175 réponses à ce sujet

[HSomCokeSniper]

Strange comments. "Too modern"?
Has any of the devs ever said that they are aiming for an accurate copy of the 11th century Europe as their setting or something? If not, then it's not too anything.

[JoltDealer]

No. It's fantasy. It can look however Bioware wants.

[JCAP]

Crimson Sound wrote...

No. It's fantasy. It can look however Bioware wants.

True. But change it too much and bad things will happen.

[Navasha]

Well a single data point doesn't indicate a "trend". Besides there are differences between Ferelden and Kirkwall.

Also they changed art direction, which is why the darkspawn were also so dramatically different. I am hoping they had enough feedback on DA2's awful combat animations with teleporting backstabbers and ninja-esqe weapons displays that they will correct some of that in DAI.

The exploding bodies from getting stabbed with a dagger was definitely one of my worst gripes with the game, even more so than the re-used maps.

[Afro_Explosion]

Dragon age isn't stuck in full medieval stasis, technology advances slowly.

[Zarathiel]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Bows were honestly the lightest thing I could complain about. And I don't see how posting a picture of a poorly rendered tommy wiseau is suppose to pawn me.

I believe that dragon age doesn't have medieval roots, more traditional sword and sorcery fantasy roots which happen to involve castles and old world warfare. You can't really call something "medieval" in my opinion if you only have light inspirations for the setting at best, the approximate of cosmetically looking like a renaissance fair and nothing else.

Three genres, Fantasy for stories of the past, Supernatural for stories of the present, Sci-fi for stories of the future, and that's just how it goes.

Cannot unsee.

Honestly, though, I agree with your other points, but claiming nationalism isn't real in the Dragon Age series when it's the entire basis of Loghain's character? Seriously?!

[Thetford]

Since we are discussing vaguely Medieval settings, and its merits, including the effects on the colour scheme, might I then suggest that Ferelden engages close studded half timbered architecture, so that the black and white contrasts greatly with the greens and browns?

[dsl08002]

yes

DAO kept its medievel lore but in DA2 bioware switched direction to a more fantasy approach, a mistake in my opinion.

One more bad thing about DA2.

[Deadmac]

Shahravaz wrote...
So remembering that the game is medieval/fantasy, I'm starting to feel that the medieval aspect of the game is slowly lost. Now I'm not judging Inquisition since I haven't played it but this started with Dragon Age 2.

Origins felt so much more medieval. From it's enviroment, characters, armor, and weapons. They had more of a realistic feeling to them. There were still knights and nobility around wearing armor and using weapons that made sense.

Dragon Age: Origins was a medieval 'dark-fantasy' game.
Dragon Age II removed the 'dark-fantasy' aspects of the first game.

Dragon Age: Origins felt like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksk7wPX-MI4

I think the franchise should have stayed as a 'dark-fantasy' series.

Leliana's Song Added Something to the game, which was not cloned in the second one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA-rLV6hGY4

Dark-Romantic-Fantasy set in an epic size medieval world.

Modifié par Deadmac, 11 janvier 2014 - 06:19 .

[Blankeflos]

I think most people aren’t aware there’s a huge difference between the Middle Ages and Medieval Fantasy. To summarize, Medieval Fantasy is not based on the Middle Ages but on the idealized vision of the Middle Ages created by a variety of art movements mixed with elements of fantasy and medieval folklore. It has no commitment with realism, any particular period of time or historical accuracy. That said, if Dragon Age is not Medieval Fantasy, I don’t honestly know what it is.

About the change of style in DAII and again in DA:I, I love what I’ve seen so far. Dragon Age is progressively gaining a visual identity of its own.

[Vandicus]

Deadmac wrote...


Dragon Age: Origins was a medieval 'dark-fantasy' game.
Dragon Age II removed the 'dark-fantasy' aspects of the first game.

To me DA:O felt like high fantasy(unless people consider LOTR dark fantasy nowadays) and DA 2 was closer to dark fantasy.

[Rotward]

Vandicus wrote...

Deadmac wrote...
Dragon Age: Origins was a medieval 'dark-fantasy' game.
Dragon Age II removed the 'dark-fantasy' aspects of the first game.

