493 réponses à ce sujet

[Sion1138]

Yeah, except they didn't know what it was or what it does up until the very end.

No one person of all those who worked on it ever figured out what it's supposed to do.

So, devoting every possible resource to a thing you don't understand and the purpose of which is unclear makes sense?

Clearly this is a redefinition of the term "sense".

[NeonFlux117]

iakus wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

iakus wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally within the established lore of the series. 

Even though the lore has all the consistency of a jello mold?

Sometimes, again you do need some suspesion of disbelief. Everything isn't going to be explaiend to you in the codex, lol. 

But the reapers seemed pretty cut in dry in ME1 and ME2. In fact, Shep and pals should be thanking Saren. Cause if Soverign, didn't have to devote considerable power to rezzing up brain dead Saren, then I highly doubt it's barriers would have dropped. And thus it would have destoryed the fleets. 

And that was just one Reaper....

And all those geth were just for show?

Yeah, I know what you mean. But again the Geth fleet were an escort, not really a protective unit. There is a difference.

Sovereing was kicking the sh!t outta the fleets until... Shep made it drop it's barriers. 

And plus, the Geth were needed for the ground invasion of the citadel. But even then, they couldn't stop one determined N7 marine and his rifle .... And/or biotic combo's; Which ever you prefer... Lots of guns. Or lots of biotics. Both are good. 

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 09 janvier 2014 - 03:09 .

[jamesp81]

It doesn't technically fit the definition of a Deus Ex Machina. DEM would be if the plot involved trying to win a conventional war and, when that failed, the Crucible was brought in out of nowhere to solve the problem. It wasn't written this way, however, the Crucible was a plot element of the story and not a DEM.

That doesn't mean it makes sense or that it was a good plot element. Not being a DEM does not imply good writing.  In fact I think the Crucible was a horrible idea.

I think a better plot would've been to write the Reapers as powerful, but imply that their strategy required being able to to control the relays and use indoctrinated agents (ie, their numbers weren't quite enough to win a war of attrition in most cycles).

This would've made Arrival actually have more meaning.  It would also create a situation where the Allies could win by waging attritional warfare if the player achieved enough EMS.  An interesting story where victory was determined by player actions and not a MacGuffin.

Modifié par jamesp81, 09 janvier 2014 - 03:23 .

[Obadiah]

Just to address several points made in no particular order.

Discovery: There's really no other useful way to find a weapon like this other than in a data cache of a previous cycle near the beginning of or before the Reaper invasion starts. We could have found the plans in parts to make it more dramatic, and we sort of did since the Catalyst is the part that is missing until the end.

If we'd found the plans for the weapon any later we probably wouldn't be able to build it because this cycle would have already been so devastated. Convenient? Sure, on the 700+ cycle we happened to finally recover the plans in time, while still having the ability to construct the device.


Building without Understanding: There's no way around the idea that it is silly that we would expend the resources to actually build a weapon of the scale, when we didn't actually know how it works.

The only thing that makes sense to me for the story is that the Alliance builders understood enough of the Crucible to realize that thing would be incredibly useful. As in, "Here we can see the scale of this generator here would be useful in powering a weapon of sufficient power to destroy a Reaper in one blast, but we're not sure how this control here will affect the generator given the minute change in reaction. So we need this if we have any hope of winning..." etc.

Until the end where they just weren't sure how to direct the blast on a galaxy-wide scale.


Function: Why the Crucible functions the way it does (with Control, Destroy, and Synthesis) is left up in the air, but I have a couple of competing ideas on that:

a) The Crucible is built as a weapon for AI destruction, and the Catalyst appropriates it to 2 other functions. I think that just because I've always gotten the 3 options at the end, the Catalyst describes Destroy first, and Destroy is initiated by blowing some valve in the corner preventing the Crucible from firing.

b)The Control and Destroy functions build off the recurring conflict within each cycle to control or destroy the Reapers. I imagine that the controllers in some cycles were the ones in charge and researched an ability to seize the power of Reapers. They could have found a way to use or coopt the Crucible's power to broadcast a signal to disrupt the Reaper's AI computing and distribute a new AI program based on the being (Shep in the case of ME3) that is destructively analyzed.

