207 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Mmm. So would you agree? That 'apathy is death'?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

eluvianix wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

So out of curiousity what do you think about how they handled Connor?

I think the Connor choice should have worked if you'd already cleared the tower, but should NOT have worked if you had to go through it.

So if the tower hadn't been cleared ahead of time, you would prefer a more negative consequence for Connor?

The time it takes to clear the Tower isn't really significant, since if I remember correctly it takes a matter of days to get there anyway. I think unless you found some way to make sure Connor was restrained (leaving party members behind to guard him, for instance, or maybe having Jowan put up wards) he should have gone wild and started back up building another army whether or not the Tower was already cleared.

[Dave of Canada]

EntropicAngel wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

So if the tower hadn't been cleared ahead of time, you would prefer a more negative consequence for Connor?

More like, I'd be okay with it.

I'm not majorly opinionated on the issue. I just dislike the idea that you're never allowed to be good enough to accomplish more than one thing at a time.

Edit: I think your link is bad, Dave. Goes right back here.

http://www.youtube.c...NKcdlrg0bh4]Ops[/url].

[Dave of Canada]

Weird. Must be BSN related.

here's the flat link:

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 janvier 2014 - 10:36 .

[David7204]

So...what's the meaning of all this supposed to be? All your squadmates saying 'Apathy is Death'? Some kind of vision or something?

[KainD]

David7204 wrote...

So...what's the meaning of all this supposed to be? All your squadmates saying 'Apathy is Death'? Some kind of vision or something?

Yes, it's a force sensetive place filled with visions.

[David7204]

Well, that's certainly not the best first impression of KOTOR 2, then. That's not a theme I would welcome.

[Dave of Canada]

What "theme"?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 janvier 2014 - 11:03 .

[David7204]

That apathy is death? Isn't that what the narrative is doing? Revealing it to the player character through a vision and establishing it as 'true'?

[nightcobra]

the options in that situation though are, pick a side or the other or do nothing.

I'd rather have the option to say "you're all clearly not right in the head right now, perhaps you all will calm down after a good thrashing and then we can talk like civilized adults...and robot"

[HiroVoid]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

the options in that situation though are, pick a side or the other or do nothing.

I'd rather have the option to say "you're all clearly not right in the head right now, perhaps you all will calm down after a good thrashing and then we can talk like civilized adults...and robot"

I think in these kinds of situations it's implied people will fight to the death.

[esper]

Dragon age doesn't (thank the gods) have a morality systems so from a technical view point there is no 'evil' choice.

That said there are obvious choices, such as letting Fenryel be possessed that would cause any character others than those who enjoy pain to pause and think why. And these choices must be better paid because why would anyone do them otherwise?

The only reason 90% any character could have for handing an extremely powerfull mage over to a demon would will surely reck havock in the real world with his body would be if they gained something substantial from it. 


As for the Kreia thing, I loathe starwars in part because I loathe the Jedi/Sith philosofy. And I think that from what I have heard of Kreia I wouldn't like her. In the begger situation are the option to just ignore him or just apologieze and claim you have no spare change there? Problem with video games with morality system is that you are oftne stuck with a goody good messsiah or jerkish anti-christ that does selfdestructive things for the luzl.

[Dave of Canada]

esper wrote...

As for the Kreia thing, I loathe starwars in part because I loathe the Jedi/Sith philosofy.

You'd like Kreia, then. Kreia is anti-Star Wars, one of the reasons a lot of people feel KOTOR2 didn't feel like Star Wars. She hates both Jedi and Sith, believing them as extremes and both are dangerous. She tries to teach the player to be in the middle ground, seeing things from both perspectives and that good intentions (Ex: Jedi Order) can cause great catastrophe as much as bad ones.

Unfortunately, the game couldn't handle the fact that it's a Star Wars game and it's impossible to please Kreia by being neutral. Her dialogue defaults to whatever side of the line you lean on, no matter if you're die-hard Light / Dark or just 5 points in it.

In the begger situation are the option to just ignore him or just apologieze and claim you have no spare change there?

There's multiple options but it all boils down to whether or not you give the beggar change, Kreia shows you what the Beggar does while narrating to you.

I've only been able to find the speech she gives if you chose to give him change:

Kreia: If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself... and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 janvier 2014 - 11:32 .

[David7204]

esper wrote...

Dragon age doesn't (thank the gods) have a morality systems so from a technical view point there is no 'evil' choice.

Err...perhaps from a 'technical' point of view, for whatever the counts for.

From a narrative point of view, which is what matters, stories do not need and have never needed 'morality' meters to establish something as good or evil. Other mediums have been able to establish good and evil just fine without them.

So this just isn't true. There are 'evil' choices.

Modifié par David7204, 08 janvier 2014 - 11:35 .

[Dave of Canada]

David7204 wrote...

Other mediums have been able to establish good and evil just fine without them.

Unless the writers are terrible and portray the so-called "evil" with evil twirling mustaches, evil laughs and what say you, there's usually a lot of people who can sympathize with and support the "evil". Again to bring up Star Wars, George Lucas had to add scenes in because many people sympathized with the Empire and believed the Rebels were the ones in the wrong.