To me DA:O felt like high fantasy(unless people consider LOTR dark fantasy nowadays) and DA 2 was closer to dark fantasy.

It was dark fantasry, as far as video games go. There was nothing dark about DA2, at all. Bright and sunny, clear villains, no serious betrayals or main character deaths, the hero achieved victory, etc. In origins you could die, you could kill many of your companions, you could fail in many quests, and the whole game was literally darker. Not bright and saturated like DA2. 

[Vandicus]

Rotward wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Deadmac wrote...
Dragon Age: Origins was a medieval 'dark-fantasy' game.
Dragon Age II removed the 'dark-fantasy' aspects of the first game.

To me DA:O felt like high fantasy(unless people consider LOTR dark fantasy nowadays) and DA 2 was closer to dark fantasy.

It was dark fantasry, as far as video games go. There was nothing dark about DA2, at all. Bright and sunny, clear villains, no serious betrayals or main character deaths, the hero achieved victory, etc. In origins you could die, you could kill many of your companions, you could fail in many quests, and the whole game was literally darker. Not bright and saturated like DA2. 

Hawke achieved victory? His entire family gets taken from him in one way or another(and aside from the first sibling to go we actually get to know them). The city of Kirkwall falls no matter what happens. Hawke's story is that of a tragedy. The protagonist fails, and fails, and fails, and the people closest to him die right before his eyes.

Origins was basically a story of a band of unlikely heroes defeating the Big Bad. It was literally a giant dragon. Being able to kill companions doesn't make a setting dark fantasy. BG was not dark fantasy just because you could literally kill everyone.

In 99% of Origins, there is a perfect happy ending. In most of DA2, no matter your choices, bad stuff happens. Heck that is why a lot of people disliked DA2. They felt they had no control because they couldn't stop all this bad stuff from happening.


*EDIT

In fact the only way to win in DA2 is if you play a sociopath down the pro-templar route.

Modifié par Vandicus, 11 janvier 2014 - 07:42 .

[Grieving Natashina]

Rotward wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Deadmac wrote...
Dragon Age: Origins was a medieval 'dark-fantasy' game.
Dragon Age II removed the 'dark-fantasy' aspects of the first game.

To me DA:O felt like high fantasy(unless people consider LOTR dark fantasy nowadays) and DA 2 was closer to dark fantasy.

It was dark fantasry, as far as video games go. There was nothing dark about DA2, at all. Bright and sunny, clear villains, no serious betrayals or main character deaths, the hero achieved victory, etc. In origins you could die, you could kill many of your companions, you could fail in many quests, and the whole game was literally darker. Not bright and saturated like DA2. 

Um, I have to disagree with the bolded above.  Nothing dark?

• Main character's sibling dies right away
• Companion's brother leaves everyone to die in a part of the Deep Roads.  Serious betrayal there.
• Main character's sibling either dies, becomes a Grey Warden or Mage/Templar
• Blood Magic.  That's always light and shiny, right?
• Hawke's mother dying in a brutal and screwed up way due to a mage serial killer.  You do remember All That Remains, right?
• The Viscount's head being kicked down the throne room steps.  Complete with a dull eyed look.
• True, you cannot kill your companions.  You can give them to slavery though (Fenris and Isabella; qaamek would make sure the later is a mindless slave of the Qun.) Which I think is worse than death.
• A qunari mage lighting himself on fire to restore his honor to the Qun.
• The Dalish Keeper becoming an abomination, which (if you choose the wrong option) can lead to..
• A slaughtering of an entire Dalish Clan (bonus points that it's the Dalish Warden's clan.)
• Companion's brother either being dead or in the nuthouse.
• The whole story of the Engima of Kirkwall.
• Anders and the Chantry.  That was very dark and as someone that lives in Colorado, rather eerie.
• A Templar that turns mages Tranquil to beat and sexually abuse them.
• The story, the feel, the quests...everything about the Bone Pit.
• The entirety of Legacy.
• The RoA and no matter what side you choose, there is a lot of death and blood after that.

Now, Your Mileage May Vary as to how dark you believe some of my examples are.  I know a few of them, like poor Leandra, are almost universally agree upon as a rather dark and creepy story.

