493 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Any other objections, Dreamgazer? This spam is quite tedious.

I know. Why did you keep spamming headcanon?

[jamesp81]

Almostfaceman wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I'd like to wrap this up. Dreamgazer, do you have any more questions for me to answer?

Nope, just the ones you didn't properly address, namely why this hasn't happened in previous comparably-advanced cycles and why the "defenders" aren't responding once attacked.

A very plausible explanation for previous cycles is how they were sneak attacked through the Citadel - a very devastating "cutting off the head of the serpent" attack which doesn't occur in Shep's cycle because he prevents it. 

IF this kind of attack lets the Reapers shut down the relays and isolate their prey, this could explain why only a few Reapers are getting picked off (if any) and why tremendously large fleets aren't brought to bear against them. 

I've long thought that the Reapers should've been written as beatable by conventional means but they never lost because of the whole Citadel + indoctrination trap.  Their usual modus operandi being that they take out leadership in the first wave at the Citadel, shut down the relays, and use indoctrinated agents to destroy their enemies from the inside out.

This had so much potential.  With ME1 preventing the initial Reaper attack through the Citadel and Arrival buying the galaxy some time, the Allies can still move, fight, and coordinate, but write in to the story a huge number of government and military officials betraying their own people to the Reapers due to indoctrination.  A good model for this would be the various reports you get in game about civilian officials on reaper occupied worlds speaking on behalf of and cooperating with the Reapers.  Make that more widespread.

The story would've been made in such a way that conventional victory was not impossible, just impossible to coordinate in most cycles...except this one.  Then winning the war is dependent on player actions.  it's more interactive as a story (good since this is a game about choices), and makes a lot more sense than a giant space-magic death beam with three color settings.

Modifié par jamesp81, 09 janvier 2014 - 10:27 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Any other objections, Dreamgazer? This spam is quite tedious.

Because, Dreamgazer, it's not a magic wand. It's one battle. It's several Reapers gone. It's not the galaxy. And it takes the fleets of two species to accomplish. Do you imagine this would be applicable to every Reaper? Imagine the fleet is able to constantly do this with no losses or interruptions? Imagine the Reapers wouldn't counterattack if and when they could? 

Nope, not after this. You've still got a lot of work to do to make your assertion valid. 

[David7204]

Perhaps you should speak to CronoDragoon. He seems to be under the impression that it's a more-or-less worthless tactic. You seem to be under the impression it's an guaranteed win tactic. Perhaps the two of you can come to a happy compromise?

[Almostfaceman]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Nevermind the fact that the Reapers have their own tremendously large fleet of Reaper Dreadnoughts (that are bigger than nearly every other ship in existence) that is nearly half the size of the Quarian Migrant Fleet on their own. Not counting Destroyers either. 

The Reapers have us completely outgunned, outnumbered, and outclassed in technology. And they've been building their forces for millions of years. And they can afford to throw all their resources into building more Reapers. Organic races can't. They have other things to worry about. And they're never as advanced as the Reapers. The entire galaxy can throw its weight against the Reapers, and you'd get nothing back but a dead galaxy and a few dead Reapers.

Still, in ME1 the organics are given a heads up that they're in a mouse-trap. Plausible scenarios could have been written so that a "conventional" defeat of the Reapers was achieved. I can think of several that could have been used in ME3 instead of the Crucibal, including but not limited to sabotaging the Mass Relay system so that they destroy Reapers trying to use them, drawing the Reapers into planned super-nova induced systems, planting false information to dupe the Reapers into attacking systems that don't exist - all "conventional" and somewhat guerilla tactics to whittle down the enemy until advantage can be achieved and none of them requiring a magical super-weapon. I hoped for and expected to see stuff like that when I played ME3 for the first time and the teamwork and intelligence of the organics (the Protheans and the current cycle) working together would have made for a much more interesting story to me than the space magic. 

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 09 janvier 2014 - 10:32 .

[Almostfaceman]

jamesp81 wrote...

I've long thought that the Reapers should've been written as beatable by conventional means but they never lost because of the whole Citadel + indoctrination trap.  Their usual modus operandi being that they take out leadership in the first wave at the Citadel, shut down the relays, and use indoctrinated agents to destroy their enemies from the inside out.

This had so much potential.  With ME1 preventing the initial Reaper attack through the Citadel and Arrival buying the galaxy some time, the Allies can still move, fight, and coordinate, but write in to the story a huge number of government and military officials betraying their own people to the Reapers due to indoctrination.  A good model for this would be the various reports you get in game about civilian officials on reaper occupied worlds speaking on behalf of and cooperating with the Reapers.  Make that more widespread.

The story would've been made in such a way that conventional victory was not impossible, just impossible to coordinate in most cycles...except this one.  Then winning the war is dependent on player actions.  it's more interactive as a story (good since this is a game about choices), and makes a lot more sense than a giant space-magic death beam with three color settings.

Yes, this would have been much more interesting to me, I love a good underdog story and that's what Shep's gotten himself into. 