Hell, there's still arguments to this day despite all of this and that's excluding the expanded universe which made the Empire seem like it wasn't exactly a terrible thing.

[David7204]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I've only been able to find the speech she gives if you chose to give him change:

Kreia: If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself... and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory.

What choices is the player given to respond to that?

[Dave of Canada]

David7204 wrote...

What choices is the player given to respond to that?

You either agree with her or don't, she's trying to be a teacher to you and whether you listen to her lessons is entirely up to you. Whether you want to be a bleeding heart Jedi or a cold hearted Sith, she'll teach you no matter what because you are her pupil.

[esper]

Dave of Canada wrote...

esper wrote...

As for the Kreia thing, I loathe starwars in part because I loathe the Jedi/Sith philosofy.

You'd like Kreia, then. Kreia is anti-Star Wars, one of the reasons a lot of people feel KOTOR2 didn't feel like Star Wars. She hates both Jedi and Sith, believing them as extremes and both are dangerous. She tries to teach the player to be in the middle ground, seeing things from both perspectives and that good intentions (Ex: Jedi Order) can cause great catastrophe as much as bad ones.

Unfortunately, the game couldn't handle the fact that it's a Star Wars game and it's impossible to please Kreia by being neutral. Her dialogue defaults to whatever side of the line you lean on, no matter if you're die-hard Light / Dark or just 5 points in it.

In the begger situation are the option to just ignore him or just apologieze and claim you have no spare change there?

There's multiple options but it all boils down to whether or not you give the beggar change, Kreia shows you what the Beggar does while narrating to you.

I've only been able to find the speech she gives if you chose to give him change:

Kreia: If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself... and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory.

I am glad to hear that there are multiple options at least, it does at least makes it a little less black and white. But your quoted example is why I think I don't like Kreia,

Now I might be wrong as I have never played the game, but Kreia seems misantropic or nihilistic and doesn't she tries to destory the force or something like that? Kreia might have been interesting, but she is still a child of the star wars universe, which means that she is stuck in a world where she will be proven wrong no matter what. The thing as I understand it Kreia is the poster child for 'not thinking in black and white' makes you evil - or taking it a step further, people who even consider morality are at the least the very least a jerk. After all YOU can never please her. Never learn from her as the game works against you.

[David7204]

Dave of Canada wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Other mediums have been able to establish good and evil just fine without them.

Unless the writers are terrible and portray the so-called "evil" with evil twirling mustaches, evil laughs and what say you, there's usually a lot of people who can sympathize with and support the "evil".

First of all, you seem to be tying villains who are clearly evil to immaturity and 'bad writing.' Which is just nonsense. Unambigiously evil characteristics can be and often are very deep and meaningful. In fact, it's generally the opposite. Writers tend to screw up on villains they attempt to make ambiguious, usually because the reasons that supposedly 'force' the otherwise decent person into so called 'evil' are often contrived and uncompelling. 

Second of all, it's a phenomanon I've been steadily holding less and less respect for. When I see people gleefully (and very seriously) supporting villains like Caesar's Legion in New Vegas, it leads to me to conclude they're either fools and hypocrites on the internet, or cowards and weaklings in reality. Neither of which are comforting, obviously. And not people great fiction should strive to appeal to.

Modifié par David7204, 08 janvier 2014 - 11:50 .

[KainD]

David7204 wrote...
When I see people gleefully (and very seriously) supporting villains like Caesar's Legion in New Vegas, it leads to me to conclude they're either fools and hypocrites on the internet, or cowards and weaklings in reality. Neither of which are comforting, obviously. 

''Obviously'', if you mostly like how most of the civilized  world currently functions, it should be very comforting for you to know that these people are cowards and weaklings. 

[esper]

David7204 wrote...

esper wrote...

Dragon age doesn't (thank the gods) have a morality systems so from a technical view point there is no 'evil' choice.

Err...perhaps from a 'technical' point of view, for whatever the counts for.

From a narrative point of view, which is what matters, stories do not need and have never needed 'morality' meters to establish something as good or evil. Other mediums have been able to establish good and evil just fine without them.

So this just isn't true. There are 'evil' choices.

Sure they can, but I never read books or watch movies where the aesop is obviously tacked on unless I happen to agree with that aesop. Also without the morality meter I as a consumer of the medium can at least understand the story as it is. That means the chance I throw the controller away in disgust and says... 'I simply can't rea/play/watch this story anymore' is lessened. It is still there because sometimes the moral becomes to obvious, but at least I don't get a 'brain wash the geth' situation as in mass effect 2.

[David7204]

Nah. Even if they really were strong in their beliefs, they'd never gain any traction. They'd never be a threat either way. But this way I would at least respect them for being honest.

Modifié par David7204, 08 janvier 2014 - 11:58 .

[KainD]

David7204 wrote...

Nah. Even if they really were strong in their beliefs, they'd never gain any traction. But I would at least respect them for being honest.

I am not talking about strength of belief, obviously it is present and people are mostly honest on the internet in serious discussions. I am talking about influance and compitence. Without it, it's not always worth it.