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Ethical and Moral Choices in the DA Series

Débuté par AutumnWitch , janv. 08 2014 03:06

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#151
MassivelyEffective0730
Posté 08 janvier 2014 - 11:46

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David7204 wrote...

That's certainly on the table, yeah. They could just kill the person threatening innocent people. Or maybe beat them senseless.


Or find out why they're threatening innocent people in the first place. What they hope to accomplish, and what they hope to gain.

#152
Invisible Man
Posté 08 janvier 2014 - 11:58

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Does it serve a purpose, like furthering your goals, or is it something more intrinsic. I'm kind of asking for all of the things.


oh, ok... now I understand the question.
I suppose I do kind of live my life by that ideal. or perhaps it's simply an idea not a fully formed ideal. though I came to that conclusion from reading books, playing games, videogames to some extent, but most of that came from a few good AD&D playthroughs & a few good books.


---edit
I miss my immortals, and my 7 or 8 book series of novels. I used to have a little collection of sagas, both newish & a few classics.

Modifié par Invisible Man, 09 janvier 2014 - 12:06 .

#153
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 01:47

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Kreia: If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself... and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory.



The problem with this is that some struggles are, quite simply, beyond the power of those people.

A bunch of scientists trapped in Nassana Dantius' tower have no way to defend themselves against mercs. No way at all. So helping them is not, in fact, "stealing a struggle from them." It's doing for them what they cannot do for themselves.

#154
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 01:50

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David7204 wrote...

It's not present. They might think they're honest, but they're not.

You go to any New Vegas forum or even a Fallout discussion of the BSN, and you'll see a serious chunk of the population supporting the Legion. At least 10%, right? Likely a lot more.

Why do I not see this in real life? Why do I not see people demanding a society of total submission to the state, where the individual has no rights or freedoms? Now, obviously, I can't point to any specific person, since not everyone does or would support the Legion online. But many do, and you'd think, statistically, I would come across such people now and again, wouldn't you?

But I don't. Hell, I think the amount of people in the western world who wouldn't shriek their lungs out at the idea of a society where the individual has no value aside from his utility to the state would miniscule.


Looking around you, David. it's happening before your eyes.

Freedom vs. security. It's happening, right now. The pendulum is swinging towards security...and people are accepting it.

Patriot Act, anyone?

#155
Rotward
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 01:55

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Looking around you, David. it's happening before your eyes.

Freedom vs. security. It's happening, right now. The pendulum is swinging towards security...and people are accepting it.

Patriot Act, anyone?

People who aren't indoctrinated by fox news are appalled by the patriot act. There's going to be a breaking point, hopefully. The patriot act is the reason there are so many conspiracy theorists, but honestly, I think the American government being opportunistic is as bad as any conspiracy. 

#156
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Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 01:56

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Rly? Then why peoples in real life often break their morals to do what is convenient and more beneficial...

I don't think they do.  What I think this demonstrates is that the people did a poor job of describing their own morals in advance.

How they act does reflect their morals.  They might just not admit that those are their morals.


The difference between who they are and who they want to be, one might say.

#157
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 01:59

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Rotward wrote...

People who aren't indoctrinated by fox news are appalled by the patriot act. There's going to be a breaking point, hopefully. The patriot act is the reason there are so many conspiracy theorists, but honestly, I think the American government being opportunistic is as bad as any conspiracy. 


It's got nothing to do with political parties. Obama signed an extension.

It's got everything to do with freedom vs. security. Society is trending towards security.

A fun article I discovered the other day about Chicago and Watch Dogs:

http://www.polygon.c...h-dogs-invasion

Everyone should read it.

#158
Augustei
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 04:16

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To paraphrase Taggart from DXHR: "Liberty goes hand in hand with Chaos"

#159
Rotward
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 04:21

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Rotward wrote...

People who aren't indoctrinated by fox news are appalled by the patriot act. There's going to be a breaking point, hopefully. The patriot act is the reason there are so many conspiracy theorists, but honestly, I think the American government being opportunistic is as bad as any conspiracy. 


