493 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Imagine for a moment, a mission after the Rannoch arc. You have Shepard about to land on some planet to take care of a mission. Before she does, however, we have a cutscene of a few Sovereign class Reapers occupying the planet. Maybe a half dozen.

We then see a cutscene of geth and quarian forces swarming in, dividing themselves up, blowing the Reapers across the planet to bits. Maybe cleaning up a a few destroyers afterwards.

Simple and clean. And plausible. The geth and quarian fleets are certainly large enough to accomplish such a task. A few dozen dreadnoughts, who knows how many cruisers and frigates. Hundreds, probably. As the codex says, attackers always have the advantage.

And the scene is really not given much weight. The Reapers are dead, the bulk of the fleets head back through relay to deal with something else while perhaps a few dozen ships stay behind as clean up, and the mission proceeds. There's a few lines of dialogue acknowledging the success, but the story shifts to whatever Shepard is dealing with planetside.

If such a scene existed, I guarantee you the BSN, or at least a significant number of people on it, would be shrieking it's lungs out the conventional victory was not only possible, but even easy.

But such a scene does not exist, nor did it ever exist, nor was there ever any indication that this kind of issue would ever exist. 

It's simply not possible with the Reapers. The Quarians and the Geth would divide themselves up, shoot at the Reapers... and get promptly vaporized and wiped out. What you want requires changing the Reapers to be something else, something weaker. It's not simple, and it's not clean, and it's not plausible. It took an entire alliance fleet to destroy one Reaper, and the one on Rannoch took multiple salvo's from the Quarian fleet before it was destroyed. This scenario is wishful thinking. It's not real. The Reapers are not what you describe, and neither are the Quarians or the Geth, or any other species in existence in the galaxy.

And even if you did give your scene a thought, what would happen once the races of the galaxy face a much larger horde of Reapers than half a dozen? Like the fleet of hundreds that is over Earth?

Not to mention the complete assumption and supposition towards the number of warships attacking the Reapers.

So no, this theory is impossible. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AlanC9 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If such a scene existed, I guarantee you the BSN, or at least a significant number of people on it, would be shrieking it's lungs out the conventional victory was not only possible, but even easy.

I gotta go with David on this one. It's hard to shut that argument up even now.

But such a scene doesn't exist. Nor did it ever exist at all. Only the contrary was ever shown. Repeated, sustained salvo's from an entire fleet just to destroy one Reaper. The theory of that argument is sound, yes, but since there was never an instance where it was the case, it's nothing but speculation (shoot me) and wishful thinking.

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

What happened on Rannoch was somewhat stupid. But thankfully, easily fixed. Simply have the quarians make it clear they can only devote a very small fraction of their firepower to Shepard since their fleet needs to be focused on holding the geth off.

"I want the laser hooked up to the whole quarian fleet."
/sees cutscene of entire fleet firing at Reaper.

If you'd like, you could even have the quarians say they're going to calibrate their firepower (in other words, weaken it) to not kill Shepard by shockwaves or whatever. Two birds with one stone.

The capital ships would just blast through them in the amount of time that this would take to ever get throught their shields. It just doesn't and never will make sense. I can live with that, but I'm not going to pretend that this isn't the case. It takes several dreadnaughts at full firing power to destroy even one capital ship and that is if they constatly bombard it while it ignores them. 

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Even if there was a way to do it, you seem to be under the impression that the Reapers are going to sit by and do nothing while the galactic forces fiddle with the relay. Which is silly.

And how is this not a probem with your geth + quarian scenario? 

[AlanC9]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

As Shepard watches the screen of the destruction caused by the Relay the explosion seems to take out all the planets in the system in the course of about 5 seconds.

What this proves is that the whole cutscene is b.s. Even if that did happen  -- and the lore says it couldn't -- Shepard couldn't have watched it in real time. There are no FTL sensors. Unless the argument is that the ME field somehow magically included the whole system?

Destabilizng a satellites orbit is much easier (in terms of energy required) than moving something as big as an asteroid into something else. It's cheesy but not cheesier things have been done in ME.

Deorbiting the relay doesn't give you all that much velocity. Orbital velocity for Pluto isn't very fast.

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If such a scene existed, I guarantee you the BSN, or at least a significant number of people on it, would be shrieking it's lungs out the conventional victory was not only possible, but even easy.

I gotta go with David on this one. It's hard to shut that argument up even now.

But such a scene doesn't exist. Nor did it ever exist at all. Only the contrary was ever shown. Repeated, sustained salvo's from an entire fleet just to destroy one Reaper. The theory of that argument is sound, yes, but since there was never an instance where it was the case, it's nothing but speculation (shoot me) and wishful thinking.

