493 réponses à ce sujet

[NeroonWilliams]

David7204 wrote...

The Catalyst is absolutely not a DEM.

The Catalyst is not only a figurative deus ex machina, it is LITERALLY a "God out of the Machine".

I find no fault in this because from moment one of ME1, the Reapers were set up as an unstoppable enemy which would require a deus ex machina to defeat.

Anyone who expected otherwise either wasn't paying attention, or wasn't playing the same game I was.

[dreamgazer]

The Crucible changed the BSN. Created new possibilities.

The idea is fine. The execution's issues weren't, and could have easily been avoided.

Conventional victory over the Reapers, on the other hand, is the "height of stupidity" when it comes to the MEU and how it applies to ME3. For that to work, you'd have to go back to the very first game and make alterations.

[von uber]

TTTX wrote...
This similarty only applies to ME3 as before that the Reapers had no off switch until that game.
Sauron had his off switch from Book 1.

Oh of course. They probably would have been better off doing that though.

[ruggly]

It might make sense, doesn't mean that it wasn't done well.

[NeroonWilliams]

StreetMagic wrote...

I only like a conventional victory because it would be more fun. Instead of remaining in a fairly stationary position and making a straightforward "choice", conventional victory is more conducive to gaming. It's action based, it's possibly more eye catching, it's button mashing, it involves combat and puzzles and dramatic exits like "GET TO THE CHOPPA!" and "Yippie Kay Yay Mother****er!"

Conventional victory is outside the scope of the ME game mechanics.  Conventional victory means stronger forces > weaker forces.  Even Space Batman, your LI, and Space Jesus is not a greater force than 1000 Reaper capital ships.

ME has always been more or less equal parts RPG cinematics and 3 man squad TPS.  Depicting a conventional victory would require something like a RTS or an even more ridiculously long cinematic than we got of space battle in which we as players would have no agency.  Fnck that.

[NeonFlux117]

dreamgazer wrote...

The Crucible changed the BSN. Created new possibilities.

The idea is fine. The execution's issues weren't, and could have easily been avoided.

Conventional victory over the Reapers, on the other hand, is the "height of stupidity" when it comes to the MEU and how it applies to ME3. For that to work, you'd have to go back to the very first game and make alterations.

Ha. First couple sentences pure gold. And yes, in order for it to make sense and fit within the lore, you'd nee to go back To ME1 and change things, like the convo on Virmire with Sovereign, and even making the Reapers not really creating all the things (citadel, relays, mass effect tech...) that the cycle uses. If you were to take out those things, then a convential victory is entirely possible and a "crucible" device would make sense. 


But it would still be a Deus Ex machina ending if you still kept the catalyst. 

In short, BioWare wrote themselves into a dark, cold corner. 

I don't have a problem with a "I win button" or a "mirracle device" in order to stop the Reapers. And lets be honest. It took the entire citadel fleet and many alliance fleets to destory Sovereign. And that was ONLY AFTER, it's barriers were dropped by Shepard defeating Saren/sovereing minnion. 

According to ME2 lore, even a thanix cannon cannot pierece a Reapers Barriers. 

Howerver, like most things in ME3, the game contantly contradicts established lore. We see reapers being destroyed in the Battles of ME3 with thanix cannons.. Lulz. 

ME3 was a mess in terms of keeping up with the lore established in ME1, and ME2. This is mostly due to Drew K. not being the lead and Walters taking over, but I digress. 

ME3's narrative was a bit murky before the endings. 

Then the ending took it off the rails. Big time. 

Like you, I don't dislike the idea of the crucible. It's execution and finality was done and written in such a poor manner it's just a shame really. 

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 09 janvier 2014 - 01:48 .

[TTTX]

NeroonWilliams wrote...
The Catalyst is not only a figurative deus ex machina, it is LITERALLY a "God out of the Machine".

I find no fault in this because from moment one of ME1, the Reapers were set up as an unstoppable enemy which would require a deus ex machina to defeat.

Anyone who expected otherwise either wasn't paying attention, or wasn't playing the same game I was.

Blame the writers for giving us the hope that we could beat the old fashion way.

Mind you, the whole Reaper leader, having it living on the Citaldel and looking like the kid from the start, was a stupid idea from the beginning and created way more questions then answers (although some of them was answers others remain unanswered)

There is also the whole problem with the Reapers not taking the Citadel right the at beginning because the Citadel controls the Relays + it has a lot secrets and info of the other races so it makes sense that it should be the first target, but it isn't for no reason and then when they take it they don't turn of the relays something they have done countless times.

So you see there are more problems then the whole DEM ending.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

General opinion with everyone is the same:

The Crucible (or superweapon/macguffin) idea was an appropriate concept for the game, but it was terribly executed.

Conventional victory is just not possible.

Edit* I totally just now realized I wrote non-conventional victory isn't possible.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 janvier 2014 - 01:52 .

[NeonFlux117]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

General opinion with everyone is the same:

The Crucible (or superweapon/macguffin) idea was an appropriate concept for the game, but it was terribly executed.

Non-conventional victory is just not possible.

Yes. Absolutly. There is no way anything in the MEU could defeat the Reapers conventiionally. Maybe in Haloverse or Warhammer. But not in MEU. Even the Leviathan fell to them. 

The game was always going to hinge on some sort of "mirracle device" or sequence of mirracle plans. This was inevitable and it was fine and even hinted at during ME1. 

It's execution was so, so, so, so, bad. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Very simple. Conventional victory only revealed as a real possibility at the very end, and only at the end of a 'perfect' or near perfect playthrough. A nonconventional victory otherwise used for non-perfect playthoughs.

