207 réponses à ce sujet

[AutumnWitch]

How do you deal with hard moral and ethical choices in the Dragon Age games that you as a person would never do in a similar situation?

I played the quest NIght Terrors in DA2 earlier today and I REALLY REALLY REALLY hate that if you make the "good" ethical choice (to save Feynriel's life) you basically get NOTHING except a silly book only worth 70sp. I find this so frustrating because I feel in this situation the want us to make the "bad" choice so we can get the reward (which is much much more substantial) for making the "bad" ethical choice and selling him out to the demon.

And to rub salt in the wound if you are playing as a mage (who is good) and you make the deal you are basically turning your back on all that you are fighting for just to get a good reward.

I don't know for sure but I would suspect that their answer to this issue is that if you are good you are doing the deed to save the boy and that is reward in itself. But I find this really unsatisfying because as far as I know, there are no places in the whole game where if you make the good moral choice you actually receive a better reward than that of people playing as bad.

I have played DA2 probably near 20 times by now and I ALWAYS save Feynriel because as a real person I just can't stomach doing something so repugnant just to get a good reward and sometimes even if I am playing a Hawke that isn't a goody-two-shoes. I just can't stomach it.

I know in DAI we are going to have to make some hard choices but I hope the writers/developers make an effort to be a little more fair because it should ok to be the "good guy". I don't know what happened in the West, esp since nine-eleven, but it just seems that trying to do the right thing in the world, even in video games, has become so "uncool". I truly hope that DAI will allow us people who still believe in wearing the "white hat" to have as much fun and be just as rewarded as those who would rather play darker or middle of the road characters. Trust me, I understand the world is grey and not black and white but there are good people who do he right things nearly all the time and if this really is a "role playing game" there should be room for those of us who still want to ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after even as cliché and perhaps boring as it might seem for some people.

[Rotward]

I just laugh at how forced these moral decisions are. Bioware tends to make such decisions more difficult artificially. See Orsino revealing he was a blood mage in the second-to-last fight, just to make siding with the mages less appealing.

That said, I try to pick the option that balances the good of the individual and the good of the whole evenly.

[The Baconer]

AutumnWitch wrote...
I don't know for sure but I would suspect that their answer to this issue is that if you are good you are doing the deed to save the boy and that is reward in itself. But I find this really unsatisfying because as far as I know, there are no places in the whole game where if you make the good moral choice you actually receive a better reward than that of people playing as bad.

Maybe that says something more about you than it does the game.

[KainD]

This game more often than not doesn't provide me with the choices that I would personally do as a person in the first place. Sucks.

[JCAP]

1º playthrough: the decision is based on what I think at the moment

2º playthrough: I try to be the best guy in the world

3º playthrough: STAB STAB KILL KILL!!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I never project myself into my characters, so I consider what the character I'm playing would do rather than myself. So if he/she does something absolutely despicable it's on them not me. :S

[Master Warder Z_]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I never project myself into my characters, so I consider what the character I'm playing would do rather than myself. So if he/she does something absolutely despicable it's on them not me. :S

Exactly!

Its why i can stomach working for Caesar's Legion in FO: NV

[Deflagratio]

Bioware morality asks the wrong questions, usually coming down to Altruism or Narcissism. The overwhelming majority of people have an innate sense of what is wrong, which is why "Pure Evil" is never something that turns out to be compelling, since it's always nonsensical to the non psychotic or sociopathic.

Instead, Bioware needs to ask why something is "right". I'll extrapolate an example from Dragon Age: Inquisition (The PAX Demo)

The choice of where to deploy the soldiers on the road is an interesting one, because it asks questions of duty and the inquisition's purpose (Which will probably be defined by the player in the end). The choice of Defending the Keep or Defending the village are both acceptable based on what you believe is the purpose of the Inquisition. On one end, you could argue that the keep is pointless if you're unwilling to protect the nearby holdings, and on another, risking the regional stability by losing the keep could have greater ramifications than one community of peasants.

