493 réponses à ce sujet

[Rusty Sandusky]

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

Now that I think about it, the Catalyst in name is the MacGuffin while Starbrat is the Deus Ex Machina.

EDIT: I'm not using MacGuffin in a negative term, David.

Modifié par ThisOnesUsername, 09 janvier 2014 - 09:55 .

[David7204]

Very simple. Conventional victory only revealed as a real possibility at the very end, and only at the end of a 'perfect' or near perfect playthrough. A nonconventional victory otherwise used for non-perfect playthoughs.

In other words, the conventional and nonconventional solutions would be developed together throughout ME 3. At the end, it would be revealed that the nonconventional solution has some sort of serious price or drawback. Thus the player has motivation to choose conventional victory, which would generally lead to a 'perfect' ending.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 09:58 .

[David7204]

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

Now that I think about it, the Catalyst in name is the MacGuffin while Starbrat is the Deus Ex Machina.

Neither are a DEM.

[Rusty Sandusky]

David7204 wrote...

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

Now that I think about it, the Catalyst in name is the MacGuffin while Starbrat is the Deus Ex Machina.

Neither are a DEM.

Really? It meets the criteria. A new character introduced in the final scene to dump exposition and try to explain why the Reapers were attacking and how the Crucible works. Seems like a DEM to me.

[David7204]

First of all, being an 'Infodump' has nothing to do with being a DEM. I'm not sure why you're even bringing that up.

Secondly, the introduction of the Catalyst didn't solve any problems. It only introduced them. Before, players had the impression the Crucible was going to go off, kill the Reapers, and everything would be rainbows and sunshine. All the introduction of the Catalyst does is bring in new problems, not solve any old ones.

And please, let's not say "The Crucible didn't turn on and the situation was hopeless." It doesn't work that way. Never did the player expect the Crucible would be worthless after the entire narrative was spent talking it up.

[Rusty Sandusky]

Alrighty then, how about this definition?

noun: deus ex machina
1.
an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

Just before the scene with the Catalyst, Shepard was badly injured and passes out, seeing as they were the only one on the Citadel able to activate it at the time, it seems here that the situation is hopeless and that they've lost. But suddenly, the platform rises up to a room with Starbrat in it where he allows you to make one of three choices that save a hopeless situation and allow you to defeat the Reapers. Not to mention that it is also a literal Deus ex Machina, a god within a machine (The Citadel).

[Han Shot First]

I think Bioware had the right idea with the introduction of a superweapon. It was just poorly executed.

The function of the Crucible doesn't make a lick of sense, and having scientists and engineers build a device whose function was completely unknown until activated is ridiculous. How can you build something if you don't understand it?

[David7204]

As I said, the situation is never narratively hopeless. The player does not expect the Crucible to be a useless dud just because it doesn't immediately activate.

[NeonFlux117]

Nope. It does not make sense within the established lore of the series.

And it's of reaper origin and plan.

How?

It is unversal tech than has been passed down from cycle to cycle. Readable and usable by every cycle.....


Gee kinda like, but not limited too:

Citadel-Reaper tech
Mass Relays-Reaper tech
Mass Effect technology-Reaper origin.

Or not.... And we should just ignore the lore and swallow the Maccguffin that is the Crucible and the Deus Ex machina that is the Catalyst.

If that's cool. Then.....

So. Be. It.

[Farangbaa]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Nope. It does not make sense within the established lore of the series.

And it's of reaper origin and plan.

How?

It is unversal tech than has been passed down from cycle to cycle. Readable and usable by every cycle.....


Gee kinda like, but not limited too:

Citadel-Reaper tech
Mass Relays-Reaper tech
Mass Effect technology-Reaper origin.

Or not.... And we should just ignore the lore and swallow the Maccguffin that is the Crucible and the Deus Ex machina that is the Catalyst.

If that's cool. Then.....

So. Be. It.

Gee.. could it be that it is readable by every cycle because the laws of physics are the same in every cycle?