It's got nothing to do with political parties. Obama signed an extension.

I didn't say anything about political parties. I said fox news. As far as I know, they're the only station that's painting things like the patriot act as a desirable change. I'm aware that Obama's supporting the act, especially with the NSA's recent increases in power. 

#160
DarthSliver
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 04:27

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Rotward wrote...

People who aren't indoctrinated by fox news are appalled by the patriot act. There's going to be a breaking point, hopefully. The patriot act is the reason there are so many conspiracy theorists, but honestly, I think the American government being opportunistic is as bad as any conspiracy. 


It's got nothing to do with political parties. Obama signed an extension.

It's got everything to do with freedom vs. security. Society is trending towards security.

A fun article I discovered the other day about Chicago and Watch Dogs:

http://www.polygon.c...h-dogs-invasion

Everyone should read it.


Would mine messaging me what that is about, that link tried to give my browser Aids

#161
Angrywolves
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 04:37

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Ninja Stan doesn't like political discussions.Please keep that in mind

Some players will play as good guys, some players will play as bad guys and some will switch back and forth.

Laidlaw said months ago that certain player actions could lock those players out of content, but he wasn't more specific than that.We assume there's only succeed or fail final endings.might be interesting if there were multiple endings based on major decisions you as a player made in the game.

#162
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 05:20

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DarthSliver wrote...

Would mine messaging me what that is about, that link tried to give my browser Aids


Lol! it's definitely a CPU intensive page. All the comments are about it.

Basically, in Chicago, there are thousands of cameras tied into a single system and to a single room where a group of people watch them. These cameras are on most roadways, in good and bad neighborhoods. They're even in some buidlings--some businesses have voluntarily sent their feeds over to this government system.

The website tried to find out how much footage these cameras gave, and what exactly was done with the footage. They were not given answers.

Basically, Chicago is under constant government surveillance, right now, and it's all linked into a single system. And no one knows what they do with all of that information.


If you didn't know, Watch Dogs is a video game by Ubisoft about this exact thing set in...Chicago. The game was conceived four or five years ago. It's about a character who gains access to this citywide surveillance system and uses it to exact his own "justice." He's a vigilante.

This is a video game that isn't just based on reality--it is reality. Basically, using the claim of greater security, one might argue they're reducing the privacy of citizens. Few seem to mind, though.

#163
Invisible Man
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 05:43

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basically, if you frighten a population to a high enough extreme, they will give up just about anything to feel the illusion of security. I've seen this stuff coming since 1998. in 1999, I made predictions based on a 10 year cycle of actions, to my horror all those guesses came true, in about 4 years time.

#164
Dave of Canada
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 08:13

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EntropicAngel wrote...

The problem with this is that some struggles are, quite simply, beyond the power of those people.

A bunch of scientists trapped in Nassana Dantius' tower have no way to defend themselves against mercs. No way at all. So helping them is not, in fact, "stealing a struggle from them." It's doing for them what they cannot do for themselves.


Unlike Jade Empire which makes Closed Fist seem like some benevolant ****, Kreia never scolds you for saving people when they can't be saved by any other means. She only scolds you for more passive things like the beggar scenario or involving yourself in a conflict which you aren't supposed to be part of, etc.

In a sense, she's more proud of a light sided Exile than dark side despite the scolding. She absolutely detests the Dark Side Exile if you choose to play that way, she's trying to teach everyone that being grey doesn't mean you're dark side and then you go full dark, showing to her that you're a failure of a student which makes her feel as a failure of a teacher.

Her entire reason for the almost everything (keyword: almost) is trying to show everyone that grey =/= bad and that believing light = good is shortsighted.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 janvier 2014 - 08:14 .

#165
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 09:40

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Unlike Jade Empire which makes Closed Fist seem like some benevolant ****, Kreia never scolds you for saving people when they can't be saved by any other means. She only scolds you for more passive things like the beggar scenario or involving yourself in a conflict which you aren't supposed to be part of, etc.