Edit: Don't expect BW to give us the option to kill companions ever again.  Not after Leliana's return and the Zevran bug.

On Topic--Didn't know that the Dragon Age series was supposed to be "medieval," rather than fantasy.  Most fantasy is pretty much everything from the 11th to 17th century thrown into a blender.  So the series can't have lost something it never really had in the first place.

Modifié par Starsyn, 11 janvier 2014 - 08:06 .

[Laughing_Man]

I think that it's mostly semantics.
When writing a story, the writer should be concerned only with the quality of the story itself, not with the type of label that someone is going to attach to it later.

[Zatche]

TheRedVipress wrote...

I think that it's mostly semantics.
When writing a story, the writer should be concerned only with the quality of the story itself, not with the type of label that someone is going to attach to it later.

Yup. Dragon Age may have marketed itself as Dark Fantasy (It is right on the CD case), but that was never what drew me to it.

[AlexanderCousland]

This question again.

Medevial Times? As in 1000-1100? I think it's fair to assume SOME people have England in mind when they say "medieval times". So, in our World during that time period England was not a dominant Country, and other Nations with varied Culture's were, in fact, just as or more prominent then England at that time.

THINK ABOUT THE WORLD when you say Medieval times, not just England.

[Cainhurst Crow]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Of course DA is medieval. What nonsense are all this 'it was never medieval'?

It's not an accurate portrayal of medieval times. No it's not. But a magic fantasy world will, of course, never be exactly that.

Then why not just call dragon age a "Magic Fantasy" game and not a medieval dark fantasy?

[Rotward]

Vandicus wrote...

Hawke achieved victory? His entire family gets taken from him in one way or another(and aside from the first sibling to go we actually get to know them). The city of Kirkwall falls no matter what happens. Hawke's story is that of a tragedy. The protagonist fails, and fails, and fails, and the people closest to him die right before his eyes.

Origins was basically a story of a band of unlikely heroes defeating the Big Bad. It was literally a giant dragon. Being able to kill companions doesn't make a setting dark fantasy. BG was not dark fantasy just because you could literally kill everyone.

In 99% of Origins, there is a perfect happy ending. In most of DA2, no matter your choices, bad stuff happens. Heck that is why a lot of people disliked DA2. They felt they had no control because they couldn't stop all this bad stuff from happening.

• Cousland: entire family is killed, forced to drink poison.
• Dwarf noble: betrayed by both siblings, sentenced to death by his father
• Dwarf commoner: Forced to work for a thug, mother's an abusive alchoholic, sister is a prostitute. Bad luck gets the dwarf sentenced to death.
• City Elf: Wedding interupted by human nobles interested in raping the women. You return to find that the nobels have been selling your friends and family to slavery, after becoming the warden
• Dalish Elf: Accidently become infected with the blight while exploring a ruin, kililng a friend and nearly kiling you. Forced to leave your family and friends, and join the shemlen wardens, just to survive. Your first experience of the human world is being betrayed by one of the nobles, who leaves you and all the other soldiers to die.
• Amell: Family was so disgusted with your magic, they sent you to a circle in another country. Been in prison your whole life. Return to find almost everyone you've known as a child dead, betrayed by uldred.
• Surana: Been in prison your whole life. Ostrasized even among mages as an elf. 

Every warden is then betrayed at Ostagar, and spends the rest of the game being hunted by the people you're trying to protect. Even in victory, you lose many people, and towns, possibly including yourself. You then die by age 30, even if you survive the archdemon. 

The warden loses their family, but they go from being a peseant to essentially noble status. They get to live the rest of their life in luxury, although that might be changed in inquisition. Plus, most of the DA:O origins lose their families, or never had a family. 

Modifié par Rotward, 11 janvier 2014 - 07:59 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Zarathiel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Bows were honestly the lightest thing I could complain about. And I don't see how posting a picture of a poorly rendered tommy wiseau is suppose to pawn me.

I believe that dragon age doesn't have medieval roots, more traditional sword and sorcery fantasy roots which happen to involve castles and old world warfare. You can't really call something "medieval" in my opinion if you only have light inspirations for the setting at best, the approximate of cosmetically looking like a renaissance fair and nothing else.