[NeonFlux117]

Psychevore wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Nope. It does not make sense within the established lore of the series.

And it's of reaper origin and plan.

How?

It is unversal tech than has been passed down from cycle to cycle. Readable and usable by every cycle.....


Gee kinda like, but not limited too:

Citadel-Reaper tech
Mass Relays-Reaper tech
Mass Effect technology-Reaper origin.

Or not.... And we should just ignore the lore and swallow the Maccguffin that is the Crucible and the Deus Ex machina that is the Catalyst.

If that's cool. Then.....

So. Be. It.

Gee.. could it be that it is readable by every cycle because the laws of physics are the same in every cycle?

Sure. 

You evolve along the paths we desire.... 


Yes, yes "physics"... Cause the reapers don't bend the powers of the universe- Space, AKA phsycis... "That ship just did a turn that would shear all our ships in half"-Joker Virmire circa 2183. Nor do they bend time... Harbinger is billions if not trillions of years old.... 

But.... I'm sure it's just physics, lol. 

[Kurremurre]

alleyd wrote...

In your OPINION. This is my Opinion.

Dismissing someone's argument as mere opinion is useless. A plot device has to meet certain criteria to be a DEM, and so what matters is whether it meets those criteria, not someone's opinion. For example, the appearance of King Louis XIV at the end of Tartuffe is a DEM whether you think so or not.

Definition from Wikipedia

Deus ex machina from Latin, meaning "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended

A) to move the story forward when the writer has "painted themself into a corner" and sees no other way out,

to surprise the audience,

C) to bring the tale to a "happy" ending,

D) or as a comedic device.

I split the definitions to show how there are several DEM's in the Crucible-Catalyst

The Crucible was introduced out of nowhere at a convenient point of the story where defeat seems inevitable and it is the driving force force of the story. It Moves the story forward and there is NO OTHER WAY OUT In the context of ME3 script- Hacket specifically states that  "Conventional victory is impossible" and that the only solution is the
sudden introduction of the Crucible. No foreshadowing in the previous lore and it is a device never explained or understood at any point.  This seems very close to Option A- 

The Catalyst was certainly a suprise to the audience. So that is part B covered

The Catalyst does bring a "happy ending",  Shepard has the chance to be a true God in the Machine [/b]and his/her sole choice decides the fate of the Galaxy. A Messiah moment. Also there is the Heroic Self Sacifice as well, a theme in stories for centuries, even forms the basis for many religious belief systems about God and the mechanism of human culture. So Option C is covered

And the Crucible/ Catalyst uses a variety of Comedic Devices So option D is covered[b]

You must be confused. Those are not definitions of a DEM, but functions of it. Something can be a surprise to the audience without being a DEM. Something can provide a happy ending without being a DEM. Your entire post is misguided.

Lastly, I omitted the second half of your post because it has nothing to do with anything.

[TTTX]

The Crucible would have made more sense if ME2 had been about finding this so called weapon and gives us more context.

The Crucible and Catalyst along with other things makes the ME trilogy look a bit well not as great as say the original Star Wars trilogy and Lord of the Rings.
The ME trilogy is more like the Matrix trilogy great at the beginning and middle, but at final makes one feel at the very least disappointed at the end.

Example: Matrix 1 and 2 we have only EMPs to fight the robots, Matrix 3 we have giant robot suits to fight the robots.

ME1 and 2 we get the feeling that we can defeat the Reapers if we stand united, ME3: nope we need to relie on this conveniently plot device in order to defeat the Reapers and at the end suddenly the big bad shows itself (even though there was nothing perior to suggest that the Reaper had a leader or even a master) and forces you to choose on his terms (choose or die there are no middle ground).