The third option is more unclear, I imagine that allowing the soldiers to tend to their wounded, while successfully defending the keep will garner respect and admiration among your soldiers, showing that you care for their well-being, and are generally unwilling to expend them frivolously, but allowing the soldiers to tend to their wounded and failing to defend the keep would bring your capacity to lead effectively into question.

Master Warder Z wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I never project myself into my characters, so I consider what the character I'm playing would do rather than myself. So if he/she does something absolutely despicable it's on them not me. :S

Exactly!

Its why i can stomach working for Caesar's Legion in FO: NV

It's important to remember too that Caesar's Legion is New Vegas is no more self-serving than your other options. Caesar also has some believable rationale behind his despotism. The wasteland itself is a constant reminder of mankind's failure.

In that regard, I just have to reiterate that even if I do not project myself into my characters (Some I do, some I don't), I'll never find an "evil" character compelling, because it's entirely nonsensical.

Modifié par Deflagratio, 08 janvier 2014 - 03:39 .

[Steelcan]

Master Warder Z wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I never project myself into my characters, so I consider what the character I'm playing would do rather than myself. So if he/she does something absolutely despicable it's on them not me. :S

Exactly!

Its why i can stomach working for Caesar's Legion in FO: NV

Well that and the uniforms are just awesome

[GreyLycanTrope]

I decide on an outlook and personality for the character and then act accordingly.

[Magdalena11]

An interview said that the "good" choices in DAI may not lead to desired outcomes. This is a little scary, especially since the word good wasn't set in context of good vs. bad or good vs. profitable. It also opens up rp possibilities because unless metagaming is employed, there's no way to play just for the outcomes. That might be pretty cool. It might result in one of my windows getting broken too but I'll hopefully be able to fix it before winter sets in.

That does annoy me about NIght Terrors, though. Rare beyond price, not. It's worth 70 sp. I just keep telling myself that an act of kindness is its own reward. And that since I play on PC I can cheat and add money later if I need it.

[Ravensword]

Steelcan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I never project myself into my characters, so I consider what the character I'm playing would do rather than myself. So if he/she does something absolutely despicable it's on them not me. :S

Exactly!

Its why i can stomach working for Caesar's Legion in FO: NV

Well that and the uniforms are just awesome

The achievements.

[Master Warder Z_]

Deflagratio wrote...

Bioware morality asks the wrong questions, usually coming down to Altruism or Narcissism. The overwhelming majority of people have an innate sense of what is wrong, which is why "Pure Evil" is never something that turns out to be compelling, since it's always nonsensical to the non psychotic or sociopathic.

Instead, Bioware needs to ask why something is "right". I'll extrapolate an example from Dragon Age: Inquisition (The PAX Demo)

The choice of where to deploy the soldiers on the road is an interesting one, because it asks questions of duty and the inquisition's purpose (Which will probably be defined by the player in the end). The choice of Defending the Keep or Defending the village are both acceptable based on what you believe is the purpose of the Inquisition. On one end, you could argue that the keep is pointless if you're unwilling to protect the nearby holdings, and on another, risking the regional stability by losing the keep could have greater ramifications than one community of peasants.

The third option is more unclear, I imagine that allowing the soldiers to tend to their wounded, while successfully defending the keep will garner respect and admiration among your soldiers, showing that you care for their well-being, and are generally unwilling to expend them frivolously, but allowing the soldiers to tend to their wounded and failing to defend the keep would bring your capacity to lead effectively into question.

Master Warder Z wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I never project myself into my characters, so I consider what the character I'm playing would do rather than myself. So if he/she does something absolutely despicable it's on them not me. :S

Exactly!

Its why i can stomach working for Caesar's Legion in FO: NV

It's important to remember too that Caesar's Legion is New Vegas is no more self-serving than your other options. Caesar also has some believable rationale behind his despotism. The wasteland itself is a constant reminder of mankind's failure.

In that regard, I just have to reiterate that even if I do not project myself into my characters (Some I do, some I don't), I'll never find an "evil" character compelling, because it's entirely nonsensical.