In other words, the conventional and nonconventional solutions would be developed together throughout ME 3. At the end, it would be revealed that the nonconventional solution has some sort of serious price or drawback. Thus the player has motivation to choose conventional victory, which would generally lead to a 'perfect' ending.

Still waiting on that conventional victory scenario of yours.

[von uber]

I suppose if the crucible was some massive EMP pulse type thing that specifically targeted reapers, and required the relay network as a transmission device that would be alright - so a bit similar to what we have but with less hand-waving, but allowing for the appropriate handwaving of how it works.
The problem is that then you'd need to make it clear you need the citdel form the off, which opens a whole new rfat of issues. Unless you use the war assets to be the citadel defence fleet.
Hmm.

[NeonFlux117]

The only way a "conventional" victory could be obtained is if you went to darkspace between harvest and nuked the reapers when they where sleeping or whatever.... But still. Even a dead reapers kinetic barriers are up- As evident as the derelict Reaper mission in ME2. I'm sure the reapers in their massive, hyper intelligence have thought of just this type of scenario. They probably have an entire fleet that patrols in shifts of 10,00 years or so for such an event/scenario.

I do not think you can defeat them without a super weapon and miracle scenario.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

One thing to make a conventional victory even possible is to stop taking things seriously and treating the story like a simulation of life. To make it work, you have to embrace a bit of childishness and fantasy. And have a love for blowing **** up (manually). Rule number 1 is stop even viewing the Reapers as real. To disengage a bit and simply have fun.

That cheapens the story. Very badly. I give the game the suspension of disbelief it deserves. I really can't say anything but that this is rather crappy advice to give to a fan, any fan of a series where they might be taking things 'too seriously'. This game doesn't (or didn't) start with a lot of childisness or fantasy beyond what was established into the lore from the very beginning. It progressively got more fantastical, and at times, even childish. And that wasn't how the game was established, and that is how the game ended up. That's not the same game, and it is ineffectual and inconsistent writing. I'm not here playing this game to disengage. I'm here to completely and totally immerse myself as much as I possibly can. That's the whole point of an RPG. The fun comes from that alone. To see the world in front of you as the reality you now inhabit for the time being. To detract from that at all is to kill the experience and engagement and 'fun' of playing in an RPG. So yeah, I think this statement is complete bullcrap.

[NeonFlux117]

StreetMagic wrote...

One thing to make a conventional victory even possible is to stop taking things seriously and treating the story like a simulation of life. To make it work, you have to embrace a bit of childishness and fantasy. And have a love for blowing **** up (manually). Rule number 1 is stop even viewing the Reapers as real. To disengage a bit and simply have fun.

Yeah, suspension of disbelief is needed in most every fiction, let alone scifi. But.... impossible is impossible. Even in the cheesyness of MEU scifi. 

The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally within the established lore of the series. 

Although, like I've pointed out... The Reapers in ME3 kinda suck and are whimps. This is shown in game well before the "ending" and culminating events of the crucible and catalyst conversation happens. 

The writers forgot some things about Reapers and stuff in ME3. 

But maybe that's what Mr. catalyst meant when it said- "you have hope. More than you know" 

[Iakus]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally within the established lore of the series. 

Even though the lore has all the consistency of a jello mold?

[Stalker]

To the OP:
It did make sense that an undefined number of cycles developed a solution to the Reaper problem, handed caches of data down to each other and improved upon them. It's not only realistic, but also has the right amount of cheesy heroic message. Reapers are clearly portrayed as relatively retarded and the 2 cycles we know of seem to have gotten pretty deep insight and rather good communication with each other. No reason to believe that the creation of the Crucible is impossible.

It was poorly implemented in the story and the actual technical functions are plain ridiculous, but the concept itself -as stated and defended in the OP- was actually believable. I even liked it, knowing that conventional victory would have been even more stupid.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 09 janvier 2014 - 02:28 .

[Iakus]

Zazzerka wrote...

..and a Mary Sue is any female character that you aren't fond of. Thanks. Gotcha.

Not exactly.  A Mary Sue is an annoyingly perfect character, often a self-insert of the author.  Such characters are amazingly smarter, more talented, more beautiful, etc than everyoe around them and any flaws they have are trivial quirks designed only to make them more endearing.  

[NeonFlux117]

iakus wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally within the established lore of the series. 

Even though the lore has all the consistency of a jello mold?

Sometimes, again you do need some suspesion of disbelief. Everything isn't going to be explaiend to you in the codex, lol. 

But the reapers seemed pretty cut in dry in ME1 and ME2. In fact, Shep and pals should be thanking Saren. Cause if Soverign, didn't have to devote considerable power to rezzing up brain dead Saren, then I highly doubt it's barriers would have dropped. And thus it would have destoryed the fleets. 

And that was just one Reaper....

[shodiswe]

The crusible, but especialy the end game could have been implemented in a more interesting way. It feelt fairly onedimentional.

[Iakus]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

iakus wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally within the established lore of the series. 

Even though the lore has all the consistency of a jello mold?

Sometimes, again you do need some suspesion of disbelief. Everything isn't going to be explaiend to you in the codex, lol. 

But the reapers seemed pretty cut in dry in ME1 and ME2. In fact, Shep and pals should be thanking Saren. Cause if Soverign, didn't have to devote considerable power to rezzing up brain dead Saren, then I highly doubt it's barriers would have dropped. And thus it would have destoryed the fleets. 

And that was just one Reaper....

And all those geth were just for show?