Ultimately, as unexplained as the Crucible's potential effects were, when I first saw the ending I was much more interesting in talking about how it could work, rather than complaining that it didn't make any sense.

Modifié par Obadiah, 09 janvier 2014 - 03:57 .

[NeonFlux117]

Obadiah wrote...

Just to address several points made in no particular order.

Discovery: There's really no other useful way to find a weapon like this other than in a data cache of a previous cycle near the beginning of or before the Reaper invasion starts. We could have found the plans in parts, and we sort of did since the Catalyst is the part that is missing until the end.

If we'd found the weapon any later we probably wouldn't be able to build it because this cycle would be so devastated. Convenient? Sure, on the 700+ cycle we happened to finally recover the plans in time, while still having the ability to construct the device.


Building without Understanding: There's no way around the idea that it is silly that we would expend the resources to actually build a weapon of the scale, when we didn't actually know how it works.

The only thing that makes sense to me for the story is that the Alliance builders understood enough of the Crucible to realize that thing would be incredibly useful. As in, "Here we can see the scale of this generator here would be useful in powering a weapon of sufficient power to destroy a Reaper in one blast, but we're not sure how this control here will affect the generator given the minute change in reaction. So we need this if we have any hope of winning..." etc.

Until the end where they just weren't sure how to direct the blast on a galaxy-wide scale.


Function: Why the Crucible functions the way it does with (Control, Destroy, and Synthesis) is left up in the air, but I have a couple of competing ideas on that:

a) The Crucible is built as a weapon for AI destruction, and the Catalyst appropriates it to 2 other functions. I think that just because I've always gotten the 3 options at the end, the Catalyst describes Destroy first, and Destroy is initiated by blowing some valve in the corner preventing the Crucible from firing.

b)The Control and Destroy functions build off the recurring conflict within each cycle to control or destroy the Reapers. I imagine that the controllers in some cycles were the ones in charge and researched an ability to seize the power of Reapers such that they basically found a way to use the Crucible to disrupt the Reaper's AI computing and distribute a new AI program based on the being that is destructively analyzed.

Ultimately, as unexplained as the Crucible's potential effects were, when I first saw the ending, I was much more interesting in talking about how it could work than complaining that it didn't make any sense.

And when you really "dig" into how it could work.... 

You only arrive at a few deterninations and "theories" of how it could work 

And I'm very happy to see a member of the "team" so to speak still derpin' around BSN. 

For, in TBSS we trust......

[CrutchCricket]

It's a total asspull, is what it is, and it makes no sense whatsoever. The only way it would make sense in-universe would be if it was leaked by Leviathan every cycle on the off-chance that they actually manage to build and use it in time to take out the Reapers so it can return to ruling the galaxy.

Or if they had gone the non-full-retard way with the Catalyst, where it wasn't the enemy overlord masquerading as a holographic child but was an independent entity stuck in the Citadel (literally a ghost in the machine) that was against the Reapers but unable to prevent the cycles unless someone were to build a device that would free it to affect their systems. Again, possibly put there by Leviathan, or some previous cycle. It would've made for much more interesting conversation anyway, talking with a a passive but helpless observer of the Reapers all this millenia, as opposed to "wah, synthetics are bad here is my solution, fire isn't at war" bull****.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 09 janvier 2014 - 03:47 .

[NeonFlux117]

I gotta admit, at face value interpretation, the ending is full retard... And you never go full retard... Never.

[nos_astra]

Obadiah wrote...

Discovery: There's really no other useful way to find a weapon like this other than in a data cache of a previous cycle near the beginning of or before the Reaper invasion starts.

They could have started by having Shepard following a lead from Ilos on. Send the protagonist on a quest to find out more about that last hope, entering secluded corners of the galaxy, not yet discovered. Where it makes sense to stumble upon plans for a Reaper doomsday device. Where the increasingly paranoid and frustrated "hero" is out of the public eye and busy.

You'd still be able to nitpick this to death. There would have been a lots of contrivances. It would have been neither terribly original nor sophisticated but it would have advanced the plot throughout the series. And Shepard would have been proactive and working largely on his own.

It would have got the job done ... and still left room for Cerberus offering an alliance and recruiting misifts.

