260 réponses à ce sujet

[Orian Tabris]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

Wrong. And even if you weren't wrong, Hawke NEVER puts those together.

Still, that's not the point of this discussion. There is reason to believe that Anders is too dangerous to be left alive.

Indeed, but not by how you were saying it.

[Texhnolyze101]

AresKeith wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Rotward wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Veruin wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...
Because i haven't done anything to be banned for.

You can't go 3 posts without calling the chantry "A bunch of idiot cultists" and continually denounce religion as "for idiots."   I'm an athiest and you are just a walking stereotype of us.

I call them what i see them as and was asking House to give me a few reasons as to what real logical reason there is to kill Anders.

Justice, from the point of view of the chantry. While I don't think you've done anything ban worthy, and I think Anders' actions were justified, there are plenty of reasons to kill the chap. 

Other then that little outburst in which he almost killed one of the very people he claimed to be protecting i still don't see why anyone would kill him and with the templar vs mage war happening he could be very useful on the battlefield.

Because he's an unstable man-child you doesn't care for killing innocent people as long as he gets his way

I see such a person as useful especially if that person is on my side.

[rapscallioness]

Veruin wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

Wrong. And even if you weren't wrong, Hawke NEVER puts those together.

Hawke can't put 2 and 2 together because the plot demands he can't.

Yeah, you can't stop Anders from blowing up the Chantry. You can refuse to do his quest. You can report him to the Templars. But you can't stop it. You can't warn anybody. You can't do anything.

[Silfren]

Orian Tabris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Pretty sure by this time Vengeance took over if still alive

Vengeance can't take over him. They "are as one." The only thing vegeance can do is replace him in the mortal realm, fulltime (ignoring the fact that it was actually in the mortal realm anyway, since it was unable to do anything). Eventually Vengeance might replace him in the mortal realm, while Anders replaces it in the Fade.

Basically, Vengeance is just slowly leaving the Fade and entering the mortal realm permanently, for good(?).

Not necessarily true.  Anders himself will tell you flat out that Vengeance takes him over sometimes, and you see this for yourself at least three times.

Not sure what you mean by Vengeance slowly leaving the Fade.  He's not in the Fade at all, but fused with Anders's body and fully in the mortal realm.

You don't understand what I'm saying. When Vengeance CONTROLLS Anders' body, Anders loses the ability to control his body, just like Vengeance can't when it isn't taking over. If Vengeance takes over permanently, Anders will be unable to do anything unless inside the Fade. He will be stuck "living" through Vengeance, and all that it experiences.

And I think you're not getting that controlling Anders body, or replacing it, MEAN THE SAME THING AS "taking it over."  Or do you not realize how silly it is to say "He can't take him over, he can only replace him," as if that's somehow a different thing?

Vengeance can and does take over.  We see this for ourselves at least twice, and potentially three or four times.  And I don't know why you keep insisting that Anders could somehow exert more control in the Fade, when we explicitly see that Vengeance/Justice assumes absolute control over Anders in that situation without any effort at all.

[Veruin]

rapscallioness wrote...

Yeah, you can't stop Anders from blowing up the Chantry. You can refuse to do his quest. You can report him to the Templars. But you can't stop it. You can't warn anybody. You can't do anything.

Yep.  The plot demands that Anders blows up the chantry, no exceptions.

Modifié par Veruin, 10 janvier 2014 - 01:04 .

[AresKeith]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Because he's an unstable man-child you doesn't care for killing innocent people as long as he gets his way

I see such a person as useful especially if that person is on my side.

Then again I'm not really surprised to see you say this

[Lulupab]

Silfren wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Pretty sure by this time Vengeance took over if still alive

Vengeance can't take over him. They "are as one." The only thing vegeance can do is replace him in the mortal realm, fulltime (ignoring the fact that it was actually in the mortal realm anyway, since it was unable to do anything). Eventually Vengeance might replace him in the mortal realm, while Anders replaces it in the Fade.

Basically, Vengeance is just slowly leaving the Fade and entering the mortal realm permanently, for good(?).

Not necessarily true.  Anders himself will tell you flat out that Vengeance takes him over sometimes, and you see this for yourself at least three times.

Not sure what you mean by Vengeance slowly leaving the Fade.  He's not in the Fade at all, but fused with Anders's body and fully in the mortal realm.

You don't understand what I'm saying. When Vengeance CONTROLLS Anders' body, Anders loses the ability to control his body, just like Vengeance can't when it isn't taking over. If Vengeance takes over permanently, Anders will be unable to do anything unless inside the Fade. He will be stuck "living" through Vengeance, and all that it experiences.

And I think you're not getting that controlling Anders body, or replacing it, MEAN THE SAME THING AS "taking it over."  Or do you not realize how silly it is to say "He can't take him over, he can only replace him," as if that's somehow a different thing?

Vengeance can and does take over.  We see this for ourselves at least twice, and potentially three or four times.  And I don't know why you keep insisting that Anders could somehow exert more control in the Fade, when we explicitly see that Vengeance/Justice assumes absolute control over Anders in that situation without any effort at all.

