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Genetic Indoctrination


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#1
liggy002

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  Hello, ladies and gents, what I will discuss today is an interpretation of the ending that has been brewing in my mind for some time.  As the thread title says, I call it "Genetic Indoctrination" or G.I. for short.  What is G.I.?  Well, here are a few highlights for you to chew on before I delve into the concept:

1. As many believe, the I.T. was disproven by the Extended Cut by simple virtue of the ending slides.  These slides, as many will say, disprove the I.T. by demonstrating that the ending was the real thing and was not taking place in Shepard's mind (as the primary I.T. interpretation will tell you). The I.T. camp, on the other hand will say that these slides were also in Shepard's mind.  As the I.T. opposers would claim, they are just "grasping at straws."  That being said, G.I. does not require the ending slides to be in Shepard's mind.  In point of fact, the G.I. will say that they are very real.

2. As supported by the above point, the E.C. does not conflict with the concept of the G.I. as far as I am concerned.

3. The Reapers are not the "good" guys in the land of G.I.  As Anderson says, "we destroy them or they destroy us."  However, in this case, they both destroy us and we destroy ourselves.  More on that later. 

4. In G.I., depending on which ending was chosen the player, the Reapers have attained a more advanced form of indoctrination that is meant only to benefit themselves and not the galaxy as the literal interpretation would have the player believe.

5. The Crucible is not what it seems despite what the Catalyst claims in G.I.



OK, so let's get on with it.  What is G.I.?  To explain G.I., I will start by listing each ending choice (including Refuse) and then describe what the Reapers hope to obtain with each choice.



Synthesis Image IPB:

  We all know that indoctrinated subjects are able to resist the influence of the Reapers (at least for a certain amount of time) before submitting to their influence.  Also, all indoctrinated subjects will outlive their usefulness when their minds eventually turn to putty.  These subjects eventually lose the ability to reason and think.  They become some sort of husk and eventually die of starvation as Virgil would tell you on Ilos.  This is an inconvenience for the Reapers (especially when you consider that it takes time to indoctrinate subjects due to a subject's resistance of the effect).  Additionally, it would be far more efficient and convenient were the Reapers able to indoctrinate everyone at once on a massive scale.  But, how could they accomplish such a thing?  That's where G.I. comes into play.

Using the Crucible and a suitable genetic host (I'm looking at you Shepard), the Reapers would have the essential ingredient for their green beam of "happy magic."  This would actually have the effect of indoctrinating the galaxy at a "genetic" level.  Essentially, everyone would be subservient to the Reapers without raising any conscious objections.  The conscious mind and by extension, any form of choice would be bypassed in favor of massive brainwashing at the subconscious level.  No one would make a choice because the choice would already be made for them.  This is similar to the idea that psychopaths and sociopaths did not make the choice to be crazy, they were simply born that way.  Indoctrination would be ingrained in the "genome" of its subjects.  As a result, any offspring produced would also be slaves to the Reapers.  They would simply be born as indoctrinated subjects with no choice involved.  It is just what they are.  Think of Achilles saying he had no choice to fight in the movie "Troy."   He states: "I chose nothing.  I was born and this is what I am."

  Notice that this is the only choice (other than Refuse) in which both the Catalyst and the Reapers remain.  This way, they can still continue to supervise their brainwashed slaves.  Also, as some added perks, their subjects will not rapidly die out (since there is no mental resistance to indoctrination and therefore no mental deterioration).  It's the perfect situation for the Reapers.  The Reapers likely wouldn't risk a galaxy wide coupe by not brainwashing their subjects.  The Reapers leak the plans for the Crucible after modifying it themselves.  It serves it's main purpose here: it is a massive, galaxy wide "genetic indoctrination" device.  The slides show us the massive indoctrination but give us the perception of a false utopia.


Control:

  This happens exactly as we see it in the ending slides.  This option was likely added on to the Crucible by either TIM, a control supporting faction of the past, or both.  Shepard displaces the Catalyst and "controls" the Reapers.  However, we are treading in dangerously deep water here.  We must ask ourselves "What are the long term implications of control by the A.I. Shepard?"  Even if Shepard manages to maintain control of the Reapers, what of the galactic forces that eventually manage to destroy Shepard's fleet?  Shepard will need to rebuild, will he not?  He will need materials to do this.  What if he discovers that the only way to replenish his numbers is to melt down humans in order to create Reapers as the Collectors before him did?  Sure, he could use machines to create the Reapers, but what if that is not good enough to create a strong, versatile Reaper?