Modifié par klarabella, 09 janvier 2014 - 04:12 .

[CronoDragoon]

David7204 wrote...
It really doesn't matter how 'sense' is makes within the universe if it's existence is narratively contrived

Aren't you the guy who routinely points out how everything in a story is contrived when it suits your argument?

and thematically void. And that's really the worst part. The part never addressed on the BSN except by me.

Since the Crucible is an amalgamation of plans, tweaks, and additions from every (or at least many) cycle previous, the victory it gains is not only a victory for this cycle but also every cycle previous. With conventional victory, the deaths of trillions throughout history are meaningless. By using what is essentially a weapon built by the Cycle Victims, you not only draw on the unity of THIS cycle (through the massing of forces necessary to even break through Reaper lines and dock the Crucible) you retroactively include the historical galactic occupants as well.

That being said, they did a terrible job implementing the idea of the Crucible.

I've thought a lot about the relationship between the Crucible and Citadel (made a thread trying to work out a timeline for the Crucible here) and ultimately the only conclusion that's consistent with everything said in the game is that the choices exist as a metaphysical, mystical set of Answers that are given to Shepard because they are The Answers.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 09 janvier 2014 - 04:14 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CrutchCricket wrote...

It's a total asspull, is what it is, and it makes no sense whatsoever. The only way it would make sense in-universe would be if it was leaked by Leviathan every cycle on the off-chance that they actually manage to build and use it in time to take out the Reapers so it can return to ruling the galaxy.

Or if they had gone the non-full-retard way with the Catalyst, where it wasn't the enemy overlord masquerading as a holographic child but was an independent entity stuck in the Citadel (literally a ghost in the machine) that was against the Reapers but unable to prevent the cycles unless someone were to build a device that would free it to affect their systems. Again, possibly put there by Leviathan, or some previous cycle. It would've made for much more interesting conversation anyway, talking with a a passive but helpless observer of the Reapers all this millenia, as opposed to "wah, synthetics are bad here is my solution, fire isn't at war" bull****.

This to me seems to be more of a problem with the Catalyst rather than the Crucible itself.

And what you're saying is that the overall concept was alright, just that it was poorly implemented.

So, basically what everyone (except David) has been saying already.

[Invisible Man]

neonflux117 wrote...
Yeah, I know what you mean. But again the Geth fleet were an escort, not really a protective unit. There is a difference.

Sovereing was kicking the sh!t outta the fleets until... Shep made it drop it's barriers.

And plus, the Geth were needed for the ground invasion of the citadel. But even then, they couldn't stop one determined N7 marine and his rifle smilie.... And/or biotic combo's; Which ever you prefer... Lots of guns. Or lots of biotics. Both are good.

first, an escort is a protective screen of ships; and second the geth fleet did far more damage to the citadel defenders than sovereign did. though sovereign did a s**t-ton of damage to the system alliance fleets.

jamesp81 wrote...
It doesn't technically fit the definition of a Deus Ex Machina. DEM would be if the plot involved trying to win a conventional war and, when that failed, the Crucible was brought in out of nowhere to solve the problem. It wasn't written this way, however, the Crucible was a plot element of the story and not a DEM.

That doesn't mean it makes sense or that it was a good plot element. Not being a DEM does not imply good writing. In fact I think the Crucible was a horrible idea.

I think a better plot would've been to write the Reapers as powerful, but imply that their strategy required being able to to control the relays and use indoctrinated agents (ie, their numbers weren't quite enough to win a war of attrition in most cycles).

This would've made Arrival actually have more meaning. It would also create a situation where the Allies could win by waging attritional warfare if the player achieved enough EMS. An interesting story where victory was determined by player actions and not a MacGuffin.

the crucible wasn't a dem, the starbrat was. though it could be argued that because of the dream sequences shepard had, that the catalyst wasn't a dem either... though, I'd call that reaching quite a bit too far.

Modifié par Invisible Man, 09 janvier 2014 - 04:43 .

[AlanC9]

Sion1138 wrote...

Yeah, except they didn't know what it was or what it does up until the very end.

No one person of all those who worked on it ever figured out what it's supposed to do.

