493 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

It took three Alliance fleets at full strength to destory one Reaper, ignoring the impact that Shepard had by killing Possessed Saren.


One Reaper

ONE

And you think you can take them all on?

[CronoDragoon]

von uber wrote...

Er... isn't evidence from the game kind of the best evidence? How is 4 ships firing ina  pre-rendered cutscene which shows the Quarian fleet firing a graphical limitation given that in the same game we see the entire allied fleet firing during the final space battle?

Why would all the fleet not fire when they are commanded to do so? If your answer is to avoid hurting Shepard then this is unsupported with in-game dialogue as far as I can remember.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 janvier 2014 - 10:02 .

[David7204]

I think I'm about done here. It's very clear there are no legitimate objections to my proposal.

[von uber]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Why would all the fleet not fire when they are commanded to do so? If your answer is to avoid hurting Shepard then this is unsupported with in-game dialogue as far as I can remember.

No idea. maybe because they don't need to as it is already established that the firepower of four dreadnoughts can kill a Reaper? Either way, the game shows that they don't all fire.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I've answered both of those question, Dreamgazer. Are you having difficulty understand the post where I explictly said it's likely happened in previous cycles?

Yes. you said that.  You still haven't explained why the Reapers weren't defeated in those cycles. 

All you really seem to have is some notion that superior firepower is pointless against the Reapers.

Accurate, given the fact that other cycles were on about the same technological and firepower wavelength as this cycle when the Reapers invaded.  What you've failed to explain, in many small ways that build to one significant point, is what makes this cycle different.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

[quote]von uber wrote...

[quote]MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...


Where is your real evidence beyond cut scene and graphic animation limitation?

[/quote]

Er... isn't evidence from the game kind of the best evidence? How is 4 ships firing ina  pre-rendered cutscene which shows the Quarian fleet firing a graphical limitation given that in the same game we see the entire allied fleet firing during the final space battle?
That makes no sense. You can't have it both ways, either believe in what the game shows and argue from there, or don't and just make stuff up.
[/quote]

Because there is statements in the game that contradict this completely. Yes, there are more than 4 ships firing on the Reaper at Rannoch. One cutscene doesn't change all of that. 

If cutscenes changed that, what happened to the Turian fighters attacking the Reaper on Tuchanka when they attack a second time, right as you're nearing the base of the Reaper? They disappear, never to be seen again. Or the cruiser at the beginning of the game, where you can watch it and the Reaper shoot at each other indefinitely until reach the checkmark for the cutscene? Or having the turrets in ME2 on Horizon shoot at the Collector ship while you take down the Praetorian. That fight can last for a while. Or the ships firing at the Geth dreadnought. We don't see them all firing. Are we to assume that those ships are inexplicably ignoring orders to fire?

You're putting a lot of faith in that one cutscene (especially considering an inconsistent showing of capabilities in cutscenes) for your argument. And you're discarding the possibility of them simply not adding any more images of the Quarian ships firing. 

For what it is worth, incidentally, I agree with Hackett. We can't win conventionally. He should know this kind of thing.


[/quote]

[themikefest]

Steelcan wrote...

It took three Alliance fleets at full strength to destory one Reaper, ignoring the impact that Shepard had by killing Possessed Saren.


One Reaper

ONE

And you think you can take them all on?

The funny thing about that is they have no commom sense to fly behind the reaper and fire at it, but instead fire at the front of the reaper taking losses.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I think I'm about done here. It's very clear there are no legitimate objections to my proposal.

Except the ones you haven't answered, sport.  

"Because BOOM-BOOM on the unaware Reapers" doesn't work!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

I think I'm about done here. It's very clear there are no legitimate objections to my proposal.

Are you really that full of yourself to completely deny that your idea is inconsistent and implausible with given lore in the game?

It's very clear to us that you aren't worth being reasoned with, since you refuse to play by any rules that don't favor you.

[Almostfaceman]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'd like to wrap this up. Dreamgazer, do you have any more questions for me to answer?

Nope, just the ones you didn't properly address, namely why this hasn't happened in previous comparably-advanced cycles and why the "defenders" aren't responding once attacked.

A very plausible explanation for previous cycles is how they were sneak attacked through the Citadel - a very devastating "cutting off the head of the serpent" attack which doesn't occur in Shep's cycle because he prevents it. 

IF this kind of attack lets the Reapers shut down the relays and isolate their prey, this could explain why only a few Reapers are getting picked off (if any) and why tremendously large fleets aren't brought to bear against them. 

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I've answered both of those question, Dreamgazer. Are you having difficulty understand the post where I explictly said it's likely happened in previous cycles?

Yes. you said that.  You still haven't explained why the Reapers weren't defeated in those cycles. 

Because, Dreamgazer, it's not a magic wand. It's one battle. It's several Reapers gone. It's not the galaxy. And it takes the fleets of two species to accomplish. Do you imagine this would be applicable to every Reaper? Imagine the fleet is able to constantly do this with no losses or interruptions? Imagine the Reapers wouldn't counterattack if and when they could?

And of course, I've again decided to very generously ignore the Reapers having control of the relays in previous cycles and thus having much, much more freedom to concentrate their force. There's also that. 

Not a magic wand, Dreamgazer.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 10:11 .