Oh i didn't mean to say that i didn't find his agruments about rebuilding Humanity into Warriors and not becoming overly reliant upon techology and repeating the same mistakes of past correct. I found they had merit, even actual creedence and i saw how his society COULD actually have just as many Pro's and Cons as say the NCR, House or Lanius Forbidden *shudders* Independence.

I mean his whole Autocratic Ultitarian outlook has its moment to shine and its why i have throw in my guns with him on more then a few occasions.

Its just...I really like to think better then myself then thinking that i would gleefully burn villages down, apply crusifixition with any regulaity or what have you. Not to get into any details and therefore drag this topic even further away from its point but having fought in "war" and expreinced what humans can do when they are set upon destroying each other.

I really would like to think that perspective allowed me that much insight.

And it depends for me truely; I mean i have ran into a few "Lawful evil" characters that i couldn't help but finding myself in agreement with their Beliefs. Sun Li from Jade Empire comes to mind, Palpatine from Starwars, Etc. I do agree with you in part though, if their beliefs aren't backed by a princple i can actually fessibly stand behind either in character or in reality i tend to view them as just the rambling mooks that make up so many game antagonists.

Eitherway i don't judge ideologies or those who carry them harshly, even if they are worthy of scorn more often then not they tend to have their saving graces even if i tend to disagree with a select view. That applies to reality and vitural entertainment both.

[Master Warder Z_]

Steelcan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

I never project myself into my characters, so I consider what the character I'm playing would do rather than myself. So if he/she does something absolutely despicable it's on them not me. :S

Exactly!

Its why i can stomach working for Caesar's Legion in FO: NV

Well that and the uniforms are just awesome

That too!

The Bull Duster is pretty epic  

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I actually think it makes sense for acting out of greed to be more rewarding, financially, than not acting out of greed.

Usually, taking an altruistic approach makes it easier to access friendly resources later (though not always.) I don't mind that BioWare takes that approach. Heck, I won't kill for the Daedra in Skyrim, even though it has no negative consequences whatsoever. At least in Dragon Age, those choices will have some form of negative consequence, even if it's only the reaction of your companions.

[Br3admax]

Twirl your mustache and play Bad Karma Independent Courier. You know that you want to.

[OdanUrr]

AutumnWitch wrote...

How do you deal with hard moral and ethical choices in the Dragon Age games that you as a person would never do in a similar situation?

I ask myself what I would do in those circumstances and act accordingly within the constraints of the game.

I played the quest NIght Terrors in DA2 earlier today and I REALLY REALLY REALLY hate that if you make the "good" ethical choice (to save Feynriel's life) you basically get NOTHING except a silly book only worth 70sp. I find this so frustrating because I feel in this situation the want us to make the "bad" choice so we can get the reward (which is much much more substantial) for making the "bad" ethical choice and selling him out to the demon.

Well, to be fair, a demon would likely try to "sweeten the deal," wouldn't it? Otherwise, it would be a very poor excuse for a demon. Besides, you adhered to your principles and saved someone's life. I wouldn't call that "nothing."

I know in DAI we are going to have to make some hard choices but I hope the writers/developers make an effort to be a little more fair because it should ok to be the "good guy". I don't know what happened in the West, esp since nine-eleven, but it just seems that trying to do the right thing in the world, even in video games, has become so "uncool". I truly hope that DAI will allow us people who still believe in wearing the "white hat" to have as much fun and be just as rewarded as those who would rather play darker or middle of the road characters. Trust me, I understand the world is grey and not black and white but there are good people who do he right things nearly all the time and if this really is a "role playing game" there should be room for those of us who still want to ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after even as cliché and perhaps boring as it might seem for some people.

It is okay to be the "good guy," you simply want to make money off it as well. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. If anything, Bioware's definition of good and evil has been very rigid so far, lacking the grey you mentioned. If you've played Kotor 2 (incidentally, by Obsidian), Kreia teaches you a harsh lesson on the nature of good and evil when you arrive on Nar Shaddaa. As I remember it, a beggar asks you for some money. You can be charitable and give him the money, only for a thug to beat him and rob him seconds later. You can also be cruel to him what will result in him being cruel to others. How do you choose in this case? Which one has the better payoff?

Modifié par OdanUrr, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:27 .

