BioWare themselves - are very happy with that.

Bioware..... I'm sure.... till the feedback poured in. To be fair alot of the issues with ME3 weren't game breaking. Just disappointing that their vision from game 1 seems to have caved in on itself in game 3. ME1 was an exercise in pushing the boudaries. ME2 redefined those boundaries whle refining the gameplay.

ME3 just aped what those past two games did on a superficial level while leaning heavily on the player's connection to the characters. Some of whom were woefully under-provided for. Then if that wasn't bad enough. ME3 promised the experience of the past titles by offering us the RPG mode. Only to discover that the RPG mode was severely comprimised. It didn't offer the gameplay experience of the past titles.

For those who like Action. Great. There's action mode. For those who want the story. The Story mode. For those who want all that and more........ RPG mode offer's a Mass Effect Lite experience. And I suspect it's the RPG fans who feel most let down.

All those little problems and niggles however came to the fore when ME3's end game turned out to be a damp squib instead of a party piece. Disappointing and memorable for all the wrong reasons.

Thank goodness Citadel DLC came out.  Though for BW's future reference. The final scene of Citadel DLC is just one of a varied number of different endings I'd have liked for the end of game ending of ME3

[Seival]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I will admit that I haven't played B:TS, so this question is genuine. Does the dialogue system allow you to choose what "type" of Jodie you're playing? By that I mean, does is it possible to have her act differently and have people react differently to her throughout multiple playthroughs?

Of course. Choosing a line of behavior via dialogue options is a part of Beyond gameplay. Moreover, dialogue system in Beyond has an additional gameplay within it. Dialogue options are fading in matter of seconds. Hesitated, and did not know what to choose? Wasted the time limit for saying something? It's done - you character remains silent, and shows corresponding behavior for this case (looks away, for example). Sometimes dialogue options are blinking and flouncing in accordance to your character's condition - when Jodie is tired or angry for example, and it quite hard to say something right in such a condition... It would be great, if NME will use such things for its own dialogues.

Modifié par Seival, 08 janvier 2014 - 06:31 .

[spirosz]

I don't believe it would, since they two different types of gameplay types that are both used for different games. I prefer the more traditional written words, like KOTOR over voice acting, since I'm able to hear my own voice when choosing the dialogue and I know word for word, what is being said - compared to picking (and in ME3's case, only two) a few options that I had no real context on what was going to be said. Usually it was more or less fine, but there were times when I picked a certain dialogue - especially on either Paragon or Renegade where I had to reload and pick neutral (oh wait) because of how... too extreme it felt for either side.

I like the dialogue gameplay in Beyond, but I wouldn't want that in roleplaying games that I personally enjoy.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Seival seems the type of person who would claim a persons negative critiques and reviews are invalid because they haven't played the game, while watching that persons let's play video where they show moment by moment why they don't like the game.

[Cainhurst Crow]

No matter what you pick though, character reactions and the events play out almost exactly the same. And you'll be railroaded at a lot of critical events and forced to go through them, no matter how little sense they make.

Not to mention stupid as hell moments that happen without player input in beyond two souls. For example, when the main character goes to a party with a bunch of kids who don't know who edgar allen poe is, and yet do know the main character is part of a secret government research project for the supernatural, yet don't seem to have any connection to the government in any real way to know this stuff, and see that the main character has powers of some kind, and decide the best course of action is to suddenly turn on her for no reason, burn her with cigarettes, and lock her in a stairs cupboard for being a witch, and the entire point of this being....I have no idea.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:50 .

[Redbelle]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I will admit that I haven't played B:TS, so this question is genuine. Does the dialogue system allow you to choose what "type" of Jodie you're playing? By that I mean, does is it possible to have her act differently and have people react differently to her throughout multiple playthroughs?

Of course. Choosing a line of behavior via dialogue options is a part of Beyond gameplay. Moreover, dialogue system in Beyond has an additional gameplay within it. Dialogue options are fading in matter of seconds. Hesitated, and did not know what to choose? Wasted the time limit for saying something? It's done - you character remains silent, and shows corresponding behavior for this case (looks away, for example). Sometimes dialogue options are blinking and flouncing in accordance to your character's condition - when Jodie is tired or angry for example, and it quite hard to say something right in such a condition... It would be great, if NME will use such things for its own dialogues.