  In this case, we destroy ourselves by eventually becoming the Catalyst and indoctrinating ourselves.  Perhaps the Catalyst believes that if you can see the galaxy from his point of view, you will eventually become just like him and think like he does.  Be careful what you wish for.


Destroy:

  According to G.I., this is the best option here.  We destroy the Reapers but unfortunately must also sacrifice our synthetic allies in the process.  As far as chaos returning by means of the machine devils, that is up for debate and could be a serious side effect of this choice.


Refuse:

As seen, we are wiped out if we refuse the options of the Crucible.  This is because you have refused the options programmed into the Catalyst and leave it no choice but to continue the cycle.  Perhaps it will find another victim that will hopefully choose "Synthesis."  G.I. also states that the Catalyst purposely reprogrammed itself:  in order to appear genuine, it had to include "Destroy" as an option.  The Catalyst, with the aid of the Reapers, designed the Crucible which would in turn contain the code that would modify it to offer the choices of synthesis and control, at the cost of potential self destruction.


The Leviathans ?:

This is still a bit unclear but it seems that they may have been the architects behind this whole scheme.  They allowed the Catalyst to wipe out most of them so that they could ascend and become both more powerful and immortal.   Ultimately, they desired subservient thralls.  As Keanu Reeves would state, however, "the problem is choice." How do you eliminate choice?  Synthesis, which is a means to genetic indoctrination.


This, of course, is only meant to be my interpretation of the ending events (one of them at least) and is not meant to be fact.  Undoubtedly, I will come under fire for this.  I do ask, however, that everyone try to be civil and argue in a mature manner.  That said, I'm sure that wont happen anyway.  Image IPB

Modifié par liggy002, 09 janvier 2014 - 02:04 .


#2
AlanC9

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I'll just ask my standard question. What problem has this interpretation been created to solve? You seem to be making up a bunch of stuff for no particular reason.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 janvier 2014 - 03:32 .


#3
liggy002

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AlanC9 wrote...

I'll just ask my standard question. What problem has this interpretation been created to solve? You seem to be making up a bunch of stuff for no particular reason.



It's just one of the ways that I make sense of the ending.  It's not specifically saying that there is a problem with the ending.  The Reapers just strike me as insidious and it makes sense to me, true or not.

Modifié par liggy002, 09 janvier 2014 - 03:43 .


#4
enayasoul

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Very interesting... Thanks for sharing. :)

#5
OdanUrr

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It is interesting that you have come up with yet another interpretation where Destroy is the only "right" choice. I only wish I could have seen that coming.

#6
AlanC9

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Shocking, isn't it?

It's a little late to be thinking of this, but we ought to have some catchall term for all of the "theories" which have no real purpose except to promote Destroy. They all get lumped together under the IT banner, but that's not really the point of them.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 janvier 2014 - 04:51 .


#7
AlexMBrennan

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That being said, G.I. does not require the ending slides to be in Shepard's mind. In point of fact, the G.I. will say that they are very real
[...]
Essentially, everyone would be subservient to the Reapers without raising any conscious objection
[...]
The slides show us the massive indoctrination but give us the perception of a false utopia.

Do you think we're too stupid to notice the contradiction here?

Simply put, if you arbitrarily dismiss part of the game (e.g. the ending) as not real (dream, indoctrination, whatever) then your idea falls under Indoctrination Theory and is equally without merit - why stop there? Why not claim that everything after the beacon on Eden Prime was a hallucination?

This way, they can still continue to supervise their brainwashed slaves. Also, as some added perks, their subjects will not rapidly die out

If the Reapers motive is controlling a large population of slaves, then what is the ultimate goal? And if they want slaves, then why did they just exterminate everyone in the last thousand cycles?

Basically, you're saying that the Reaper's master plan was "Hope that your prey builds a device that will mind-control them (and all their offspring via genetics)"... really?

Even if Shepard manages to maintain control of the Reapers, what of the galactic forces that eventually manage to destroy Shepard's fleet?

Sorry, what? At what point did Shepard's fleet (presumably you are talking about the Reapers here?) get destroyed in the Control ending?

He will need materials to do this. What if he discovers that the only way to replenish his numbers is to melt down humans in order to create Reapers as the Collectors before him did? Sure, he could use machines to create the Reapers, but what if that is not good enough to create a strong, versatile Reaper?

What does that have to do with indoctrination, genetic or otherwise? The idea is that putting a single entity (AI or human) in charge of all the galaxy's military power could be bad is hardly new.

As far as chaos returning by means of the machine devils, that is up for debate and could be a serious side effect of this choice.

