46 réponses à ce sujet

[Deebo305]

@Xiphos System

While it may be hard to grasp, you have to remember there are guy in the game who are actively trying to gain gunpowder or a good substitute for it.

Having the world evolve is not a bad thing if you consider how it would work. Take the Arquebus, if you played AC or seen any pre WW2 movies then you seen this gun which has been around since the 15th century

Guys were still suited up with armor and swords but this gun effectively replaced the bow and arrow in most battlefields. However it a game like DA, it would come off as a very powerful but slow weapon which wouldn't still well with the dps crowd but this is just one way it could work if anyone in thedas were to use it for something other than bombs and cannon fire.

[The Baconer]

General TSAR wrote...
Fable introduced flintlocks and that went so swimingly with the lore. 

The introduction of firearms had nothing to do with the games being dog****.

[Malanek]

In real history it took about 800 years from the first use of gun powder to make its way into useful firearms. Mechanically whether you want to add firearms isn't a big issue to me. What is the real game play difference between a staff that shoots lightning to a crossbow to a musket?

Whether you want to see the world in this more evolved state from a story point of view is up for debate and would come down to personal preference but I don't see it as a huge deal either way. It clearly doesn't break lore because it has already been established.

Modifié par Malanek999, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:43 .

[O_OotherSide]

Its a bit silly to think the qunari have many spies in dwarf land.

[Armorat]

Deebo305 wrote...

@Xiphos System

While it may be hard to grasp, you have to remember there are guy in the game who are actively trying to gain gunpowder or a good substitute for it.

Having the world evolve is not a bad thing if you consider how it would work. Take the Arquebus, if you played AC or seen any pre WW2 movies then you seen this gun which has been around since the 15th century

Guys were still suited up with armor and swords but this gun effectively replaced the bow and arrow in most battlefields. However it a game like DA, it would come off as a very powerful but slow weapon which wouldn't still well with the dps crowd but this is just one way it could work if anyone in thedas were to use it for something other than bombs and cannon fire.

"hard to grasp"? Thanks, Captain Patronization 

Did you miss the bits where I was saying firearms were inevitable and specifically said that there was a long bit of blackpowder weapon history that the writers could use? Or the part where I said people (Anders, assumably others) already have the formula for the mixture? We're on the same side, and Deflagratio was chewing me out earlier for saying exactly the things you claim I don't understand.  

I think I'm bad at internet communication.

[Deflagratio]

Malanek999 wrote...

In real history it took about 800 years from the first use of gun powder to make its way into useful firearms. Mechanically whether you want to add firearms isn't a big issue to me. What is the real game play difference between a staff that shoots lightning to a crossbow to a musket?

Handheld gunpowder firearms made the armor practices of that era completely obsolete. It would take around five hundred years before the application of body armor would be made practical again. (Modern counter ballistic materials like Kevlar)

That creates a huge difference in the very nature of conflict. The idea of a professional and distinguished warrior class died with the advent of guns, because the projection of power became a cheap resources as opposed to a lifelong commitment. Part of the nostalgic romanticism and mystique of the "Dark Ages" is tied to the identity of the distinguished, learned warrior culture. The "Fantasy" setting then provides an opportunity to revel in the escapism of what was truly a wretched time in human history.

I hope that highlights the fact that there is indeed a quantifiable difference between a firearm and a crossbow. Magic is addressed in the exclusivity of how it's treated in Dragon Age lore, and somewhat feeds on the same sense of elitism that permeates the warrior class as well. 

Modifié par Deflagratio, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:02 .

[Armorat]

Deflagratio wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

In real history it took about 800 years from the first use of gun powder to make its way into useful firearms. Mechanically whether you want to add firearms isn't a big issue to me. What is the real game play difference between a staff that shoots lightning to a crossbow to a musket?

Handheld gunpowder firearms made the armor practices of that era completely obsolete. It would take around five hundred years before the application of body armor would be made practical again. (Modern counter ballistic materials like Kevlar)

That creates a huge difference in the very nature of conflict. The idea of a professional and distinguished warrior class died with the advent of guns, because the projection of power became a cheap resources as opposed to a lifelong commitment. Part of the nostalgic romanticism and mystique of the "Dark Ages" is tied to the identity of the distinguished, learned warrior culture. The "Fantasy" setting then provides an opportunity to revel in the escapism of what was truly a wretched time in human history.

