207 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

It's not present. They might think they're honest, but they're not.

You go to any New Vegas forum or even a Fallout discussion of the BSN, and you'll see a serious chunk of the population supporting the Legion. At least 10%, right? Likely a lot more.

Why do I not see this in real life? Why do I not see people demanding a society of total submission to the state, where the individual has no rights or freedoms? Now, obviously, I can't point to any specific person, since not everyone does or would support the Legion online. But many do, and you'd think, statistically, I would come across such people now and again, wouldn't you?

But I don't. Hell, I think the amount of people in the western world who wouldn't shriek their lungs out at the idea of a society where the individual has no value aside from his utility to the state would miniscule.

Modifié par David7204, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:09 .

[KainD]

@David7204
I wasn't present in these discussions. How do these people support a society of submission to the state, what do they say?

[David7204]

For the most part, it seems they imagine themselves in one of the immensely rare positions of dictator or authority or something, and think that by eliminating rights and freedoms they would achieve and lead a society of ultra-competence and ultra-efficiency.

Err...have you played New Vegas? I can give you a good summery of the Legion, if you haven't.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David7204 wrote...

It's not present. They might think they're honest, but they're not.

You go to any New Vegas forum or even a Fallout discussion of the BSN, and you'll see a serious chunk of the population supporting the Legion. At least 10%, right? Likely a lot more.

Why do I not see this in real life? Why do I not see people demanding a society of total submission to the state, where the individual has no rights or freedoms? Now, obviously, I can't point to any specific person, since not everyone does or would support the Legion online. But many do, and you'd think, statistically, I would come across such people now and again, wouldn't you?

But I don't. Hell, I think the amount of people in the western world who wouldn't shriek their lungs out at the idea of a society where the individual has no value aside from his utility to the state would miniscule.

Davey how extensive is your list of prepared responses?

Because it seems like you always have to cycle through the same dozen or so things to say.

HEROISM! this, CHARACTERIZATION that.

Poor dear you just really need to be exposed to some quality fiction.

[KainD]

@David7204

No I haven't played New Vegas. You can give me a summary.

But see, it's already a lot more clear. These people fantasize about being in power, they are true to their beliefs and wouldn't condemn themselves for praying on the weaker. As they are not powerful in real life, there is no point in supporting a system like that. Doesn't it make sense?

[esper]

Isn't Fallout post acolpolypsis though? I never finished fallout 3, so I don't know them, but I can imagine that some might think that in the situation they are the less of the evils.

Also the Qunari have sympathisers/supporters on this forum, so some does find the 'complete tool of the state' sympathic at the least.

[Ieldra]

KainD wrote...
@David7204

No I haven't played New Vegas. You can give me a summary.

But see, it's already a lot more clear. These people fantasize about being in power, they are true to their beliefs and wouldn't condemn themselves for praying on the weaker. As they are not powerful in real life, there is no point in supporting a system like that. Doesn't it make sense?

There is a difference between taking the Legion's side in the game and arguing for the Legion's merit on the forums. There are indeed those who do the latter, and I think most of those are hypocrites.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:24 .

[Dave of Canada]

KainD wrote...

@David7204

No I haven't played New Vegas. You can give me a summary. 

But see, it's already a lot more clear. These people fantasize about being in power, they are true to their beliefs and wouldn't condemn themselves for praying on the weaker. As they are not powerful in real life, there is no point in supporting a system like that. Doesn't it make sense?

You've got three factions.

NCR which are incompetent but very freedom-oriented provided you pay their harsh taxes and serve their goals, they're spread thin and might lead you to the death of your community but they're well-intended and have a good establishment in their homeland but also suffer from political corruption and can't sustain their rate of expansion.

Mr House which is very competent, has a long-term goal for New Vegas but is unreliable in terms of being an old man who's being kept alive by machines and all his plans could die with him at any moment. That and he's stuck in the old ways of society. Mr House is the sole person in his faction, everyone else is an automated robot under his command and he likes it that way.

Then you've got the Legion, a well-trained military who converts those they conquer (if they don't crucify them) and follows strict rules such as no alcohol, etc. They loot, pillage and burn across the Wasteland to reform society into one that shuns away from technology because technology is what led to the world being destroyed in the first place. Society revolves around their leader Caesar but he's got subordinates who serve him.

