Aller au contenu

Photo

Let's talk about Saren, the Illusive Man, and BioWare's intentions


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
55 réponses à ce sujet

#1
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages
This thread is not really about the Indoctrination Theory. That's not what I want to focus on. Instead, this thread is about the thematic implications of the final choices, and the random thoughts I’ve had about them lately.

Here are some Saren quotes:

"I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines. And in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed."

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth."


Here are some Illusive Man quotes:

"When humanity discovered the mass relays, when we learned there was more to the galaxy than we imagined, there were some who thought the relays should be destroyed. They were scared of what we'd find, terrified of what we might let in. But look at what humanity has achieved. Since that discovery, we've advanced more than the past ten thousand years combined!"

"Control is the means to survival."


We all know that Saren and the Illusive Man were indoctrinated. What, then, are we supposed to make of these quotes? 

I'm going to keep it real here: I agree with them. It makes sense that we will continue to implant ourselves with technology. The future might indeed look something like Saren. I also agree that the reason we are the dominant species on Earth is because we learned how to control our environment, other species, etc. The more control one has, the more likely one will survive.

But because these quotes come from indoctrinated individuals, are they intended to be objectively wrong? Has BioWare set up these arguments to be refuted, rejected, knocked down, etc.? There is a reason why so many people found the Indoctrination Theory so compelling; there are clear parallels between these quotes and Synthesis and Control.

And of course, here is Anderson's famous quote:

"We destroy them, or they destroy us."

When we put all of this information together, there is no denying that Destroy comes out looking better than Synthesis and Control. Frankly, there appears to be only one correct choice. It's not that Shepard becomes indoctrinated if he chooses Synthesis or Control, but that he didn't learn from the villains' mistakes. In a sense, it feels like Shepard "loses" the Mass Effect trilogy. He has become the monster that he was supposed to defeat.

And that's what bothers me. People are all too willing to reject Saren's and the Illusive Man's arguments because they were indoctrinated, and that must mean they were completely wrong. Personally, I agree with them more than I agree with Anderson’s “them or us” mentality. But it doesn’t help that BioWare promoted that way of thinking through all three games… until the very last minute. I don’t want to force anyone to implant themselves, and I don’t want to dominate other sapient beings. But I also don’t want to destroy the “other”, or “that which is not like me”, which is what I see when I look at Destroy. I know people see it as “freedom”, but I see it as “organic freedom”. It implies that we must reject the machines because they will make us less than human, which is a theme that began in Mass Effect 1.

According to Casey Hudson, he just wanted the ending to make players think about these things without actually making a statement. Well, it appears that most people chose Destroy, which does indeed fit the story that came before. Shepard’s survival even feels like a reward. It is possible that BioWare intended to overturn the old ways of thinking right at the end, and make Control and Synthesis viable, but most of the fanbase, or perhaps the loud part of the fanbase, has declared that straying from the original path is wrong. 

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 09 janvier 2014 - 12:09 .


#2
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 358 messages
Because they weren't presented as viable until THE LEADER OF THE REAPERS, said "Ya, those indoctrinated guys actually had the right idea"

#3
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 531 messages
The fact that you can make Saren and TIM commit suicide despite being indoctrinated through proving how wrong they are sort of belies that a bit.

#4
Axdinosaurx

Axdinosaurx
  • Members
  • 136 messages
It's hard to take what they say seriously when the reapers are controlling their thoughts. Even harder when you show them the error of their ways and they kill themselves when they realize what they've done.

#5
CynicalShep

CynicalShep
  • Members
  • 2 381 messages
You're overthinking this, IMO. It's a lot simpler. Big squids started annihilating "us". Whatever their reasoning or motivations - they came here to make sure we cease to exist. I don't care about the moral or philosophical implications - they want me dead = I want them dead. Whoever is left alive in the end wins.

#6
OdanUrr

OdanUrr
  • Members
  • 11 063 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This thread is not really about the Indoctrination Theory.


Not really the best way to start your thread.

#7
Obadiah

Obadiah
  • Members
  • 5 773 messages
I look at TIM and Saren's statements as simply ironic.

#8
His Name was HYR!!

His Name was HYR!!
  • Members
  • 9 145 messages
TIM's quote is 100% true, just a bit beside the point. Doesn't matter that he was indoctrinated. It would be like an indoctrinated person saying "1 + 1 = 2" -- being indoctrinated doesn't suddenly make you wrong about everything. Still, I agree with the principle, and it's why Destroy is my last choice of the three.