I hope that highlights the fact that there is indeed a quantifiable difference between a firearm and a crossbow. Magic is addressed in the exclusivity of how it's treated in Dragon Age lore, and somewhat feeds on the same sense of elitism that permeates the warrior class as well. 

Very well said...I hadn't really thought about the thematic ramifications. 

I still hold that it's inevitable in terms of lore, though. I think you're spot on that the DA gameplay, stories and characters we have now wouldn't be suited to the addition of widespread firearms access. However, that doesn't mean that Bioware couldn't tackle later periods with a different type of game, or even just in books or comics. After all, that very same nostalgia and romanticism that we have for the period could be shared by future Thedosians, looking back wistfully at the days when peerless Grey Wardens went toe-to-toe with darkspawn hordes and beat them back with steel alone. We'd connect with the characters in a totally different way.

Modifié par Xiphos Systems, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:27 .

[DRTJR]

The day Tevinter washes over Qunandar and mounts the heads of the Ariqun, Arishock, and Arigena from the walls of Minrathous. Then and only then will gunpowder be a thing.

[Zkyire]

Magdalena11 wrote...

DA already has gunpowder if Anders could discover the formula. Even after gunpowder became fairly commonplace in the 1500s, its use was more for intimidation than anything else. It was unreliable and dangerous. Who wants a weapon that has a 1/3 chance of working, 1/3 chance of complete failure and 1/3 chance of going off in the user's face?

Leave it for the Qunari and Dworkin and his surviving apprentices, I say.

..for the same reason why real-life armies used it.

Because it worked.

[andy6915]

Malanek999 wrote...

In real history it took about 800 years from the first use of gun powder to make its way into useful firearms.

Yeah, that. You guys are making huge leaps in this thread. People in here are going on about "you want to turn DA into sci-fi?" or "you want Dragon Age to become a Battlefield first person shooter?" or "Fable started using guns and look how that turned out." ALL of which are stupid statements or questions. Gunpowder=/=guns. It took an extremely long time for us to use them for anything but fireworks bombs and cannons. If you guys were right in that gunpowder automatically meant guns, then the Qunari would have already beat the entire world using assault rifles and grenade launchers by now by now, with all the time they would have had to develop gun technology since they discovered it centuries ago in DA. Yet... I don't see the Qunari walking around with modern day guys shooting Magisters in the face with rocket launchers.

Modifié par andy69156915, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:03 .

[superdeathdealer14]

I'm wondering about this myself eventually Thedas will have firearms (unless they end up like TES and become technologically stagnant) but it won't happen in the Dragon Age give em' about a few centuries or so and someone might come up with an Arquebus till then you can safely say that Qunari are the only ones with gunpowder. Or someone steals the recipe off them eventually, probably not but there is always the theory, let's face it they probably can't steal it off them so someone smart be they human, dwarf or elf needs to figure it out and if they can't well by the time the Qunari start another (or be forced to start) another war then Thedas don't stand a chance.

[CybAnt1]

I don't think Anders was using gunpowder. Gunpowder blasts debris outward, it doesn't send building sections levitating into the sky filled with crimson energy.

I don't want guns in the DA setting. WoW has settled on its own weird game world mix of technology and magic, so yes it has airplanes, guns, mechas, and dynamite.

Guns won't fit this setting. Let the Qunari keep their dreadnought cannons, which we've never seen, and maybe never will.

It is possible those interested in Qunari blackpowder will still be driving parts of the plot, as they did in DA2.

[TheButterflyEffect]

How does a qunari hide among dwarves...?!

[Veruin]

By wearing a moustache, beard, and using the word "sodding".

[Toasted Llama]

Veruin wrote...

By wearing a moustache, beard, and using the word "sodding".

Don't forget large amounts of alcohol consumption!

[Augustei]

When Thedas isn't so stupid to be so dependent on magic and realize how it stagnates their technological development

[The Baconer]

XxDeonxX wrote...
When Thedas isn't so stupid to be so dependent on magic and realize how it stagnates their technological development

Magic doesn't stagnate tehcnological advancement, complacency does.

[Br3admax]

Magic isn't even used by everyone in the general public. Most of it is locked in Towers, and magical advancement is actually halted. As to the second, magic doesn't necessarily halt advancement in every setting. The Dwemer are a prime example of this. Or plenty of FF titles. Can't assume that magic=no tech in every IP.

