493 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

So, I see a lot of criticism of the Crucible as a DEM. Here's my take on why I find the Crucible a perfectly reasonable solution to the Reapers.

The invasion at the end of a Reaper cycle can take decades (centuries?). Any cycle strong enough to resist would have time to study and research their enemy, the Reapers, far more than we have. So it makes perfect sense that they would come up with, at the very least, plans for a theoretical tactic, maybe even a "super-weapon", to defeat the Reapers based on their knowledge.

There have been at least 700 cycles before the Protheans. If any of those cycle's data caches survived into the next cycle, as the Protheans' did into our cycle, subsequent cycles could have found their plans, and used and improved upon them based on their own research.

As this process repeated itself, 700+ cycles later, we in the current cycle could plausibly recover a set of those plans that can be used successfully against the Reapers.

In fact, there may be several plans for other weapons lost to other cycles still waiting to be discovered in hidden data caches. Maybe that could be part of the ME4 plot.

Modifié par Obadiah, 09 janvier 2014 - 05:47 .

[MrMrPendragon]

It does. I never classified as DEM.

Shepard NEEDS a superweapon to defeat the Reapers. In fact, the whole allied forces were just one big diversion. The Crucible is their ace.

[CosmicGnosis]

I like the idea of the Crucible. I just wish that we had learned more about it so that it wouldn't seem so convenient.

[DeinonSlayer]

If the previous cycles (per Vigil) consisted of the Reapers knocking out the head of galactic governance and crippling transport and communication across the entire galaxy in a single blow by switching off the relay network, how would any of those hundreds of suddenly-isolated star systems even know an attack had taken place, let alone the nature of their attackers? For all they'd know, their own relay was the only one that failed, isolating them completely... until one day decades or centuries later when it re-opens to admit the portion of the Reaper armada tasked to their liquidation. Not the best environment for research, let alone a research project spanning multiple cycles. Are we assuming that every cycle invents quantum entanglement communication or something akin to Prothean beacons?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 janvier 2014 - 06:06 .

[JamesFaith]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Are we assuming that every cycle invents quantum entanglement communication or something akin to Prothean beacons?

Well, it's logical to assume that previous cycles tried to invent their own communication means independent on relays. Reason is simple - not every system had one and these "isolated" systems surely need some way how to communicate with each others. 

[CosmicGnosis]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

If the previous cycles (per Vigil) consisted of the Reapers knocking out the head of galactic governance and crippling transport and communication across the entire galaxy in a single blow by switching off the relay network, how would any of those hundreds of suddenly-isolated star systems even know an attack had taken place, let alone the nature of their attackers? For all they'd know, their own relay was the only one that failed... until one day decades or centuries later when it re-opens to admit the portion of the Reaper armada tasked to their liquidation. Not the best environment for research, let alone a research project spanning multiple cycles. Are we assuming that every cycle invents quantum entanglement communication or something akin to Prothean beacons?

There is no way of knowing what happened so many cycles ago. It's possible that there have been previous "errors" in the cycle like the Ilos research facility that enabled significant resistance against the Reapers. The Crucible appears to be the culmination of all the "errors in the system". It finally convinces the Catalyst that its cycle just isn't going to work anymore. That's why Refuse is viable at all. Even if Shepard gives up now, a future cycle breaks the system anyway.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 09 janvier 2014 - 06:20 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Ehh... maybe (I don't think it's a DEM [Deus Ex Machina?], just an poorly implemented plot device). It does seem unlikely that, apparently, each cycle only discovers the device right as the Reapers arrive, since if they discovered it before hand it probably would have detailed information about the Reapers. Also, Vigil states the Reapers attack on the Citadel cuts transport and communication off and instantly destroys any centralized leadership; the current cycle seemed to struggle with constructing the Crucible with these intact (speaking of Vigil you think he would have said something about it, or the Thessia beacon, or something else).

Also, if the cycles develop along the lines the Reapers desire them to, how come the technology of the Crucible is so unknown to the current cycle? Furthermore, the Catalyst speculates that the designs have improved over the cycles which brings up the question how were those cycles able to do so, then bury them so they would only be found just as the Reapers invaded again. Also, if the Protheans attempted to create one during their cycle and almost succeed before being sabotaged by Indoctrinated agents, you think word would have gotten back to the Reapers about it, so the Catalyst would know that the plans were not lost.

There may be a perfectly sensible reason for why the Crucible managed to get built with super advance technology, only to be discovered conveniently right when the Reapers invade; but that reason isn't in ME3. Finally, why won't the Catalyst tell us anything specific about it, like its tech or who made it?

[Axdinosaurx]

The invasion in ME3 makes no sense, their whole game plan is to jump through the citadel relay topple the government and take control of the relay network to isolate everyone from each other. Even though Shepard stopped Sovereign, it made no sense for them not to jump from Batarian space straight to the citadel and capture it anyways. The citadel fleet could barely stop 1 reaper, let alone 20 capital ships attacking.

Not even beginning to talk about the magic super weapon that just fell in their lap conveniently as the reapers arrive. They previous cycles would have had no way to incorporate the citadel into the plans with it being captured immediately on the reapers return through the citadel relay. Not to mention they wouldn't have had a way to build it with the relay network gone. No one system would have had the resources necessary to construct it. Without the relays it would have taken decades to even get the resources to the system where it was being built.

Modifié par Axdinosaurx, 11 janvier 2014 - 04:41 .

[FlamingBoy]

The crucible is the height of stupidity within the plot and is a large part of whats wrong with mass effect 3, I could spend hours writing about how the thing does not make sense but below I have written 3 examples that jump to the top of my head on its sheer stupidity and disrespect to the audience intelligence by bioware.