[daveliam]

I actually like having the "good" decisions being less profitable for the character. It's more realistic, in my opinion, because in life the "good" decisions are often the ones that don't get you access to immediate benefits. That's why so many people choose the "bad" decisions. The immediate gratification is what sways people to bend their morals. If the "good" decision was also the profitable decision then it's the easy choice for pretty much all players that aren't specifically roleplaying "evil" (renegade, bad, etc.) characters.

[OdanUrr]

EntropicAngel wrote...

KotOR II is a terrible example, IMO. Obsidian has (or had, I suppose--or the writer had) a major bug up its rump about being good to people. They're more preachy, again IMO, than the supposed ME+Paragon slant.

Though, to be fair, you CAN play the "good" character if you want. The game doesn't prevent it. Just fights you every.step.of.the.way.

I did mention a very specific example within Kotor 2 because it's used by Kreia to teach you a lesson. In any event, it's far more than what I've seen in DA2.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

AutumnWitch wrote...

How do you deal with hard moral and ethical choices in the Dragon Age games that you as a person would never do in a similar situation?

Not do what I wouldn't do. Can't it just be that simple?

I played the quest NIght Terrors in DA2 earlier today and I REALLY REALLY REALLY hate that if you make the "good" ethical choice (to save Feynriel's life) you basically get NOTHING except a silly book only worth 70sp. I find this so frustrating because I feel in this situation the want us to make the "bad" choice so we can get the reward (which is much much more substantial) for making the "bad" ethical choice and selling him out to the demon.

And to rub salt in the wound if you are playing as a mage (who is good) and you make the deal you are basically turning your back on all that you are fighting for just to get a good reward.

I don't know for sure but I would suspect that their answer to this issue is that if you are good you are doing the deed to save the boy and that is reward in itself. But I find this really unsatisfying because as far as I know, there are no places in the whole game where if you make the good moral choice you actually receive a better reward than that of people playing as bad.

It's not like people wake up in the morning and decide "hey, I'm going to go do some evil stuff today!" before doing evil things. Almost nobody takes pleasure in harming others. However, people can be drawn to evil if they see something to gain from it. That's why it would be pointless to have decisions with clear "good" and "evil" options where they are rewarded equally, punished equally, or only reward the good and only punish the evil. Then it's a non-decision: if it makes no difference, nobody in their right mind will pick evil over good ... nor will anyone choose evil if they gain nothing and lose something.

As it relates to "Night Terrors," the only way to get anyone to consider an apalling act such as [giving Feynriel's mind over to a demon] is to tempt you with something you want (that's called greed, one typical human motivation to evil).

BTW, there's also the quest where you go out to save some abducted maiden, only to find Feynriel already has... in his own special way. That can be seen as a reward -- some XP there, and "validation" on a moral level for saving him.

I know in DAI we are going to have to make some hard choices but I hope the writers/developers make an effort to be a little more fair because it should ok to be the "good guy". I don't know what happened in the West, esp since nine-eleven, but it just seems that trying to do the right thing in the world, even in video games, has become so "uncool". I truly hope that DAI will allow us people who still believe in wearing the "white hat" to have as much fun and be just as rewarded as those who would rather play darker or middle of the road characters. Trust me, I understand the world is grey and not black and white but there are good people who do he right things nearly all the time and if this really is a "role playing game" there should be room for those of us who still want to ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after even as cliché and perhaps boring as it might seem for some people.

You're being really dramatic.

[Axdinosaurx]

I prefer choices that present multiple shades of grey rather than a clear cut good or bad.

[werewoof]

isn't that sort of the moral decision? do the good thing even though the reward isn't that great or do the evil thing for a better reward even though it's wrong?

but yeah i try to go by what my character would do rather than the metagame knowledge of which gives me better stats or whatever, which i imagine is sort of the point of roleplaying

Modifié par tiktac, 08 janvier 2014 - 04:46 .

[OdanUrr]

Axdinosaurx wrote...

I prefer choices that present multiple shades of grey rather than a clear cut good or bad.

Multiple as in fifty?

*runs and hides*