[bEVEsthda]

Deflagratio wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

In real history it took about 800 years from the first use of gun powder to make its way into useful firearms. Mechanically whether you want to add firearms isn't a big issue to me. What is the real game play difference between a staff that shoots lightning to a crossbow to a musket?

Handheld gunpowder firearms made the armor practices of that era completely obsolete. It would take around five hundred years before the application of body armor would be made practical again. (Modern counter ballistic materials like Kevlar)

That creates a huge difference in the very nature of conflict. The idea of a professional and distinguished warrior class died with the advent of guns, because the projection of power became a cheap resources as opposed to a lifelong commitment. Part of the nostalgic romanticism and mystique of the "Dark Ages" is tied to the identity of the distinguished, learned warrior culture. The "Fantasy" setting then provides an opportunity to revel in the escapism of what was truly a wretched time in human history.

I hope that highlights the fact that there is indeed a quantifiable difference between a firearm and a crossbow. Magic is addressed in the exclusivity of how it's treated in Dragon Age lore, and somewhat feeds on the same sense of elitism that permeates the warrior class as well. 

That firearms meant the end of personal armor is mostly a myth. They progressively disappeared over a long time, coexisting with firearms, during a period when armies became much bigger. Economy and social change are important factors. Weapons and armor continued their linked evolution. Breast plates from this period has a peculiar downturned collar. The purpose of this is to stop lead splatter, from impacting musquet balls (which the plate certainly stopped), from hitting and injuring the face.

Firearms do present a bigger challenge than just inventing gunpowder. There's the enormous amounts of very expensive metal, that is required for making cannons and mortars. For a medieval society like Thedas that is an incredible task. And then there's the trick of making it well enough so the cannon doesn't explode like a giant bomb.

The reason personal armor is making a comeback in western armies, is not kevlar, but the fact that the soldier has become very expensive and nonexpendable again. Just like the knights and mercenairies of old time.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 08 janvier 2014 - 06:07 .

[andy6915]

bEVEsthda wrote...
Breast plates from this period has a peculiar downturned collar. The purpose of this is to stop lead splatter, from impacting musquet balls (which the plate certainly stopped), from hitting and injuring the face

Wait, doesn't the DA2 champion armor (mage and warrior version) have that? What is that doing on that armor in a world without guns?

[Malanek]

Deflagratio wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

In real history it took about 800 years from the first use of gun powder to make its way into useful firearms. Mechanically whether you want to add firearms isn't a big issue to me. What is the real game play difference between a staff that shoots lightning to a crossbow to a musket?

Handheld gunpowder firearms made the armor practices of that era completely obsolete. It would take around five hundred years before the application of body armor would be made practical again. (Modern counter ballistic materials like Kevlar)

That creates a huge difference in the very nature of conflict. The idea of a professional and distinguished warrior class died with the advent of guns, because the projection of power became a cheap resources as opposed to a lifelong commitment. Part of the nostalgic romanticism and mystique of the "Dark Ages" is tied to the identity of the distinguished, learned warrior culture. The "Fantasy" setting then provides an opportunity to revel in the escapism of what was truly a wretched time in human history.

I hope that highlights the fact that there is indeed a quantifiable difference between a firearm and a crossbow. Magic is addressed in the exclusivity of how it's treated in Dragon Age lore, and somewhat feeds on the same sense of elitism that permeates the warrior class as well. 

Armour actually reliably stopped musket shots, but it did need to be heavier. It became much less common as armies became bigger and more exspensive while mobility became more important, so while firearms were a factor, its overall use was already declining.

You say it would be 500 years before body armour would practical again, but that is also down to cost and weight as much as anything. It could also be argued that they already have armour that is significantly superior to kevlar because of magic and and more exotic materials such as dragonskin, dragonbone and metals we dont have.

By your own argument armour wouldn't have a place because of magic. If we accept that early firearms that were introduced were rare and not particularly effective, which is what they were in reallity, then I don't really see a big change.

[Hammerstorm]

It should be interesting if the Inquisitors could find somebody that could create gunpowder and you could use it in a limited numbers of ways (as to blow up blockades, doors, ships etc.) or if a enemy had got their hands on some qunari gunpowder (or the qunari them self) and you have to find a way to stop them.