So, devoting every possible resource to a thing you don't understand and the purpose of which is unclear makes sense?

Clearly this is a redefinition of the term "sense".

Not really, because whether or not an action makes sense depends on the available alternative actions. Any chance beats zero chance.

[CrutchCricket]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
This to me seems to be more of a problem with the Catalyst rather than the Crucible itself.

And what you're saying is that the overall concept was alright, just that it was poorly implemented.

So, basically what everyone (except David) has been saying already.

The first option deals (and fixes) only the Crucible. The second fixes the Catalyst as well.

You'd have to go pretty far back on the "overall scale" to say it's just implementation- "a thing you interact with what magically solves your insolvable problem for you", but sure.

A gun is a thing that bullets come out of that kills enemies. But if you want to call the difference between going into gold/plat match with a Claymore vs a Katana "implementation", that's fine by me.

[CynicalShep]

What have you done, OP? You summoned HIM

[CrutchCricket]

CynicalShep wrote...

What have you done, OP? You summoned HIM

?

[ruggly]

CrutchCricket wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

What have you done, OP? You summoned HIM

?

David.

[CrutchCricket]

Oh. Well you're never really fully rid of David. He's like the gift that keeps on giving.

[CynicalShep]

Liara has plot armor

[MassPredator]

Has no sense, The Crucible cannot be manufactured o designed for a previuos species, Reaper tactics wouldn´t alloy it. Shutting off all comunications, shutting down the mass relay network, it simple cannot happend, Whatever or whoever design it is a mistery. Personally i like to think on a organic race from another galaxy who send the schematics a race that overcome a similar threath.

[Fixers0]

AlanC9 wrote...
Not really, because whether or not an action makes sense depends on the available alternative actions. Any chance beats zero chance.

Flase. Conventional means have proven to be effective against Reaper force, devoting massive amounts of resources to something of a unkown purpose is deemed nonsensical. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

I like the idea of a conventional victory, although to have any success at working it would require ME2 as a build up. Still as bad as a conventional victory is, to me it never seemed any worse than the idea of a super weapon, which in all the scenarios I can think of still carries the same problem as a conventional victory. Which is that if such a means was available before hand, how come it was never used, or built, or possible, etc?

I think the problem might be with ME1 painting them as unbeatable, so the only solution is to keep them from arriving, which just seems kinda lame, although maybe it could work. It just seems like that if the current cycle does have to fight them any direction that the story takes is going to be silly any way, so I figure it might as well take the form of epic battle sequences. Edit: And just worked out to be as plausible as possible.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 09 janvier 2014 - 06:39 .

[NeroonWilliams]

Fixers0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Not really, because whether or not an action makes sense depends on the available alternative actions. Any chance beats zero chance.

Flase. Conventional means have proven to be effective against Reaper force, devoting massive amounts of resources to something of a unkown purpose is deemed nonsensical. 

Let's see, conventional battles have defeated exactly how many Reapers?

TWO.  Sovereign and Rannoch.  Both instances required an entire race's fleet to bring it about.  There are no fewer than HUNDREDS of Reaper capital ships (plus smaller ships).  There are no more than 10 such fleets in existence in the MEU.

Even with guerrilla tactics (which are NOT conventional), the forces available to we organics is not up to the task of defeating THAT force.

[Iakus]

People have a very narrow sense of what "conventional means" are

[ImaginaryMatter]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

Let's see, conventional battles have defeated exactly how many Reapers?

TWO.  Sovereign and Rannoch.  Both instances required an entire race's fleet to bring it about.  There are no fewer than HUNDREDS of Reaper capital ships (plus smaller ships).  There are no more than 10 such fleets in existence in the MEU.

Even with guerrilla tactics (which are NOT conventional), the forces available to we organics is not up to the task of defeating THAT force.

I think when people talk about 'conventioanl victory' they mean victory brought about without any kind of super weapon, basically using the current level of ships, technology, etc to defeat the Reapers; I don't think they mean conventional as in the sense of standard military tactics. And according to the Codex at least several dozen Reaper capital ship shave been destroyed by the Turians alone, plus an unspecified number of Destroyers and other Reaper vessels. It's not a lot but it is something.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 09 janvier 2014 - 07:02 .