That's the jist of it, though you can say screw it to all three and go independent which might or might not screw over the Mojave. Personally, the House always wins but the Legion > NCR.

Edit: Oops, quoted wrong post. Fixed now.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:28 .

[David7204]

KainD wrote...

@David7204

No I haven't played New Vegas. You can give me a summary.

But see, it's already a lot more clear. These people fantasize about being in power, they are true to their beliefs and wouldn't condemn themselves for praying on the weaker. As they are not powerful in real life, there is no point in supporting a system like that. Doesn't it make sense?

The thing is, there are four factions to choose from, and all four place the player in a position of great power at the end. One of them basically gives the player sole and entire control of Vegas and the surrounding region.

But then again, that scenario doesn't apply to real life, and the Legion theoretically could...

[Br3admax]

Ieldra2 wrote...

KainD wrote...
@David7204

No I haven't played New Vegas. You can give me a summary.

But see, it's already a lot more clear. These people fantasize about being in power, they are true to their beliefs and wouldn't condemn themselves for praying on the weaker. As they are not powerful in real life, there is no point in supporting a system like that. Doesn't it make sense?

There is a difference between taking the Legion's side in the game and arguing for the Legion's merit on the forums. There are indeed those who do the latter, and I think most of those are hypocrites.

Very few people follow the Legion becasue we personally want to rape and pillage a few villages. Even if we were the Courier personally. We side with the Legion because it is stronger than the NCR, which will eventually run out of luck at its current rate of expansion, and under the command of its very incompetent General. It takes a little more than, "Freedom , cuz we 'Muricans!" to actually control the amount of land that America curently does. The NCR does not know this, however, apparently. And they are just as awful to people outside the NCR as the Legion is to anyone. If anyone is hypocritical, look no further.

Modifié par Br3ad, 08 janvier 2014 - 12:39 .

[KainD]

Dave of Canada wrote...

That's the jist of it, though you can say screw it to all three and go independent which might or might not screw over the Mojave. 

That's interesting. Is there a main plot in the game? 

[David7204]

You're a courier. You get shot in the head and have something stolen from you. You track down the guy who shot you, meet the three factions, pick which one to side with, and gather allies.

That's about it.

[sassyJacen]

I feel like an ahole when I make bad/evil decisions in dragon age, so I reload...alot.

[CroGamer002]

Dave of Canada wrote...

That's the jist of it, though you can say screw it to all three and go independent which might or might not screw over the Mojave. Personally, the House always wins but the Legion > NCR.

How the hell you can choose anti-technology genocidal-loving warmongering bigoted sexist uneducated ignorant tyrannical zealots over anyone?

NCR may have has serious problems and it's too big for it's own and everyone else good, but the Legion is death set to get same problems NCR has in close future.

Modifié par Mesina2, 08 janvier 2014 - 01:36 .

[KainD]

This Legion reminds me a bit of Templars from Deus Ex.

[JoltDealer]

In reality, being "evil" is easier. You may not make friends or keep allies, but you will succeed because you play by a completely different set of rules. In games like Dragon Age, it's the same. Let the werewolves kill the Dalish and you now have an army of powerful beasts to fight the darkspawn. An army of Golems would be an incredibly useful asset in a war, but they require living souls to make. Being good or evil requires that you put aside certain things.

To be bad, you must put aside your value of life and basic human decency in order to make the sacrifices necessary to accomplish your goals. To be good, you have to put aside practicality in order to do the right thing despite the fact that it will gain you nothing aside from gratitude. But in life, and Dragon Age, you don't have to adhere to either good or evil and it's better to live in a moral grey area. Do good where you can, but never forget a little bad has its place.

[Augustei]

David7204 wrote...

It's not present. They might think they're honest, but they're not.

You
go to any New Vegas forum or even a Fallout discussion of the BSN, and
you'll see a serious chunk of the population supporting the Legion. At
least 10%, right? Likely a lot more.