Vengeace only takes over when Anders is angry.

[Silfren]

Rassler wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

You don't understand what I'm saying. When Vengeance CONTROLLS Anders' body, Anders loses the ability to control his body, just like Vengeance can't when it isn't taking over. If Vengeance takes over permanently, Anders will be unable to do anything unless inside the Fade. He will be stuck "living" through Vengeance, and all that it experiences.

And I think you're not getting that controlling Anders body, or replacing it, MEAN THE SAME THING AS "taking it over."  Or do you not realize how silly it is to say "He can't take him over, he can only replace him," as if that's somehow a different thing?

Vengeance can and does take over.  We see this for ourselves at least twice, and potentially three or four times.  And I don't know why you keep insisting that Anders could somehow exert more control in the Fade, when we explicitly see that Vengeance/Justice assumes absolute control over Anders in that situation without any effort at all.

Vengeace only takes over when Anders is angry.

Or in the Fade, or when Anders is fighting against what Vengeance wants.  But my point has nothing to do when and how Vengeance is able to assume control, but rather that it is incorrect to say that Vengeance can't take him over.  He indisputably can and does.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 janvier 2014 - 01:07 .

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: depending on the path. On rivarly Vengeance took control of Anders if you convinced him to stop doing what he was doing (bombing the Chantry). 

Modifié par hhh89, 10 janvier 2014 - 01:05 .

[Orian Tabris]

LISTEN TO ME:

• Anders is not in the Fade
• Vengeance is ONLY in the Fade when Anders' body enters, whereupon the spirit takes CONTROL
• Vegeance cannot control Anders' body unless Anders' rage begins to go out of control
• I have no idea how or if Anders can take over Vengeance in the Fade
• Anders will most likely be unable to move UNLESS in the Fade, once Vengeance takes over the host body
• Vengeance and Anders are mentally linked
• Vengance has no control over Anders unless he becomes enraged, possibly weakening his mind, allowing for Vengeance to control the body
• Vengeance cannot do anything in the mortal realm unless Anders gets enraged
• Anders cannot do anything in the Fade, except maybe in a specific case, I don't know
• The only thing the two can do is "live" inside the body
• Once Anders dies, Vengeance will likely go back to the Fade, possibly as Justice
• The TWO ARE AS ONE

[Texhnolyze101]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

Wrong. And even if you weren't wrong, Hawke NEVER puts those together.

Still, that's not the point of this discussion. There is reason to believe that Anders is too dangerous to be left alive.

Indeed, but not by how you were saying it.

That he's an unstable man who planned out the killing of many people, hates imprisonment and would probably do the same thing given another chance? The only wrong part of my statement was the Hawke angle.

Blowing up chantrys can be used as a demoralizing tactic that could prove very useful and one my inquisitor would happily use and recruit Anders and have him leading the demolition teams.

[The Elder King]

@Orian Tabris: Vengeance managed to take control and force him to not take the bomb away on rivarly. Anders stated that he don't think he can control him any longer. So no, they're not one.

[Orian Tabris]

Silfren wrote...

And I think you're not getting that controlling Anders body, or replacing it, MEAN THE SAME THING AS "taking it over."  Or do you not realize how silly it is to say "He can't take him over, he can only replace him," as if that's somehow a different thing?

Vengeance can and does take over.  We see this for ourselves at least twice, and potentially three or four times.  And I don't know why you keep insisting that Anders could somehow exert more control in the Fade, when we explicitly see that Vengeance/Justice assumes absolute control over Anders in that situation without any effort at all.

No it doesn't. Semantics you see.

And Anders will likely replace Vengeance in the Fade if the spirit TAKES OVER his body. Perhaps Anders would be trapped entirely, I don't know. And if I say otherwise anywhere, then fine, he doesn't take over Vengeance in the Fade.

[AresKeith]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Blowing up chantrys can be used as a demoralizing tactic that could prove very useful and one my inquisitor would happily use and recruit Anders and have him leading the demolition teams.

Don't see how that's a demoralizing tactic when the Templars aren't part of the chantry anymore

Seems like an excuse for unstable people

Modifié par AresKeith, 10 janvier 2014 - 01:11 .

[Veruin]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...
Blowing up chantrys can be used as a demoralizing tactic that could prove very useful and one my inquisitor would happily use and recruit Anders and have him leading the demolition teams.

Yea...if by "demoralizing" you mean a rally cry that this inquisitor is evil and should be slain. 

[Orian Tabris]

hhh89 wrote...

@Orian Tabris: Vengeance managed to take control and force him to not take the bomb away on rivarly. Anders stated that he don't think he can control him any longer. So no, they're not one.

They are one. They are two in one. Anders and Vengeance have not melded completely, but they are one in the same. Likely if one dies after being melded completely, the other will also die.

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 10 janvier 2014 - 01:12 .

[Lulupab]

Orian Tabris wrote...