[CronoDragoon]

David7204 wrote...
Because, Dreamgazer, it's not a magic wand. It's one battle. It's several Reapers gone. It's not the galaxy. And it takes the fleets of two species to accomplish. Do you imagine this would be applicable to every Reaper? Imagine the fleet is able to constantly do this with no losses or interruptions? Imagine the Reapers wouldn't counterattack if and when they could?

So like I said, in what way is it plausible to extrapolate conventional victory of the war from this one battle? Sounds like people who already point to the Miracle at Palaven as evidence of conventional victory.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 janvier 2014 - 10:13 .

[TheMyron]

Steelcan wrote...

It took three Alliance fleets at full strength to destory one Reaper, ignoring the impact that Shepard had by killing Possessed Saren.


One Reaper

ONE

And you think you can take them all on?

Everyone seems to forget that Sovereign was accompanied by a massive Geth fleet and that it was responsible for the destruction of the all-powerful Turian fleet. Plus if you choose to save the Destiny Ascension, the Geth knock out more of the alliance fleets than Sovereign does.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Almostfaceman wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'd like to wrap this up. Dreamgazer, do you have any more questions for me to answer?

Nope, just the ones you didn't properly address, namely why this hasn't happened in previous comparably-advanced cycles and why the "defenders" aren't responding once attacked.

A very plausible explanation for previous cycles is how they were sneak attacked through the Citadel - a very devastating "cutting off the head of the serpent" attack which doesn't occur in Shep's cycle because he prevents it. 

IF this kind of attack lets the Reapers shut down the relays and isolate their prey, this could explain why only a few Reapers are getting picked off (if any) and why tremendously large fleets aren't brought to bear against them. 

Nevermind the fact that the Reapers have their own tremendously large fleet of Reaper Dreadnoughts (that are bigger than nearly every other ship in existence) that is nearly half the size of the Quarian Migrant Fleet on their own. Not counting Destroyers either. 

The Reapers have us completely outgunned, outnumbered, and outclassed in technology. And they've been building their forces for millions of years. And they can afford to throw all their resources into building more Reapers. Organic races can't. They have other things to worry about. And they're never as advanced as the Reapers. The entire galaxy can throw its weight against the Reapers, and you'd get nothing back but a dead galaxy and a few dead Reapers.

[von uber]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

You're putting a lot of faith in that one cutscene (especially considering an inconsistent showing of capabilities in cutscenes) for your argument. And you're discarding the possibility of them simply not adding any more images of the Quarian ships firing. 

Because that is what Bioware chose to show. But yes, there is the possability that more were firing, I admit that. But based on the only visual representation we have, they don't.
You are also correct about inconsistancies through the game, but that's a whole other can of worms isn't it!

[David7204]

An ideal rewrite would feature quite a bit of changes to the Battle of the Citadel. But as I've said plenty of times, nothing to significantly diminish the power of the Reaper or boost the galaxy. The threat would be just as dire. 

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 10:16 .

[CronoDragoon]

Wait you're talking about rewriting the entire series, not just ME3?

[David7204]

That would be necessary to make things absolutely ideal, yes. Is there some reason not to?

[Steelcan]

@The Myron,

But Sovereign was locked in the Citadel alone, if the Alliance saves the Ascension they kill them all off that way. Otherwise I assume the Citadel Fleets managed to win, just with much heavier casualties.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Wait you're talking about rewriting the entire series, not just ME3?

It sure would have helped if there was an actual structure to the trilogy, wouldn't it?

[Obadiah]

David7204 wrote...

I think I'm about done here. It's very clear there are no legitimate objections to my proposal.

I think the biggest argument against the tactic you have described is, even if it succeeded once, why would the Reapers allow it to succeed twice? If the Geth and Quarian show themsleves as a threat, a dangerous threat, the Reapers might just stop Reaping for a while and go a murder spree against those civilizations.

It is the same reason Hackett didn't want to use the fleet until necessary, because once revealed, the Reapers would track down the fleet threat and destroy it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think I'm about done here. It's very clear there are no legitimate objections to my proposal.

Except the ones you haven't answered, sport.  

"Because BOOM-BOOM on the unaware Reapers" doesn't work!

Can you imagine the Reapers in this scenario?

Reaper Tom: Oh Catalyst, Bill, the Organics just killed Moe. What do we do?

Reaper Bill: Maybe, if we just stand completely still and close our eyes maybe they won't see us.

RT: They just got Larry! Why don't we shoot at them?

RB: Stick to the plan! Stick to the plan! If we shoot at them we'll give away our position.

RT: They already see us!

RB: Hold on, I'm calling up big C...

RT: *ka-bloom*

RB: I'm the only one left! Maybe, if I surrender. Holding one's arms up seems to be the universal Organic sign for giving up.

Quarian Helmsman: Sir, the last Reaper is finally readying it's weapons. It's waving it's, uh, tentacles.

Quarian Commander: That's strange you think they would have done that half an hour ago. Oh well, shoot it down.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

An ideal rewrite would feature quite a bit of changes to the Battle of the Citadel. But as I've said plenty of times, nothing to significantly diminish the power of the Reaper or boost the galaxy. The threat would be just as dire. 

An ideal rewrite would feature a lot more planning for the trilogy, better implementation and preparation for the Crucible (introduced at an earlier time), the change of the SM mechanic to the Priority: Earth mission (with forced deaths or at least Virmire choices for the SM), and the ending rewrite. And that's just a little bit of it. 

[David7204]

Space is fairly big. Lots of places to hide.

[David7204]

Any other objections, Dreamgazer? This spam is quite tedious.