Why do I not see this in
real life? Why do I not see people demanding a society of total
submission to the state, where the individual has no rights or freedoms?
Now, obviously, I can't point to any specific person, since not
everyone does or would support the Legion online. But many do, and you'd
think, statistically, I would come across such people now and again,
wouldn't you?

But I don't. Hell, I think the amount of people in
the western world who wouldn't shriek their lungs out at the idea of a
society where the individual has no value aside from his utility to the
state would miniscule.

I side with the
legion, I must say if there were a totalitarian power led by an
intelligent charming bastard like Caesar I would welcome our new mighty
overlord *bows*
If it were the incompetent Renvil Harrowmonts that
fill the senatorial chambers everywhere nowdays then I would of course
oppose it however, Don't need to be lorded over by fools

David7204 wrote...

You're a courier. You get shot in the
head and have something stolen from you. You track down the guy who shot
you, meet the three factions, pick which one to side with, and gather
allies.

That's about it.

That is the worst plot summary I have ever heard, Its also false.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:46 .

[Augustei]

Double Post

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:47 .

[Augustei]

Edit: Damnit! Triple Post

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 08 janvier 2014 - 02:46 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think most of the support of the Legion is based more around the fact that it is the only faction that we know of so far, that has established total order and cleared their territory of raiders and bandits. Say what you will about the culture, but it is at least safe to be a caravan in the Legion's territory.

[Augustei]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think most of the support of the Legion is based more around the fact that it is the only faction that we know of so far, that has established total order and cleared their territory of raiders and bandits. Say what you will about the culture, but it is at least safe to be a caravan in the Legion's territory.

Plus they have that scary badass Darth Vader Legate Lanius

[Ieldra]

Crimson Sound wrote...
In reality, being "evil" is easier. You may not make friends or keep allies, but you will succeed because you play by a completely different set of rules. In games like Dragon Age, it's the same. Let the werewolves kill the Dalish and you now have an army of powerful beasts to fight the darkspawn. An army of Golems would be an incredibly useful asset in a war, but they require living souls to make. Being good or evil requires that you put aside certain things.

To be bad, you must put aside your value of life and basic human decency in order to make the sacrifices necessary to accomplish your goals. To be good, you have to put aside practicality in order to do the right thing despite the fact that it will gain you nothing aside from gratitude. But in life, and Dragon Age, you don't have to adhere to either good or evil and it's better to live in a moral grey area. Do good where you can, but never forget a little bad has its place.

That is all incorrect. There is no absolute measure of good and bad, it all depends on your meta-ethics and where certain values stand in your personal value hierarchy. Talk with a person who has different meta-ethics and/or a different value hierarchy than you, and you'll end up disagreeing about what's good or bad, and there's no ultimate truth to the matter, though some things exist almost all humans would agree on.

Also, doing "bad stuff" for a better outcome is not necessarily easy, no. Killing Mordin to prevent the genophage cure in ME3 was one of the hardest things I ever did in a game. It all depends on how much a story makes you care about the people you're about to sacrifice to a bigger goal.

[Medhia Nox]

People can develop an acceptance to routine slavery... it's just the way humans are. It's what keeps slaves, as slaves.

The Legion is predictable for their slaves. It is safe, if you follow the rules. The cruelty is predictable, and you can avoid it, if you follow the rules.

In the wasteland - there is nothing to say you won't get raped, eaten, robbed, imprisoned the next day. In the Legion - there is routine, and that is appealing to all humans (yes, even "you")

This, of course, is for the already conquered peoples. Very few would choose the Legion with better alternatives.

But a male who was competent with weaponry, not hooked on chems and has no problem with slavery.. might find the red tape of the NCR to be pathetic in light of the reality of the wasteland.

You also have to remember that technology is exactly what created the wasteland - and the people of Fallout know it, it's not some questionable mystery. The Legion isn't anti-tech... they are tech-independent.

All of this being said - unless I was specifically roleplaying someone I found abhorrent in real life - I would never side with the Legion. But to dismiss the appeal of that kind of society out of hand - is shortsighted.

[superdeathdealer14]

Wait just wait a sec..... people actually like making good choices in games? whhhaaattt, impossible surely everyone must prefer being a douche then being a nice person.