Hang on, what exactly is the Reapers' motive in your "G.I. theory"? Why aren't "machine devils" a problem in synthesis when the only goal was enslaving us humans (presumably it wouldn't work on aliens since it's based on a human "suitable genetic host")?

They allowed the Catalyst to wipe out most of them so that they could ascend and become both more powerful and immortal.

So, you are saying that the one Leviathan we meet is lying about the fact that the Reapers turned on them? What's wrong with the canonical interpretation (Leviathan accidentally made synthetic servants that ended up being able to overpower them... you know, just like the quarians did with the geth?)

As Keanu Reeves would state

You seem to be confusing real life with fiction - the quote is said by Neo in the fictional Matrix trilogy.
Regardless, since when is Neo (or, perhaps whoever wrote his dialogue) an authority on this kind of philosophy?

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 09 janvier 2014 - 05:10 .


#8
AlanC9

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Thanks, Alex. Someone had to engage with this stuff, I guess.

#9
teh DRUMPf!!

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AlexMBrennan wrote...

Why not claim that everything after the beacon on Eden Prime was a hallucination?



lol... cute pic. ^.^

As to the OP... it feels like a post that warrants my Antonio Banderas reaction .gif.

But that would imply I actually read it.

#10
liggy002

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[quote]AlexMBrennan wrote...

[quote]That being said, G.I. does not require the ending slides to be in Shepard's mind. In point of fact, the G.I. will say that they are very real
[...]
Essentially, everyone would be subservient to the Reapers without raising any conscious objection
[...]
The slides show us the massive indoctrination but give us the perception of a false utopia.[/quote]
Do you think we're too stupid to notice the contradiction here?

Simply put, if you arbitrarily dismiss part of the game (e.g. the ending) as not real (dream, indoctrination, whatever) then your idea falls under Indoctrination Theory and is equally without merit - why stop there? Why not claim that everything after the beacon on Eden Prime was a hallucination?





[quote]This way, they can still continue to supervise their brainwashed slaves. Also, as some added perks, their subjects will not rapidly die out [/quote]
If the Reapers motive is controlling a large population of slaves, then what is the ultimate goal? And if they want slaves, then why did they just exterminate everyone in the last thousand cycles?

Basically, you're saying that the Reaper's master plan was "Hope that your prey builds a device that will mind-control them (and all their offspring via genetics)"... really?





[quote]Even if Shepard manages to maintain control of the Reapers, what of the galactic forces that eventually manage to destroy Shepard's fleet?[/quote]
Sorry, what? At what point did Shepard's fleet (presumably you are talking about the Reapers here?) get destroyed in the Control ending?





[quote]He will need materials to do this. What if he discovers that the only way to replenish his numbers is to melt down humans in order to create Reapers as the Collectors before him did? Sure, he could use machines to create the Reapers, but what if that is not good enough to create a strong, versatile Reaper?[/quote]
What does that have to do with indoctrination, genetic or otherwise? The idea is that putting a single entity (AI or human) in charge of all the galaxy's military power could be bad is hardly new.





[quote]As far as chaos returning by means of the machine devils, that is up for debate and could be a serious side effect of this choice.[/quote]
Hang on, what exactly is the Reapers' motive in your "G.I. theory"? Why aren't "machine devils" a problem in synthesis when the only goal was enslaving us humans (presumably it wouldn't work on aliens since it's based on a human "suitable genetic host")?





[quote]They allowed the Catalyst to wipe out most of them so that they could ascend and become both more powerful and immortal.[/quote]
So, you are saying that the one Leviathan we meet is lying about the fact that the Reapers turned on them? What's wrong with the canonical interpretation (Leviathan accidentally made synthetic servants that ended up being able to overpower them... you know, just like the quarians did with the geth?)





[quote]As Keanu Reeves would state[/quote]
You seem to be confusing real life with fiction - the quote is said by Neo in the fictional Matrix trilogy.
Regardless, since when is Neo (or, perhaps whoever wrote his dialogue) an authority on this kind of philosophy? [/quote]

[quote]
Do you think we're too stupid to notice the contradiction here?

Simply put, if you arbitrarily dismiss part of the game (e.g. the ending) as not real (dream, indoctrination, whatever) then your idea falls under Indoctrination Theory and is equally without merit - why stop there? Why not claim that everything after the beacon on Eden Prime was a hallucination?
[/quote]


No, I never intended to trick anybody.  I'm not dismissing the ending but I am instead "thinking outside of the box."  The ending is not being dismissed in this scenario.  It is simply being expanded upon.  How are we to know the future or what is possible?  Why do you find it so hard to believe that the Reapers could be duplicitous?  As I very clearly recall, the trilogy was highly focused on Reaper indoctrination and manipulation.  They manipulated both TIM and Saren to accomplish their ends.