Saren's thing fails because he's operating on an empty promise from Sovvy. That's not a concern with the end of ME3. It's explicitly stated that each option at hand is achieved by the Crucible. Independently.

And Anderson is just a stupid grunt, per the usual. Another thing TIM was absolutely right about. Destroy is jingoism.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 09 janvier 2014 - 12:30 .


#9
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 531 messages

Saren's thing fails because he's operating on an empty promise from Sovvy. That's not a concern with the end of ME3. It's explicitly stated that each option at hand is achieved by the Crucible. Independently.


Which is an empty promise from Soovy's Boss..

#10
His Name was HYR!!

His Name was HYR!!
  • Members
  • 9 145 messages

von uber wrote...


Saren's thing fails because he's operating on an empty promise from Sovvy. That's not a concern with the end of ME3. It's explicitly stated that each option at hand is achieved by the Crucible. Independently.


Which is an empty promise from Soovy's Boss..



Only if you subscribe to long-since-broken "Deception"-nonsense theories.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 09 janvier 2014 - 12:35 .


#11
CosmicGnosis

CosmicGnosis
  • Members
  • 1 594 messages

HYR 2.0 wrote...

TIM's quote is 100% true, just a bit beside the point. Doesn't matter that he was indoctrinated. It would be like an indoctrinated person saying "1 + 1 = 2" -- being indoctrinated doesn't suddenly make you wrong about everything. Still, I agree with the principle, and it's why Destroy is my last choice of the three.

Saren's thing fails because he's operating on an empty promise from Sovvy. That's not a concern with the end of ME3. It's explicitly stated that each option at hand is achieved by the Crucible. Independently.

And Anderson is just a stupid grunt, per the usual. Another thing TIM was absolutely right about. Destroy is jingoism.


Yes, but it still feels wrong. I know that shouldn't matter, but in a story, it does.

#12
Clayless

Clayless
  • Members
  • 7 051 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Well, it appears that most people chose Destroy,


Most people chose Destroy?

Anyone have a source?

#13
OdanUrr

OdanUrr
  • Members
  • 11 063 messages

CosmicGnosis wrote...

And that's what bothers me. People are all too willing to reject Saren's and the Illusive Man's arguments because they were indoctrinated, and that must mean they were completely wrong.


No. I rejected Saren's argument because: 1) he was deluding himself into thinking we could convince the Reapers to keep us as slaves; and 2) he was rationalizing what Sovereign had done to him in order to control him as the next step in evolution.

As for TIM, with his strong anti-alien bias, I wouldn't want him anywhere near controlling the Reapers.

#14
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

CynicalShep wrote...

You're overthinking this, IMO. It's a lot simpler. Big squids started annihilating "us". Whatever their reasoning or motivations - they came here to make sure we cease to exist. I don't care about the moral or philosophical implications - they want me dead = I want them dead. Whoever is left alive in the end wins.


I like this human. He understands.

It's no different than a schoolyard brawl. This stuff isn't that deep. Kick them in the quad.

#15
Shuidizi

Shuidizi
  • Members
  • 78 messages
Saren lost hope.
TIM is over-arrogant and over-confident in his beliefs.

That's where I don't agree with them, I see indoctrination would affect their minds, but I get the impression without it they would reach similar conclusions, indoctrination just assured their loyalty stronger.

Overall I believe in destroy option both from in game perspective and from real life perspectives, that things should progress naturally without some super-order to impose and interfere with our development. That's why I cannot stand Reapers and their logic AT ALL.

Modifié par Shuidizi, 09 janvier 2014 - 01:34 .


#16
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17 275 messages

StreetMagic wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

You're overthinking this, IMO. It's a lot simpler. Big squids started annihilating "us". Whatever their reasoning or motivations - they came here to make sure we cease to exist. I don't care about the moral or philosophical implications - they want me dead = I want them dead. Whoever is left alive in the end wins.


I like this human. He understands.

It's no different than a schoolyard brawl. This stuff isn't that deep. Kick them in the quad.


Why people try to dig deeper into this is beyond me.

#17
David7204

David7204
  • Members
  • 15 187 messages
It's so funny to see people demand supposedly complex villains and then resort to this at the first sign of trouble.

#18
MrMrPendragon

MrMrPendragon
  • Members
  • 1 445 messages
If you're on the verge of annihilation, you don't ask why you're in that situation, you just fight.

Vigil says it best:
"Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them..."

They want to kill you - so defend yourself.

#19
Dilandau3000

Dilandau3000
  • Members
  • 2 489 messages

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...

Vigil says it best:
"Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them..."