In a sense, she's more proud of a light sided Exile than dark side despite the scolding. She absolutely detests the Dark Side Exile if you choose to play that way, she's trying to teach everyone that being grey doesn't mean you're dark side and then you go full dark, showing to her that you're a failure of a student which makes her feel as a failure of a teacher.

Her entire reason for the almost everything (keyword: almost) is trying to show everyone that grey =/= bad and that believing light = good is shortsighted.


How do we know that the beggar could have overcome that struggle? For all we know the beggar is, I dunno, a PTSD-ridden war vet (a Star Wars version of a war vet, anyway). We don't know enough about the beggar to claim he is competent and that we're only enabling him.

Make no mistake--I see the difference between enabling people and giving them a helping hand. I just don't think Kreia does. Or she trends too far on one side.

And I've never played a Dark Side character, but I'd imagine that's so, given her...past, shall we say. And yet she returns to it.

#166
David7204
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 09:44

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It's just not true.

#167
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 10:18

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Who are you talking to, David? Use quotes or names.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 09 janvier 2014 - 10:18 .

#168
David7204
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 10:32

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I'm talking about the general Kreia quote.

#169
Star fury
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 10:40

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Bioware should give us an agonizing choice like in the end of the Pitt DLC of Fallout 3(even if cheap). Something like to save the world or to save something really important like a life of a small kitten.

Modifié par Star fury, 09 janvier 2014 - 11:25 .

#170
David7204
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 10:46

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What the hell? There's no 'agonizing choice' at the end of Broken Steel. It's kill the Brotherhood for no reason or don't. An incredibly easy choice.

Or am I missing a joke?

#171
Dave of Canada
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 11:37

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David7204 wrote...

What the hell? There's no 'agonizing choice' at the end of Broken Steel. It's kill the Brotherhood for no reason or don't. An incredibly easy choice.

Or am I missing a joke?


Except they didn't mention Broken Steel.

EntropicAngel wrote...

How do we know that the beggar could have overcome that struggle? For all we know the beggar is, I dunno, a PTSD-ridden war vet (a Star Wars version of a war vet, anyway).


Maybe. It reminded me a lot of my friend's trip to a poverty-striken nation, the guide told them to not give anything to the people begging for food because they'd likely be killed by someone else who wanted it. It's probably why I like that scene so much.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 janvier 2014 - 11:41 .

#172
EmperorSahlertz
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 11:42

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David7204 wrote...

What the hell? There's no 'agonizing choice' at the end of Broken Steel. It's kill the Brotherhood for no reason or don't. An incredibly easy choice.

Or am I missing a joke?

The Pitt ended with you havcing the choice of letting an oppresive system endure, but that would eventually lead to the betterment of the entire region (potentially), or overthrow said system, by murdering its leader and allowing his baby child to be murdered aswell, this would destabilize the entire region, but at least people would be "free".

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 janvier 2014 - 11:43 .

#173
KainD
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 12:13

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Unlike Jade Empire which makes Closed Fist seem like some benevolant ****.


I remember making a slave girl butcher her master, and her reaction to it. That felt so good. 

#174
DRTJR
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 01:44

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In Fallout New Vegas siding with the Legion is just bad, because after Ceaser dies their massive army will fracture and destabilize, were as the NCR have stability in their leadership.

In Fallout 3 The Pitt has the more grey choices of Freedom paired with Anarchy or Oppression paired with the very real promise of progress for the region.

#175
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*
Posté 09 janvier 2014 - 03:26

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For the large, world changing choices, I am a complete utilitarian. For example, I try to cure the werewolf plague because that would solve the problem for the elves and the werewovles. I also have no problem killing the Arl's son in Redcliffe because we need the Arl's wife more than we need the son, and his death will solve the problem.

In that sense, I can't do something that will please me at the expense of someone else, for I am no more important than someone else. So when it comes down to quests that put me in unnecessary danger to save some, then I'll do it to save that person and make that person's associtates happy.
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