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Perhaps you should speak to CronoDragoon. He seems to be under the impression that it's a more-or-less worthless tactic. You seem to be under the impression it's an guaranteed win tactic. Perhaps the two of you can come to a happy compromise?

Or you could address both sides of our concerns with further elaboration on your sneak-'n-bomb tactics.

Seems like we both have the same issues, actually: plausibility and effectiveness. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

David7204 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I can think of several that could have been used in ME3 instead of the Crucibal, including but not limited to sabotaging the Mass Relay system so that they destroy Reapers trying to use them, drawing the Reapers into planned super-nova induced systems, planting false information to dupe the Reapers into attacking systems that don't exist - all "conventional" and somewhat guerilla tactics to whittle down the enemy until advantage can be achieved and none of them requiring a magical super-weapon. I hoped for and expected to see stuff like that when I played ME3 for the first time and the teamwork and intelligence of the organics (the Protheans and the current cycle) working together would have made for a much more interesting story to me than the space magic. 

These ideas are really stupid.

David why don't you walk to the nearest mirror and look at it. There's a man there, he needs to hear these exact words.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 09 janvier 2014 - 10:37 .

[Obadiah]

David7204 wrote...

Space is fairly big. Lots of places to hide.

Indoctrinated agents. Reapers cutting supply lines. Once the fleet attacks and the Reapers have some knowlegde of the ships that are employed against them they can start finding ports of safe barbor and checking them. These fleets cannot exist in isolation, they will give themselves away. Hell, the Reapers could just make a favorable target that the fleet goes after then pounce once the fleet attacks (like in Jedi), or just burn all allies (Serenity).

The only way I could see this idea working is if the Council Fleet managed to fool the Reapers into believing the Reapers had destroyed all the attackers while suffering heavy losses.

[Steelcan]

How about we get the largest group of the bravest soldiers we can find, fearless, bold, courageous, etc...

Then while the Reapers slaughter them we all run away and come up with a plan to freeze Shepard and Javik.

[Invisible Man]

I guess I have a few things to add here.

if you remember in me1 (and likely revisited in later games), before the current galactic cycle, the reapers had always had the fight in the bag by the time they invaded during the previous cycles, their tactic of taking the citadel by surprise, shutting down the mass relays, and destroying the bulk of their opponent's spacefaring forces & governing body all at once, that is how they had achieved military dominance. we don't know if this was even required given the strength of their military force, though why take the risk of dropping the ball through overconfidence.

second, fighting the reapers using a tactic involving holding them at chokepoints wouldn't work. the reapers are faster (though not more maneuverable) than the currently available military assets of the various factions, pack more firepower, and have more potent shielding systems. in space you wouldn't be able to contain access the way a military ground force could hold a mountain pass, so you wouldn't be able to overwhelm the vanguard forces with overwhelming firepower because you can't really block their movement effectively. if you tried this on the ground the reapers would simply be able to bypass you, or take shots from orbit.

now, when I was playing this for the first time (me3 I'm referring to), I figured the crucible was an electronic warfare system. basically, you coopt the reaper signal, and use the relay system to pump a boatload of energy into the signal itself, and as a result you blowout the reaper's receivers, which would either have to connect to the nervous system or brain (seeing as the signal seems to control the reapers completely), blowing out the receiver shorts out the nervous system, or the brain or both of any reaper that is connected to the signal... and you've got a lot of dead or crippled reapers.
though the technical stuff is outside my skillset, that's what I was thinking, that is until we got our actual ending.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

dreamgazer wrote...



Accurate, given the fact that other cycles were on about the same technological and firepower wavelength as this cycle when the Reapers invaded.  What you've failed to explain, in many small ways that build to one significant point, is what makes this cycle different.

Not only that the Protheans were actually a bit ahead and much more heavily armed than the current galactic standard.

And they were still crushed.

[Steelcan]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...



Accurate, given the fact that other cycles were on about the same technological and firepower wavelength as this cycle when the Reapers invaded.  What you've failed to explain, in many small ways that build to one significant point, is what makes this cycle different.

Not only that the Protheans were actually a bit ahead and much more heavily armed than the current galactic standard.

And they were still crushed.

They managed to keep the best one of them all alive, I call that a victory

[David7204]

Obadiah wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Space is fairly big. Lots of places to hide.

Indoctrinated agents. Reapers cutting supply lines. Once the fleet attacks and the Reapers have some knowlegde of the ships that are employed against them they can start finding ports of safe barbor and checking them. These fleets cannot exist in isolation, they will give themselves away. Hell, the Reapers could just make a favorable target that the fleet goes after then pounce once the fleet attacks (like in Jedi), or just burn all allies (Serenity).

The only way I could see this idea working is if the Council Fleet managed to fool the Reapers into believing the Reapers had destroyed all the attackers while suffering heavy losses.

The 'idea' is neither advertised nor meant to win the war. A trap would be possible, yeah, but then again so would a counter-trap. And a counter-counter-trap, and so on and so forth. The fleets could always simply sit and wait or send scouts or dones to sit and wait for a few hours, bouncing signals around and making sure no Reapers are in reasonable range. Wouldn't be 100% effective, but like I said, it's not meant to win the war.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Steelcan wrote...