Three genres, Fantasy for stories of the past, Supernatural for stories of the present, Sci-fi for stories of the future, and that's just how it goes.

Cannot unsee.

Honestly, though, I agree with your other points, but claiming nationalism isn't real in the Dragon Age series when it's the entire basis of Loghain's character? Seriously?!

YOU'RE TEARING ME APART ANORA!!!!

And anyway, that point about nationalism isn't one I share, but one that has been beaten into me in previous threads here from other posters, who called me racists for saying that the setting should acknowledge where you come from and have both positive and negative things to throw at you.

I believe it was also the thread I was called a bigot homophobe for wanting characters to have some preference and be able to reject the protaganists sexual advances.

[Grieving Natashina]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Of course DA is medieval. What nonsense are all this 'it was never medieval'?

It's not an accurate portrayal of medieval times. No it's not. But a magic fantasy world will, of course, never be exactly that.

Then why not just call dragon age a "Magic Fantasy" game and not a medieval dark fantasy?

The term "magic fantasy" does not exist and sounds kinda silly IMHO.  The term medieval fantasy does exist and here's the definition:

Medieval fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy that encompasses medieval era high fantasy and sometimes simply represents fictitious versions of historic events. This subgenre is common among role-playing games, text-based roleplaying, and high-fantasy literature. It can include various elements of Middle Ages European culture and society, including a monarchical government, feudal social structure, medieval warfare, and mythical entities common in European folklore.

Examples of literature of this genre included The Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien, The Chronicles of Narnia by C. S. Lewis or A Song of Ice and Fire by George R. R. Martin.

Examples of video games include the Ultima series,[1] Neverwinter Nights,[2]Tactics Ogre and The Elder Scrolls.

Dragon Age fits in just fine.  Nowhere does it say it has to be 100% accurate to any time period (at least not any before about 1700.)  And as far as the "dark" aspect, myself and other posters have made some examples as to why that term fits for the games.

Modifié par Starsyn, 11 janvier 2014 - 08:02 .

[ArlMyEamon]

I feel like the whole shift of feeling in the enviroment between Origins and II has more to do with the setting than a complete artistic overhaul.

Remember that in Origins, you're mostly running around the countrysides of Ferelden. Though I can't say I'm much of a scholar in DA lore, I do know the codex has explained that Ferelden was a slightly backwater sort of young country that has only begun to "civilize" over the last few centuries. This could probably explain the pretty primal sense of "medieval-ness" in Origins that makes it a pretty classic medieval setting.

On the other hand, Kirkwall is old as balls. I mean, it has been there since the Tevinter Imperium was been ruling half the world. There's also the fact that it's a giant city with a lot of income from its location next to the ocean, probably a much larger city in population and size compared to Denerim or even Amaranthine. So logically, it's probably more "advanced" than ferelden is in terms of architecture and technology, etc.

As far as I know, DA:I will be taking place in Orlais. Seeing that Orlais is a really prosperous and powerful nation, I wouldn't really be surprised if everything felt less "medieval". If anything, I'll personally be expecting a Renaissance vibe when playing Inquisition.

I'm not saying that Bioware DIDN'T shift art direction in the production of DAII, It's pretty obvious that they're going for a more "modernized" feel in DA:II and probably Inquisition. It's just that there are other pretty major factors involved too.

[Vandicus]

Rotward wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Hawke achieved victory? His entire family gets taken from him in one way or another(and aside from the first sibling to go we actually get to know them). The city of Kirkwall falls no matter what happens. Hawke's story is that of a tragedy. The protagonist fails, and fails, and fails, and the people closest to him die right before his eyes.

Origins was basically a story of a band of unlikely heroes defeating the Big Bad. It was literally a giant dragon. Being able to kill companions doesn't make a setting dark fantasy. BG was not dark fantasy just because you could literally kill everyone.

In 99% of Origins, there is a perfect happy ending. In most of DA2, no matter your choices, bad stuff happens. Heck that is why a lot of people disliked DA2. They felt they had no control because they couldn't stop all this bad stuff from happening.