[The Night Mammoth]

It's not a bad idea, and yeah, the lore behind makes some internal sense, but it really needed fleshing out more. I like that it's the culmination of multiple cycles and its in keeping with the series running concept of finding hidden technology and information that's been passed down to us, but I don't think it's enough to just say all this lore and expect me to buy it. There are too many gaps, too many leaps, too many assumptions to make for it to work. How many cycles has been passed down from? How was conceived? How was it designed to work with the Relays and the Citadel when they're shut down and taken before most of the galaxy even knows the Reapers are attacking? Just how was it passed down through perhaps hundreds of cycles when systems couldn't even communicate with each other? Maybe those questions could be answered if it were a stronger and larger part of the narrative rather than just the maguffin. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 09 janvier 2014 - 11:58 .

[Farangbaa]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

Nope. It does not make sense within the established lore of the series.

And it's of reaper origin and plan.

How?

It is unversal tech than has been passed down from cycle to cycle. Readable and usable by every cycle.....


Gee kinda like, but not limited too:

Citadel-Reaper tech
Mass Relays-Reaper tech
Mass Effect technology-Reaper origin.

Or not.... And we should just ignore the lore and swallow the Maccguffin that is the Crucible and the Deus Ex machina that is the Catalyst.

If that's cool. Then.....

So. Be. It.

Gee.. could it be that it is readable by every cycle because the laws of physics are the same in every cycle?

Sure. 

You evolve along the paths we desire.... 


Yes, yes "physics"... Cause the reapers don't bend the powers of the universe- Space, AKA phsycis... "That ship just did a turn that would shear all our ships in half"-Joker Virmire circa 2183. Nor do they bend time... Harbinger is billions if not trillions of years old.... 

But.... I'm sure it's just physics, lol. 

Really? That's your answer?

Ok then.

[von uber]

Actually the are some similarities with lotr (the book, not the bastardised Peter Jackson version).

[TTTX]

von uber wrote...

Actually the are some similarities with lotr (the book, not the bastardised Peter Jackson version).

Could you please tell us what the similarities are?

Aside from the whole "ancient evil comes back to kill us all".

Modifié par TTTX, 09 janvier 2014 - 12:16 .

[Chashan]

von uber wrote...

Actually the are some similarities with lotr (the book, not the bastardised Peter Jackson version).

Lolnope. Good ol' Tolkien didn't consign the brave two halflings to the pyre, nor any one of the peoples of Middle-Earth because drama. The "end-game" as regards the Ring was fairly certain through-out as well.

Not to mention the expansive epilogue of the books, bringing the halflings' development into being capable of fixing their issues themselves full-circle.



As regards the topic at hand: No, the Crucible does_not_make sense. BW had every chance to lay out its capabilities well in advance of the finale, given that an entire galaxy worth of scientists was working away at it. Not doing so betrays a lack of forethought when it comes to integrating the thing, and the finale it is tied to into the game's plot.

[von uber]

Well for example, the fact defeat of sauron is not possible conventionally; there is the option of taking the ring and using it to win but then becoming the next dark Lord; though over-arching aim being the destruction of sauron until temptation at the end; subversive elements trying to disrupt the fight. Probably a lot more if I think but I'm supposed to be working right now. .

[Arcian]

The Crucible does not make sense. It never has and never will.

[TTTX]

von uber wrote...

Well for example, the fact defeat of sauron is not possible conventionally; there is the option of taking the ring and using it to win but then becoming the next dark Lord; though over-arching aim being the destruction of sauron until temptation at the end; subversive elements trying to disrupt the fight. Probably a lot more if I think but I'm supposed to be working right now. .

This similarty only applies to ME3 as before that the Reapers had no off switch until that game.
Sauron had his off switch from Book 1.

[wright1978]

Han Shot First wrote...

I think Bioware had the right idea with the introduction of a superweapon. It was just poorly executed.

The function of the Crucible doesn't make a lick of sense, and having scientists and engineers build a device whose function was completely unknown until activated is ridiculous. How can you build something if you don't understand it?

I can understnad the introduction of a superwaeapon as a means of overcoming the Reapers superiority.
However the execution was rather pitifull.

[OdanUrr]

@OP: Good thing I wrote this then:

http://social.biowar.../index/15131915