They managed to keep the best one of them all alive, I call that a victory

It is far better than any of the previous cycles (And believe me God Tier Javik is one of my favorites) but the plan was to freeze enough people to restart their empire and spend thousands of years rearming.

Partial credit.

[Linkenski]

I also like the idea of the Crucible. It is just presented in a very banal way. Until its "ambiguous function" is revealed.

Modifié par Linkenski, 09 janvier 2014 - 11:00 .

[David7204]

See, it's funny, isn't it? On this forum, there have been oh-so-many countless, desperate solutions to defeat the Reapers. The magic nukes. The magic EMPs. The Cerberus Reaper-control technology. The klendagon guns. The 'blow up the mass relays' idea. The 'Council has decided to build a million dreadnoughts.' Goes on and on.

And of course, they're all stupid, contrived, narratively ridiculous.

And here I am with the ideal of all of that. A magic idea to defeat to defeat the Reapers that isn't actually magic. Isn't that funny, Dreamgazer? All these people desperately posted for months to come up with something not total trash, and I beat them all in five minutes without even trying. I come along with their wet dream on a silver platter.

It's like I said, Dreamgazer. If these scene were in the game, a fair chunk of the BSN would just be shrieking it's lungs out that conventional victory is easy, easy, easy. It looks like you would be a part of that.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 11:02 .

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

See, it's funny, isn't it? On this forum, there have been oh-so-many countless, desperate solutions to defeat the Reapers. The magic nukes. The magic EMPs. The Cerberus Reaper-control technology. The klendagon guns. The 'blow up the mass relays' idea. The 'Council has decided to build a million dreadnoughts.' Goes on and on.

And of course, they're all stupid, contrived, narratively ridiculous.

And here I am with the ideal of all of that. A magic idea to defeat to defeat the Reapers that isn't actually magic. Isn't that funny, Dreamgazer? All these people desperately posted for months to come up with something not total trash, and I beat them all in five minutes without even trying. I come along with their wet dream on a silver platter.

Your idea just wouldn't work

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David7204 wrote...

See, it's funny, isn't it? On this forum, there have been oh-so-many countless, desperate solutions to defeat the Reapers. The magic nukes. The magic EMPs. The Cerberus Reaper-control technology. The klendagon guns. The 'blow up the mass relays' idea. The 'Council has decided to build a million dreadnoughts.' Goes on and on.

And of course, they're all stupid, contrived, narratively ridiculous.

And here I am with the ideal of all of that. A magic idea to defeat to defeat the Reapers that isn't actually magic. Isn't that funny, Dreamgazer? All these people desperately posted for months to come up with something not total trash, and I beat them all in five minutes without even trying. I come along with their wet dream on a silver platter.

David when you post these things are you actively sucking yourself or do you save it for after you post?

[Linkenski]

David7204 wrote...

See, it's funny, isn't it? On this forum, there have been oh-so-many countless, desperate solutions to defeat the Reapers. The magic nukes. The magic EMPs. The Cerberus Reaper-control technology. The klendagon guns. The 'blow up the mass relays' idea. The 'Council has decided to build a million dreadnoughts.' Goes on and on.

And of course, they're all stupid, contrived, narratively ridiculous.

And here I am with the ideal of all of that. A magic idea to defeat to defeat the Reapers that isn't actually magic. Isn't that funny, Dreamgazer? All these people desperately posted for months to come up with something not total trash, and I beat them all in five minutes without even trying. I come along with their wet dream on a silver platter.

It's like I said, Dreamgazer. If these scene were in the game, a fair chunk of the BSN would just be shrieking it's lungs out that conventional victory is easy, easy, easy.

Your head is way too big.

I don't really have a problem with your idea to be honest. Any of the made-up BSN ideas sound plausible IMO if they'd somehow be explained and presented properly in the narrative which they obviously didn't.

If you didn't present your idea with the "self-proclaimed genious-attitude" on top of it I think more people would start listening to your wits, because to me you just sound very arrogant.

Modifié par Linkenski, 09 janvier 2014 - 11:06 .

[ruggly]

ruggly wrote...

I regret clicking on this

[David7204]

Don't look at me. I didn't say this was a guaranteed-win tactic. Dreamgazer did. People have hoped and prayed for the easy, easy, easy, and here it is in the flesh. The instant-win tactic you've always dreamed of. Just hop the fleets from relay to relay and kill whatever Reapers you find there.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 11:07 .

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

Don't look at me. I didn't say this was a guaranteed-win tactic. Dreamgazer did. People have hoped and prayed for the easy, easy, easy, and here it is in the flesh.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

David7204 wrote...

Don't look at me. I didn't say this was a guaranteed-win tactic. Dreamgazer did. People have hoped and prayed for the easy, easy, easy, and here it is in the flesh.

So you are sucking yourself while you post!

That explains everything!