I think based on that, it's an RPG by basic definition. Though, I must admit, when I am playing an RPG, I look for more than that. It's a matter of taste, though. Some people don't like JRPGs, others don't like sandbox RPGs, and others won't like cinematic RPGs. I think you need to keep in mind that there is so much resistance your proposal because you are basically suggesting that Bioware should change many of the things that brought people into the Mass Effect series in the first place, which is an abundance of options, side quests, easter eggs and extra things in general. If the developers were to drop focus on putting as much as possible in the game while trying to provide a satisfying shooting experience, then the series itself would lose it's unique identity and it would become a Naughty Dog RPG, which you may like, but would alienate many of the fans who made this series successful in the first place.

QFT

BW have an identity that manifests in their games. It's been reinvented many times. But there are core values in all of their developments. Lose them, or gloss over them, and it's not a BW game. Especially not a BW game taht follows on from their previous productions.

[Chashan]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

No matter what you pick though, character reactions and the events play out almost exactly the same. And you'll be railroaded at a lot of critical events and forced to go through them, no matter how little sense they make.

Not to mention stupid as hell moments that happen without player input in beyond two souls. For example, when the main character goes to a party with a bunch of kids who don't know who edgar allen poe is, and yet do know the main character is part of a secret government research project for the supernatural, yet don't seem to have any connection to the government in any real way to know this stuff, and see that the main character has powers of some kind, and decide the best course of action is to suddenly turn on her for no reason, burn her with cigarettes, and lock her in a stairs cupboard for being a witch, and the entire point of this being....I have no idea.

Sounds a lot like some '70s horror-flick the name of which I can't recall...got a (badly-done) remake/sequel some time in the '90s.

Redbelle wrote...


BW have an identity that manifests in their games. It's been
reinvented many times. But there are core values in all of their
developments. Lose them, or gloss over them, and it's not a BW game.
Especially not a BW game taht follows on from their previous
productions.

Looking at most of BW's titles, this largely holds true, yep. Plot-wise, moral system-wise (be it Paragon-Renegade/Closed Fist-Open Palm/Dark Side-Light Side) etc.
Can't hurt if BW went back to those roots, really.

Modifié par Chashan, 08 janvier 2014 - 09:29 .

[General TSAR]

Seival wrote...
Where did I say about 5-hours-long game? Beyond, which has small amount of gameplay compared to some other games, requires 12 hours for just one playthrough. ME3 without side quests requires 15 hours.

In case you haven't noticed, Beyond Two Souls has ZERO replay value, even the hack fraud said so. 

David Cage: Play ‘Beyond: Two Souls Once – and Never Again
http://gamerant.com/...endings-replay/

Modifié par General TSAR, 08 janvier 2014 - 10:25 .

[spirosz]

General TSAR wrote...

Seival wrote...
Where did I say about 5-hours-long game? Beyond, which has small amount of gameplay compared to some other games, requires 12 hours for just one playthrough. ME3 without side quests requires 15 hours.

In case you haven't noticed, Beyond Two Souls has ZERO replay value, even the hack fraud said so. 

David Cage: Play ‘Beyond: Two Souls Once – and Never Again
http://gamerant.com/...endings-replay/

That isn't true.  I find that there is definite replayability.  

[spirosz]

He's stating it in a way that it won't be the "same" experience if you replay it again and he's right - I've never had the same experience as playing the game the first time, but that doesn't mean other playthroughs are worse, I've found replaying certain games even add more to the experience - but that is me personally.

[Orian Tabris]

AresKeith wrote...

The second list is what adds to the RPG experience

Correct, it adds to the experience of an RPG. It does not, however, define a game as being an RPG.

[spirosz]

Orian Tabris wrote...
It does not, however, define a game as being an RPG.

Apparently it does. 

[Seival]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Seival wrote...