LISTEN TO ME:

• Anders is not in the Fade
• Vengeance is ONLY in the Fade when Anders' body enters, whereupon the spirit takes CONTROL
• Vegeance cannot control Anders' body unless Anders' rage begins to go out of control
• I have no idea how or if Anders can take over Vengeance in the Fade
• Anders will most likely be unable to move UNLESS in the Fade, once Vengeance takes over the host body
• Vengeance and Anders are mentally linked
• Vengance has no control over Anders unless he becomes enraged, possibly weakening his mind, allowing for Vengeance to control the body
• Vengeance cannot do anything in the mortal realm unless Anders gets enraged
• Anders cannot do anything in the Fade, except maybe in a specific case, I don't know
• The only thing the two can do is "live" inside the body
• Once Anders dies, Vengeance will likely go back to the Fade, possibly as Justice
• The TWO ARE AS ONE

Some of them are false like seriosly. Justice is STUCK outside of the fade thanks to baroness. Anders says Justice was dying as he was stuck outside the fade without a host so he offered himself. So no Justice is fully in Thedas and when you take Anders to fade and Justice takes over he says he missed the fade.

There is no saying what happens once Anders dies. He could not go back when he left Kristoff's body.

Rest of them are true. 

[Vandicus]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...


Blowing up chantrys can be used as a demoralizing tactic that could prove very useful and one my inquisitor would happily use and recruit Anders and have him leading the demolition teams.

If anything blowing up chantries would probably just ****** of the majority of humans in Thedas. Atrocities and civilian massacres generally incite people to seek revenge, not demoralize them.

[General TSAR]

Make him side with the Templars and then watch him kill all the mages, so satisfying.

"Our Savior!! Anders what can we.....what? Oh No....NO! MERCY! PLEASE!!..(Blood Curling Scream)."

And afterwords his reputation as a "Freedom Fighter" will evaporate and he'll forever be traumatized to the point of falling on his sharp staff, win-win for all minus the poor walking WMDs.

[Orian Tabris]

The difference between "takes over" and "takes control" is that Vengeance takes over Anders, THEN controls his body.

[Silfren]

Orian Tabris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And I think you're not getting that controlling Anders body, or replacing it, MEAN THE SAME THING AS "taking it over."  Or do you not realize how silly it is to say "He can't take him over, he can only replace him," as if that's somehow a different thing?

Vengeance can and does take over.  We see this for ourselves at least twice, and potentially three or four times.  And I don't know why you keep insisting that Anders could somehow exert more control in the Fade, when we explicitly see that Vengeance/Justice assumes absolute control over Anders in that situation without any effort at all.

No it doesn't. Semantics you see.

And Anders will likely replace Vengeance in the Fade if the spirit TAKES OVER his body. Perhaps Anders would be trapped entirely, I don't know. And if I say otherwise anywhere, then fine, he doesn't take over Vengeance in the Fade.

The spirit HAS taken over his body on several occasions.  Vengeance is trapped within Anders's body.  There's no reason at all to believe he can even get back TO the Fade.  That was the entire arc of Justice's story in Awakening, and Anders's reason for offering himself as a host to Justice in the first place.

I don't know what you're even talking about with Anders replacing Vengeance in the Fade.  It isn't like they did a swap.  They both occupy the same meatsack, with Vengeance having the ability to overwhelm Anders's and take him over.  You keep denying this but the game explicitly shows Vengeance doing exactly that.  Anders even uses those exact words: "Vengeance took me over."  You keep trying to say that he takes control, as if that's something different, but no, it's the same thing, and Anders uses the phrase of "took over" anyway.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 janvier 2014 - 01:15 .

[AresKeith]

Silfren wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And I think you're not getting that controlling Anders body, or replacing it, MEAN THE SAME THING AS "taking it over."  Or do you not realize how silly it is to say "He can't take him over, he can only replace him," as if that's somehow a different thing?

Vengeance can and does take over.  We see this for ourselves at least twice, and potentially three or four times.  And I don't know why you keep insisting that Anders could somehow exert more control in the Fade, when we explicitly see that Vengeance/Justice assumes absolute control over Anders in that situation without any effort at all.

No it doesn't. Semantics you see.

And Anders will likely replace Vengeance in the Fade if the spirit TAKES OVER his body. Perhaps Anders would be trapped entirely, I don't know. And if I say otherwise anywhere, then fine, he doesn't take over Vengeance in the Fade.

The spirit HAS taken over his body on several occasions.  Vengeance is trapped within Anders's body.  There's no reason at all to believe he can even get back TO the Fade.  That was the entire arc of Justice's story in Awakening, and Anders's reason for offering himself as a host to Justice in the first place.

I don't know what you're even talking about with Anders replacing Vengeance in the Fade.  It isn't like they did a swap.  They both occupy the same meatsack, with Vengeance having the ability to overwhelm Anders's and take him over.  You keep denying this but the game explicitly shows Vengeance doing exactly that.  Anders even uses those exact words.  "Vengeance took me over."  You keep trying to say that he only takes control as if that's a different thing, but no, that's EXACTLY the same thing.

He's trolling