• Cousland: entire family is killed, forced to drink poison, all but one of his new friends dies a few weeks later, spends the rest of his game fighting the world.
• Dwarf noble: betrayed by both siblings, sentenced to death by his father
• Dwarf commoner: Forced to work for a thug, mother's an abusive alchoholic, sister is a prostitute. Bad luck gets the dwarf sentenced to death.
• City Elf: Wedding interupted by human nobles interested in raping the women. You return to find that the nobels have been selling your friends and family to slavery, after becoming the warden
• Dalish Elf: Accidently become infected with the blight while exploring a ruin, kililng a friend and nearly kiling you. Forced to leave your family and friends, and join the shemlen wardens, just to survive. Your first experience of the human world is being betrayed by one of the nobles, who leaves you and all the other soldiers to die.
• Amell: Family was so disgusted with your magic, they sent you to a circle in another country. Been in prison your whole life. Return to find almost everyone you've known as a child dead, betrayed by uldred.
• Surana: Been in prison your whole life. Ostrasized even among mages as an elf. 

Every warden is then betrayed at Ostagar, and spends the rest of the game being hunted by the people you're trying to protect. Even in victory, you lose many people, and towns, possibly including yourself. You then die by age 30, even if you survive the archdemon. 

Solely the Origins involve elements of tragedy. 99% of the game, aka the rest of it, involves perfect paragon endings ala Mass Effect. One of the few exceptions would be the Bhelen Harrowmont decision. From the point the Warden gets involved, there is always an optimal exit scenario from which everyone good gets out alive.

DA2's beginning has your entire hometown destroyed by darkspawn. 

So everyone you've ever known outside your immediate family is dead. And then your family dies later. Origin stories are decidedly less tragic than that. However, I don't consider either of those major factors in judging whether they're a dark fantasy game, because the player essentially doesn't experience much of it.


However, every pro-Mage Hawke loses both their family, and their home a second time(and they had spent all that effort to regain the family estate), not to mention failing to save the Viscount, failing to stop the slaughter of Circle Mages, failing to stop innumerable mages from turning to blood magic and being slaughtered, and the list just goes on and on.


Hawke is largely defined by his inability to save people. He is largely unsuccesful at what he sets out to do(unless he's a sociopath who is only out to gain money, in which case you can do that perfectly fine).

The Warden is a hero. Hawke was simply a protagonist.Despite being a main character he did not save the day. In fact in many scenarios he is responsible for the bad things that happen. Like re-opening the Bone Pit so even more workers get slaughtered by dragons. Like bringing Merill to Kirkwall so she can continue her research. Like bringing the evil idol to Kirkwall.

*EDIT

It seems you missed the part where Hawke is exiled from Kirkwall should he be pro-mage. Hawke loses everything as a pro-mage, except possibly one sibling. As a pro-templar you can become viscount, which is arguably a win condition, assuming you feel  nothing about being the cause of the death of many people within Kirkwall, including the previous Viscount.

Sociopathic Pro-Templar Hawke is a winner. Every other Hawke constantly loses.

Modifié par Vandicus, 11 janvier 2014 - 08:09 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Starsyn wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

Of course DA is medieval. What nonsense are all this 'it was never medieval'?

It's not an accurate portrayal of medieval times. No it's not. But a magic fantasy world will, of course, never be exactly that.

Then why not just call dragon age a "Magic Fantasy" game and not a medieval dark fantasy?

The term "magic fantasy" does not exist and sounds kinda silly IMHO. The term medieval fantasy does exist and here's the definition:

So the reason you can't make up a new genre word is what again? I mean, last time I checked, you don't have to just use per-exsisting genres in order to define your story. They're more there to help other people get a vague idea of what your story will be about.

It isn't my fault if my definition of a "Medieval Fantasy" is much more geopolitically and socially focused then your definition is, or that my definition holds accuracy to the period as something important to qualify, and yours does not.

[MisanthropePrime]

Dragon Age is pretty renaissance and, in my opinion, always has been. Ferelden is based off England, though, and England in the renaissance was a mud-encrusted ****-hole and a lot of the developments of the renaissance took a while to make it there, hence why it looked "more" medieval.