A weapon created by beings not specified used to defeat the reapers, how it works or even its basic function is not explained in any capacity. Its not even explained within the lore of mass effect universe, it is ignored.

During its construction the builders decided to not only make the weapon with a single function but three totally different functions because I guess the builders wanted the swiss army knives of superweapons. I mean there are so many questions such as, Why would the creators do this?

However according to the game no one race actually built the crucible but it was built in pieces which no race had any clue with what the first race intended. Its like building a magazine of a gun then giving it to cavemen and asking them to build a barrel, bullets, sliding mechanism. Even with the "plans" they could not do it. You can't build a wheel with out context of how the wheel was built.

[DeinonSlayer]

@FlamingBoy
But... but... all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again! History repeating! The Cycle cannot be broken, and all that jazz! It is not a thing you can comprehend!

Come on. I know you want to jump in the giggity beam.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@FlamingBoy
But... but... all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again! History repeating! The Cycle cannot be broken, and all that jazz! It is not a thing you can comprehend!

Come on. I know you want to jump in the giggity beam.

[wolfhowwl]

Something like the Crucible could have made sense, unfortunately there are a ludicrous amount of self-inflicted injuries to that plot in ME3.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 09 janvier 2014 - 06:47 .

[Excella Gionne]

The Crucible was a fine addition and it made sense but having the entire ME3 based on the crucible itself hurt the game. But everyone was betting their life and the entire galaxy on that sole machine to work. And Lol, Refusal Shepard disappoints everyone.

[AlexMBrennan]

Two problems: firstly, the simple fact that we just find blueprints for an anti-reaper doomsday weapon after the reapers have overrun Earth and when we have no hope of victory makes it a deus ex machina - what was the point in blowing up the Arrival relay when we can just as easily wait until after the reapers have arrived and still win?

Secondly, I'd question that you can iteratively develop some kind of super weapon without anyone at any point having any idea how it works - which is how it is presented in ME3.

[David7204]

The Crucible is a horrible idea that never should have made it into the game.

It really doesn't matter how 'sense' is makes within the universe if it's existence is narratively contrived and thematically void. And that's really the worst part. The part never addressed on the BSN except by me. Being thematically void is the real problem that no amount of prettying it up will solve. It's a magic button to solve the conflict that has absolutely no other meaning or merit.

It's introduction is stupid. It's execution is stupid. It's role in the lore is stupid. It's entire concept is stupid.

It's a disgrace.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 09:05 .

[Farangbaa]

David7204 wrote...

The Crucible is a horrible idea that never should have made it into the game.

It really doesn't matter how 'sense' is makes within the universe if it's existence is narratively contrived and thematically void. And that's really the worst part. The part never addressed on the BSN except by me. Being thematically void is the real problem that no amount of prettying it up will solve. It's a magic button to solve the conflict that has absolutely no other meaning or merit.

It's introduction is stupid. It's execution is stupid. It's role in the lore is stupid. It's entire concept is stupid.

It's a disgrace.

I love you, David. But this post is stupid.

From ME1 on it was absolutely impossible to defeat the Reapers unless:

a) you somehow manage to stop them from coming at all
 

Where point would be the Crucible

That the Reapers somehow start dying in ME3 is an ME3 thing. In ME1 and ME2 it was absolutely impossible. (aside from that Derelict Reaper... which is also kinda )

Modifié par Psychevore, 09 janvier 2014 - 09:39 .

[David7204]

Thank you making it absurdly clear that your support of the Crucible is a product of compromise, not a product of any actual merit.

It's absolutely possible.

[Zazzerka]

That the Reapers somehow start dying in ME3 is an ME3 thing. In ME1 and ME2 it was absolutely impossible.

In ME1 it was absolutely impossible.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=ek0jwelBEfKgPM&tbnid=TSUm84MpK0jCtM&ved=0CAUQjBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fiam.uic.edu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F11%2Ftumblr_ma57v5KTWT1r9g4gho1_4001.jpg&ei=OW_OUsqHLYr4lAX_64Bo&psig=AFQjCNEMOyiyvH188Mq-mXzUzGAzuDsT_g&ust=1389347001787130

[Rusty Sandusky]

The Crucible is not a Deus Ex Machina, it's a MacGuffin. The Catalyst is the DEM.

[David7204]

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

[Zazzerka]

Can someone learn me the difference between a DEM and a MacGuffin? Like 'Mary Sue' the BSN has twisted my understanding of them.

[Rusty Sandusky]

Zazzerka wrote...

Can someone learn me the difference between a DEM and a MacGuffin? Like 'Mary Sue' the BSN has twisted my understanding of them.

A MacGuffin is a plot device that the protagonist is working towards while a DEM is a plot device that appears near the end of a story to help things make sense.

[David7204]

A MacGuffin is an element of the story that is important and drives the plot, but whose characteristics aren't actually important. Treasure is a good example of a MacGuffin. Everybody wants it in adventure stories, the plot involves trying to get it, but it doesn't actually do anything. You could replace the treasure with something else highly desirable, and the plot would still function.

Contrary to what the BSN might have you think, it's not a negative term.

A DEM is an unforeshadowed and implausble element that solves an otherwise unsolveable problem. You have to be very careful of how you define 'unsolveable problem.' The Catalyst is not a DEM. Depending on how wide your definition is, the Crucible may well be. 

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 09:53 .

[Zazzerka]

..and a Mary Sue is any female character that you aren't fond of. Thanks. Gotcha.

[Farangbaa]

David7204 wrote...

Thank you making it absurdly clear that your support of the Crucible is a product of compromise, not a product of any actual merit.

It's absolutely possible.

How would you have ended the story then, David? 

You would've reasoned the Reapers to death, I presume.