Sure. I was just working with the postulate.

[Obadiah]

AlanC9 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Well obviously we would distract the Reapers somehow, if only to get rid of the one Reaper guarding the Relay. Maybe send in the Normandy and have it fly around pinging stuff.

Wouldn't they monitor it with comm relay buoys rather than an actual Reaper?

A Reaper could take direct action against a threat. With a buoy, the Reapers have to get to the Relay, and might not arrive until it is too late.

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Even if there was a way to do it, you seem to be under the impression that the Reapers are going to sit by and do nothing while the galactic forces fiddle with the relay. Which is silly.

And how is this not a probem with your geth + quarian scenario? 

Simple. The attacker always had the advantage. The quarians and geth would already know where the Reapers are, already know how prepared they are to fight. Approaching the planet at FTL, they have the opportunity to divide and position themselves before the Reapers even know they're there.

After positioning themselves at a sufficiently close range and with enough ships (which shouldn't a problem,) I see no reason why the geth and quarians shouldn't be able to bombard them with minimal or even no losses. They have shots lined before the Reapers even know they're above them.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 08:36 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Yes, if events of ME3 had been different then a conventional victory got have been possible, no one is denying that. The problem is your assertion that this fanficiton has anything to do with ME3.

[David7204]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Yes, if events of ME3 had been different then a conventional victory got have been possible, no one is denying that. The problem is your assertion that this fanficiton has anything to do with ME3.

That is utter nonsense.

The point you and several others seem to be missing is that nothing I've suggested really changes anything about the story. The Reapers are still monsters of extreme duralbility and power. The galaxy is still the galaxy. All the important elements are still intact.

In fact, it even goes further than that. Not only have I kept them intact, I'm sharpened them. I've made them better by removing discrepencies such as the one on Rannoch.

And yet this scenario exists within all that and is yet perfectly possible.

It's been said countless times that conventional victory is impossible without significantly altering the Reapers or galaxy. Here I am with a plausible chunk of conventional victory that doesn't rely on any of that whatsoever. Writing a scenario that time and time and again has been whined to be impossible.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 08:41 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

As Shepard watches the screen of the destruction caused by the Relay the explosion seems to take out all the planets in the system in the course of about 5 seconds.

What this proves is that the whole cutscene is b.s. Even if that did happen  -- and the lore says it couldn't -- Shepard couldn't have watched it in real time. There are no FTL sensors. Unless the argument is that the ME field somehow magically included the whole system?

Destabilizng a satellites orbit is much easier (in terms of energy required) than moving something as big as an asteroid into something else. It's cheesy but not cheesier things have been done in ME.

Deorbiting the relay doesn't give you all that much velocity. Orbital velocity for Pluto isn't very fast.

But the scene does happen. Maybe some strange physics are at work when a Relay explodes.

I'm not advocating crashing the Relay into Pluto by destabalizing it, I'm just saying that kind of stuff happens fairly often in the MEU, if you add some techno babble almost anything is possible.

[David7204]

AlanC9 wrote...

What this proves is that the whole cutscene is b.s. Even if that did happen  -- and the lore says it couldn't -- Shepard couldn't have watched it in real time. There are no FTL sensors. Unless the argument is that the ME field somehow magically included the whole system?

The easy answer is that it's simply a simulation.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 08:45 .

[AlanC9]

Obadiah wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Well obviously we would distract the Reapers somehow, if only to get rid of the one Reaper guarding the Relay. Maybe send in the Normandy and have it fly around pinging stuff.

Wouldn't they monitor it with comm relay buoys rather than an actual Reaper?

A Reaper could take direct action against a threat. With a buoy, the Reapers have to get to the Relay, and might not arrive until it is too late.

How far from Earth is Pluto at full speed?

Anyway, even if you blow up the relay, the Reapers have five hours to leave Earth. How long are you going to cover up that the relay's blown?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Yes, if events of ME3 had been different then a conventional victory got have been possible, no one is denying that. The problem is your assertion that this fanficiton has anything to do with ME3.

That is utter nonsense.

The point you and several others seem to be missing is that nothing I've suggested really changes anything about the story. The Reapers are still monsters of extreme duralbility and power. The galaxy is still the galaxy. All the important elements are still intact.

No it doesn't. Yes, they are still big machines of extreme durability and power. Yes the galaxy is still the galaxy. I'm sure we have very different idea's on what the important elements.

And yet this scenario exists within all that and is yet perfectly possible.