[quote]
If the Reapers motive is controlling a large population of slaves, then what is the ultimate goal? And if they want slaves, then why did they just exterminate everyone in the last thousand cycles?

Basically, you're saying that the Reaper's master plan was "Hope that your prey builds a device that will mind-control them (and all their offspring via genetics)"... really?
[/quote]

 The ultimate goal is that of the Leviathans.  The Reapers (in league with the Leviathans), intend to enslave the galaxy.  They want all of the races of the galaxy to serve as their thralls and they want any objections to be either minimized or not existent.  This way, they will make better slaves.  But, what might be the purpose of enslaving everyone you ask?

It's quite simple really.  Work would be done for you instead of you having to do it yourself.  This would make life easier for the Leviathans. And, with the Reapers as their weapon, they would be the undisputed kings of the galaxy.  Tribute would flow the races and would further feed their egos.  They want the races of the galaxy to love them but this love is one sided and not genuine.

Why exterminate everyone?  This is because they could not find a viable solution for synthesis until Shepard came along.  When the races of the galaxy became advanced enough, the Reapers knew they would eventually be a threat to their fleet.  And since they had not yet found a viable solution for synthesis (in light of failures such as the Xha Til), the Reapers had to destroy them to avoid their own destruction.  Also, consider all of the technology that the Reapers could harvest from a given advanced civilization to further enhance their own fleet.  By wiping out the galaxy and effectively hitting the reset button, a new civilization with new ideas that the Reapers could exploit would eventually develop.  With enough technology harvested from many civilizations, the Reapers would eventually grow into a formidable and diverse force.

  Even if their ultimate synthesis plan worked, the Reapers would need a formidable force as a failsafe.  It makes sense, then, to destroy the races of the galaxy time and time again until the right time and the right subject approached.  Harbinger itself even admired humans for their genetic strength.  This is the perfect ingredient for synthesis.

[quote]
Hang on, what exactly is the Reapers' motive in your "G.I. theory"? Why aren't "machine devils" a problem in synthesis when the only goal was enslaving us humans (presumably it wouldn't work on aliens since it's based on a human "suitable genetic host")? 
[/quote]

   The Reaper's ultimate motive is to enslave everyone for reasons I have mentioned above.  Well, I never said that the machine devils were not a problem.  Tribute cannot flow from a dead race and how can one have tribute if machines exterminate your subjects.  Synthesis also has the side effect of eliminating the threat of the machines, though it is not the ultimate goal in G.I.  As a result, the Reapers do not eliminate the machines out of the goodness of their hearts but preserving a species technology and their genome does have a purpose where their ultimate goal is concerned.


[quote]
So, you are saying that the one Leviathan we meet is lying about the fact that the Reapers turned on them? What's wrong with the canonical interpretation (Leviathan accidentally made synthetic servants that ended up being able to overpower them... you know, just like the quarians did with the geth?)
[/quote]

  Yes, the Leviathan is lying.  Also notice how it shifts its eyes down when you ask it about the crucible.  This is a known sign of lying though it does not conclusively prove anything.  Still, I wouldn't be too keen to trust the Leviathan - especially since it attempts to keep Shepard on the ocean planet as a slave.  I'm not keen on the canon interpretation of the ending because I believe it is an overused trope in science fiction (synthetics killing organics).  Also, I wasn't all that excited to find out that the Reapers were ultimately controlled by an A.I.  I was hoping for something more complex or Lovecraftian in nature.  I'm not saying that the ending is outright bad or that there is even anything wrong with it.  I just don't like it personally when it is taken literally.

  Also, the idea that the Leviathans were stupid enough to make an A.I. that overthrew after observing organics and synthetics war makes them look like absolute idiots.  The Leviathan, to me, do not seem that stupid.  G.I. gives their intelligence more credit (and, as an extension, the Reapers as well).


[quote]
You seem to be confusing real life with fiction - the quote is said by Neo in the fictional Matrix trilogy.
Regardless, since when is Neo (or, perhaps whoever wrote his dialogue) an authority on this kind of philosophy?
[/quote]

  No, I just chose to call him "Keanu Reeves."  I know that Neo spoke the quote.  Well, I don't claim that he is any kind of authority on the philosophy mentioned.  It just fits with the elements of G.I. and I mentioned it to draw a parallel.