I believe my exact words were: 

"You can control and speak for your character for 5 hours with great level of execution of cutscenes and dialogues, or you can control and speak for your character for 20 hours with poor execution level of cutscenes and dialogues. Personally, I prefer 5 hours with great level of execution. And this will still be an RPG."

Where did I say about 5-hours-long game? Beyond, which has small amount of gameplay compared to some other games, requires 12 hours for just one playthrough. ME3 without side quests requires 15 hours.

I amazed how some people corrupt my words and then start to discuss corrupted variant as if it was real. And what should be my attitude towards such things? Positive?

5 hours of gameplay, then. It's the same thing. Five horus of gameplay is barely long enough to start to understand the mechanics, much less master them. And of course, it's a tremendous hinderance on Bioware's ace in the hole--their world development. Five hours isn't long enough to get a grip on a game world. Five hours is barely long enough for a game like Mirror's Edge or Star Wars The Force Unleashed II, games that usher you from setbox to setbox with no player control.

Doesn't work.

If you are going to play EvE Online, then 5 hours will definitely not be enough even to finish the tutorial And this is the problem, because this RPG game looks like a feature creep heaven. Some people like it, but everyone knows that EvE Online is a game about gameplay, there is no room for storytelling there. I like only heavily story-driven RPGs, and I believe BioWare likes to produce exactly this kind of RPG games.

Five hours of actual gameplay is long enough for magnificent level of immersion and quality of roleplaying. I value Beyond more than the entire Mass Effect Trology just because of that. Mass Effect is long, but Beyond is almost real. I made just two playthroughs of Beyond, and experienced during these 24 hours more than during 10 playthroughs of Mass Effect Trilogy. I like sci-fi stories. And I like it when I want to believe in what I see on the screen. I like perfect illusions. And I like to play a role in such perfect illusions.

[Seival]

Orian Tabris wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The second list is what adds to the RPG experience

Correct, it adds to the experience of an RPG. It does not, however, define a game as being an RPG.

Yes, the second list only pleases some subjective preferences. It doesn't define the RPG genre.

[Cyonan]

Seival wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The second list is what adds to the RPG experience

Correct, it adds to the experience of an RPG. It does not, however, define a game as being an RPG.

Yes, the second list only pleases some subjective preferences. It doesn't define the RPG genre.

To be honest, I don't find your first list to be that great for defining it either.

Role playing is just the act of playing a role in a story, making choices as though you were that character.

Just because something lets me customize doesn't mean it's automatically role playing, though. It has to define who my character is, and that needs to be reflected in the story at some point.

For example, in Crysis 3 I can choose my own suit abilities and gun attachments to suit my play style. I can go in guns blazing with maximum armour, or take the sneaky stealth approach. However, regardless of how I play the game the main chracter Prophet will always say the same lines in the cutscenes, have the same character arc, and arrive at the same destination. How I play the game has zero effect on who Prophet is as a character, and no I'm not role playing.

There's also going to be limited vs unlimited role playing rather than a simple boolean "This is/isn't a RPG". Mass Effect is limited in that I'm allowed to choose what kind of a person Shep is, but ultimately I have to be the big hero who saves the galaxy.

Partial Unlimited is what something like Skyrim has. There's going to be limits to what I can do because of the nature of technology, but I'm not forced down one specific storyline. I can run off and go be a merchant while ignoring the big angry dragon that wants to kill all mortals.

True unlimited is what something like D&D would offer where I made a Rogue who has stolen an entire building, a series of traps that tried to kill him, and even the bronze off of the wall. Even in Skyrim I couldn't do something like that.

[Ravensword]

You know, Seival, I can see you don't like the kind of games that people would generally consider RPGs.

Modifié par Ravensword, 10 janvier 2014 - 04:36 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

"Governments don't exist because we cannot sense them."
This thread is as smart as the above line.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

ITT: An RPG is mo-cap animations and high res textures. Why BTS is a transcendent RPG experience that all developers should look to emulate.

[CynicalShep]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

"Governments don't exist because we cannot sense them."
This thread is as smart as the above line.

heh

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

CynicalShep wrote...

Kaiser Arian wrote...

"Governments don't exist because we cannot sense them."
This thread is as smart as the above line.

heh