Then why was it never accomplished? Why was it never mentioned? Why was it that all the fleets faced nothing but desolation and destruction when attacking the Reapers?

I don't believe this is possible. At all.

Especially since you see the entire Quarian fleet fire multiple full salvo's at one Reaper destroyer. It survives at least 3 before it is brought down. One Destroyer. That's not even full size. And it takes the entire Quarian fleet to down it.

It's been said countless times that conventional victory is impossible without significantly altering the Reapers or galaxy. Here I am with a plausible chunk of conventional victory that doesn't rely on any of that whatsoever. Writing a scenario that time and time and again has been whined to be impossible.

It's absolutely impossible. It's not plausible. The Rannoch scenario disproves it completely. 

You're relying on a lot of assumptions with your scenario, assuming that the Reapers will be completely in the dark of what's going on above them, assuming that the Reapers have so orbital sentry, assuming that the Reapers will ALWAYS be outnumbered on every planet, assuming that the fleets will always be able to divide themselves into smaller elements to attack multiple portions of the planet, assuming that the tactic will work more than once, just a lot of assuming. A lot of relying on the unsaid. A lot of relying on wishful thinking.

This isn't the worst theory I've ever heard, but it's not anything worth considering either.

This is nothing but fanfiction and headcanon.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 09 janvier 2014 - 08:49 .

[AlanC9]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

But the scene does happen. Maybe some strange physics are at work when a Relay explodes.

I'm not advocating crashing the Relay into Pluto by destabalizing it, I'm just saying that kind of stuff happens fairly often in the MEU, if you add some techno babble almost anything is possible.

If you want to say that Bio could have violated their own lore, then sure. Bio can rewrite their own lore at will, even to the point of incoherence.

And if you're going to play the technobabble card, there's no point in arguing against it. Once we're doing that the net is down, and you can destroy Reapers with any flavor of technobabble you like.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 janvier 2014 - 08:50 .

[AlanC9]

David7204 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

What this proves is that the whole cutscene is b.s. Even if that did happen  -- and the lore says it couldn't -- Shepard couldn't have watched it in real time. There are no FTL sensors. Unless the argument is that the ME field somehow magically included the whole system?

The easy answer is that it's simply a simulation.

Well, the easiest answer is cutscene/lore incoherence, which ME does give us a lot of . But simulation works for me; I prefer to preserve the integrity of scenes if at all possible.

[von uber]

Just to say, if you skip to about 03:00 in this video:

You can see there are about 4 Quarian ships firing at the reaper. Most of the shots miss too (lucky Shep had her plot armour on, borrowed from Liara).

[David7204]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, the easiest answer is cutscene/lore incoherence, which ME does give us a lot of . But simulation works for me; I prefer to preserve the integrity of scenes if at all possible.

The easiest and wrong answer.

If there's a simple and plausible solution to a discrepancy, you're obligated to believe it. Narratives must be examined with an presumption of...well, perhaps not innocence, but truth.

Modifié par David7204, 09 janvier 2014 - 08:55 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, the easiest answer is cutscene/lore incoherence, which ME does give us a lot of . But simulation works for me; I prefer to preserve the integrity of scenes if at all possible.

The easiest and wrong answer.

If there's a simple and plausible solution to a discrepancy, you're obligated to believe it. Narratives must be examined with an presumption of...well, perhaps not innocence, but truth.

Well, that's the ****ed up thing I've read for today. 

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

If there's a simple and plausible solution to a discrepancy, you're obligated to believe it.

Haven't read a lot of mystery novels, have you?

[Daemul]

That Reaper Destroyer on Rannoch man, bloody hell. I've never seen anything so durable in my life.

[Obadiah]

AlanC9 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Well obviously we would distract the Reapers somehow, if only to get rid of the one Reaper guarding the Relay. Maybe send in the Normandy and have it fly around pinging stuff.

Wouldn't they monitor it with comm relay buoys rather than an actual Reaper?

A Reaper could take direct action against a threat. With a buoy, the Reapers have to get to the Relay, and might not arrive until it is too late.

How far from Earth is Pluto at full speed?

Anyway, even if you blow up the relay, the Reapers have five hours to leave Earth. How long are you going to cover up that the relay's blown?

Truely, FTL capabilities of the Reapers make this plan a no-go, unless we can find some way to keep the Reapers or the Citadel in place.

[David7204]

Do you have any more comments on my scenario, Dreamgazer? Pieces like these are what end up constituting the conventional victory you continually demand. Best to address your concerns now.

This is first year law school stuff. Presumption of innocence. Based on exactly the same reasoning and has exactly the same merit as the one used in court.