That was a ridiculous line. Understanding them can help in stopping them. Quite a lot, actually.

Then again, Vigil was prothean, and going by Javik that kind of attitude is expected. Image IPB

#20
MrMrPendragon

MrMrPendragon
  • Members
  • 1 445 messages

Dilandau3000 wrote...

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...

Vigil says it best:
"Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them..."

That was a ridiculous line. Understanding them can help in stopping them. Quite a lot, actually.

Then again, Vigil was prothean, and going by Javik that kind of attitude is expected. Image IPB


Actually, they didn't need to undestand the Reaper's motivations - at the time of the war - to stop them.

They only needed to build their superweapon - the Crucible - , and activate it. Killing reapers along the way.

In Leviathan, the game explains the history of the Reapers. But that knowledge just remained exactly that - knowledge. There was no application of that knowledge that could've helped the war effort.

Except for new found allies (the Leviathans), the history lesson was nothing more than a "did you know" scenario.

#21
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 376 messages
OP, they are not objectively wrong about anything except using the Reapers for their goals, goals which also were handed to them from the Reapers (indirectly then directly once we meet them for the final times).

That's the catch.

The Reapers appear to just.. own the galaxy. Ascension? Reapers own it, and they do it in ugly ways. Peaceful and co-operative society? It's a lie by the Reapers before they Reap. Even to a point all of our wars and fighting and competition is a factor at least contained by the Reapers (for now).

It's not that these concepts are wrong. Flesh and machine? Heh, it could be done, and possibly in a great way. Safeguarding the galaxy? That could DEFINITELY be done in the MEU so far. Competition to spur more 'natural' growth? Totally!

But there's something in the way of that. The 'apex'. At first it was just the Reapers, but we could probably put the Leviathans there now too.

Their apex rules suck/sucked. It's a personal idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if 'tribute' to the Leviathans was essentially blood sacrifice. They 'care for' their crops, then eat them like livestock, akin to the Reapers tending the field, then committing the Harvest. Could be wrong.

Anyway, apex = suckage. They're not true apex, they're angels of death (Reapers) and demons ('Leviathan' is often used in exchange for 'Satan' or something similar).

We can make our own 'apex', and it'll be together without the Reapers, or those Old God demons.

That's the problem... so far.. in Mass Effect. For now.

I've said what I think are Bioware's intentions. We had our Red trilogy (despite how many people were Paragon), and we're going to go on to Blue and Green.

Just because things are not as viable options, or that what lurks behind them is currently evil entities, DOESN'T mean that the themes behind them are bad.

IMO much of ME2-ME3 was to show that Control/Blue/etc can be used for good. It CAN.
And ME3 has optional content to at least introduce the idea that Peace/Transcendence/Green can be used for good. It CAN.

It's just that eh, maybe you should be a little careful?
1)When the Reapers hand you the options, take previous lessons about them in mind.
2)Understand that MASS EFFECT IS NOT OVER. It's ONLY Shepard's trilogy that is. Jeez, they never even said the Reapers are done! They only said that the next story will not relate to Shepard's events/'Incident'. Well duh, I'd sure hope not in a new story with a new protagonist.

Plenty of time to show how even 'Synthesis'/Green is good. I think people take the ending of ME3 as more conclusive than it may be.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 09 janvier 2014 - 02:00 .


#22
ImaginaryMatter

ImaginaryMatter
  • Members
  • 4 163 messages
When Vigil always said his line about stopping the Reapers not understanding them, I always assumed he meant that preventing the opening of the Citadel Relay wasn't dependent or helped by knowing the Reaper's motives.

#23
MrMrPendragon

MrMrPendragon
  • Members
  • 1 445 messages

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

When Vigil always said his line about stopping the Reapers not understanding them, I always assumed he meant that preventing the opening of the Citadel Relay wasn't dependent or helped by knowing the Reaper's motives.


Well yeah that's what he meant - preventing the opening of the Citadel relay - because it was still ME1. We barely have an idea on what the reapers are at this point.

But the quote can apply to this situation as well.

#24
MACharlie1

MACharlie1
  • Members
  • 3 437 messages
Is submission not preferable to extinction?

They bloody echoed this EXACT line in ME3 and still pushed Synthesis as the best choice...

#25
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 376 messages

MACharlie1 wrote...

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

They bloody echoed this EXACT line in ME3 and still pushed Synthesis as the best choice...


Best?

Because Catalyst said so?

Because it was a bright light in the middle?

Because it requires (2nd) most EMS?

I think it was a dev or someone who might have said 'best' though, on Twitter, so I'm really just playing. ^_^