  I might ask you the same, what makes Bioware an authority on their philosophies?  Sure, it's their story and what they write is canon but that doesn't mean that their interpretation necessarily makes the most sense.  Just as they are capable of making great games, they are capable of making mistakes and even releasing bad games.  ME3 was not a bad game overall but the ending never sat right with me.

Modifié par liggy002, 10 janvier 2014 - 03:17 .


#11
liggy002

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OdanUrr wrote...

It is interesting that you have come up with yet another interpretation where Destroy is the only "right" choice. I only wish I could have seen that coming.


Yes, imagine that, a perspective that claims the Reapers actually tricked and took advantage of organics.  I find it more ludicrous that someone would suggest that either synthesis or control are the correct choices, but that's me.  Anyways, it's only natural for someone to come along and poke holes in an interpretation. 

Modifié par liggy002, 10 janvier 2014 - 03:15 .


#12
Remix-General Aetius

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it's easy to poke holes at complete **bleep**. it's hilarious how suddenly now ANYONE thinks they can come up with an IT, as long as it makes sense in their own pea brain.

Modifié par BioWareMod05, 10 janvier 2014 - 03:56 .


#13
MegaSovereign

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What the hell.

#14
liggy002

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Insulting others because they have a different view of the end game events is symptomatic of a pea brain.

#15
AlanC9

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BioWareMod05 wrote...

it's easy to poke holes at complete **bleep**. it's hilarious how suddenly now ANYONE thinks they can come up with an IT, as long as it makes sense in their own pea brain.


That's not fair. I think liggy's version of IT is every bit as good as the standard one.

Edit...... wow, that quote turned out weird. How'd I get the wrong name in the quote?

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 janvier 2014 - 04:15 .


#16
AlanC9

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As for the topic, I just find it hard to see how these interpretations have any integrity. liggy doesn't like the idea that the Catalyst is telling the truth, and therefore will go to any lengths to find an interpretation where he isn't telling the truth. At least he's being relatively honest about the process, unlike standard IT where we're supposed to swallow that they're not trying to force the interpretation down any particular path.

#17
Remix-General Aetius

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liggy002 wrote...

Insulting others because they have a different view of the end game events is symptomatic of a pea brain.


no not others, just you. I'm familiar with your "idea" history so it was a very educated opinion based on facts n "numbers".

AlanC9 wrote...

Edit...... wow, that quote turned out weird. How'd I get the wrong name in the quote?


lmao evidently the word "sheet" is considered profanity now. sheet of paper. will wonders never cease? Einstein mods.

Modifié par TheGarden2010, 10 janvier 2014 - 04:38 .


#18
Possessed Turian

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Liggy a lot of these guys just like to hate on what they don't understand you shouldn't explain yourself to them. These guys don't care to listen, if it is not their way its wrong.

#19
teh DRUMPf!!

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TheGarden2010 wrote...

lmao evidently the word "sheet" is considered profanity now. sheet of paper. will wonders never cease? Einstein mods.


bots gonna bot.

#20
AlexMBrennan

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Why exterminate everyone? This is because they could not find a viable solution for synthesis until Shepard came along. When the races of the galaxy became advanced enough, the Reapers knew they would eventually be a threat to their fleet. And since they had not yet found a viable solution for synthesis

What was wrong with the Collectors? Or the Keepers? Or even your average husks? Clearly there are alternatives to the ideal solution but the Reapers never bothered.

By wiping out the galaxy and effectively hitting the reset button, a new civilization with new ideas that the Reapers could exploit would eventually develop. With enough technology harvested from many civilizations, the Reapers would eventually grow into a formidable and diverse force.

So, primitive species can make more progress than the apex species despite having to waste time and effort re-discovering things like, say, fire and writing each time before they can start making interesting discoveries. That's just not how things work.

#21
AlanC9

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Possessed Turian wrote...

Liggy a lot of these guys just like to hate on what they don't understand you shouldn't explain yourself to them. These guys don't care to listen, if it is not their way its wrong.


Oh, we listen. Alex is paying more attention to liggy's theory than anyone.

#22
Remix-General Aetius

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Possessed Turian wrote...

Liggy a lot of these guys just like to hate on what they don't understand you shouldn't explain yourself to them. These guys don't care to listen, if it is not their way its wrong.


yeah because making up stupid theories about the ending of a game like it's the only thing in the world that matters is so productive huh?

picture that comes to mind "........basement.......dark.........called Reapers...........overwhelmed........nothing better to do..........T.A.T.U.........yes I lost my mind.........." eh you get the gist of it.