175 réponses à ce sujet

[Dutchess]

I'm not sure anymore if DA ever had a "touch" at all. The series is behaving like a confused teenager trying to figure out who he is and where he belongs.

[aries1001]

As far as the sword goes, the medieval swords could be up to 180 cm, please go here:
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Zweihänder

The longswords could be up between 90-110 cm, please go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword

Normally when people talk about medieval times in Europa, they tendt to talk about the 14th-16century (1300-1500) or thereabouts. As I see it, this is the historical period (in Europe) which the DA universe is trying to emulate.

As for daggers, yes, in medieval times, there were long thin daggers normally used as stabbing weapons with very pointy ends. The dagger is a close combat weapon, perfect for the assisanations carried out by the bards of Orlais etc. For dagger info, please go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daggers

Also, in the 1100-1300's, inventers etc, actually invented or knew of exploding powder. It would be used to take down doors (metal or fortified wood doors) in castles etc. They also had catapults etc. And if DA:I were to happen in the 17th century instead of in the 12th or 13th century, wouldn't wee se flintlock pistols and such and muskets?

[Dabrikishaw]

No.

[Medhia Nox]

@aries1001: Well - to be fair, DA has largely ignored the entire history of Earth warfare to suit their story of mage power(which, regrettably for me, often means "fantasy" to most).

[Laughing_Man]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@aries1001: Well - to be fair, DA has largely ignored the entire history of Earth warfare to suit their story of mage power(which, regrettably for me, often means "fantasy" to most).

So you resent the idea of magic users in genral, I get that.

What I don't get is why you claim that magic is at fault for the fact that DA is not quite where it should be on the extremely vague medivalness scale, or why the existanse of gunpowder and firearm should mean that the story automaticaly becomes any less interesting?

[CybAnt1]

Also, in the 1100-1300's, inventers etc, actually invented or knew of exploding powder. It would be used to take down doors (metal or fortified wood doors) in castles etc. They also had catapults etc. And if DA:I were to happen in the 17th century instead of in the 12th or 13th century, wouldn't wee se flintlock pistols and such and muskets?

The Chinese were using gunpowder in the 9th century for pyrotechnics and weaponry (rockets) ... as for introduction into Europe, the Wiki article suggests some debate about that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

Seems that the Mongols introduced it to Europeans in the late 1100s, mostly by using it on them. Apparently, at least according to some scholars, Europeans were already using cannons by 1248. 

Thedas, for now at least, appears to have no "China"/"Asia"/"Orient" or its functional equivalent, but again, it seems the Qunari-Ottomans have it and have cannons (if not personal firearms/guns), and "Blackpowder Promise" shows other Thedans are interested in it. 

[Teddie Sage]

renjility wrote...

I'm not sure anymore if DA ever had a "touch" at all. The series is behaving like a confused teenager trying to figure out who he is and where he belongs.

So is everyone else in the real world.

[Sidney]

The armor isn't medieval. The weapons going back to DAO are ambominations that look like nothing in any era. The architecture isn't medieval other than some of the fortifications. It is a lot more Renaissance in that sense but where it really exists in that imagined middle ages built between Thomas Mallory, JRR Tolkein and Merry Olde Englande.

[Dutchess]

Teddie Sage wrote...

renjility wrote...

I'm not sure anymore if DA ever had a "touch" at all. The series is behaving like a confused teenager trying to figure out who he is and where he belongs.

So is everyone else in the real world.

Perhaps, but luckily most people do not keep changing as much during the process as the DA series appears to be doing.

[Lethys1]

 I find it funny that some people on here criticize "generic medieval," as I can't think of almost any RPG that is in a purely medieval setting without some sort of gimmick or stylization.  I'd love for an RPG to actually take place in what that kind of setting really was like.

[Rotward]

In Exile wrote...

Rotward wrote...
Zevran is the first assasin, but Logain sends people after us in denerim. There are also various traps and bountry hunters, such as those in lothering and denerim.

It's not clear Loghain sent those people, and they're faceless garbage. It's like all the trash mobs Hawke mows down while walking through Kirkwall at night. You're such an engine of death in Bioware games that it's kind of silly to treat enemy encounters as threatening, particularly since you make a throne of skulls out of them.

Logain put up the bounties, so yes, logain sent them after us. Whether they're powerful or not isn't relevant to this discussion. 

In Exile wrote...

DA:A is very different from DA:O in a lot of ways, though. If you save Amaranthine, though, by the end you're a hero. 

Again, relevance please? The mage is still not a hero to the chantry, nor the dwarf commoner a hero to orzammar, nor any warden a hero outside ferelden. At least da:a kept origin's atmosphere. 

renjility wrote...

I'm not sure anymore if DA ever had a "touch" at all. The series is behaving like a confused teenager trying to figure out who he is and where he belongs.

That's the point 

Modifié par Rotward, 12 janvier 2014 - 05:59 .

[In Exile]

Rotward wrote...
Logain put up the bounties, so yes, logain sent them after us. Whether they're powerful or not isn't relevant to this discussion.

Whether they're powerful goes exactly to the feeling of being hunted, ignoring the overwhleming psychic powers that are required for those bounties to exist in the first place. Easily killed cannon fodder does not make the Warden feel threatend - it makes the Warden feel like an all-powerful god curbstomping his/her way to victory.

Again, relevance please? The mage is still not a hero to the chantry, nor the dwarf commoner a hero to orzammar, nor any warden a hero outside ferelden. At least da:a kept origin's atmosphere.  

DA:A didn't. In DA:O, you're worshiped as a hero pretty much everywhere you go if you choose to do the "heroic" thing. In fact, as a mage, the Revered Mother in Lothering straight up thanks you for helping despite being a mage. 

A dwarf - commoner or otherwise - is made a paragon, which is literally turning you into a god. If anything, a dwarf commoner gets the best possible outcome out of all the Wardens. 

Outside of Ferelden no one cares, but so what?

[The Elder King]

I recall that in the epilogue slides it was mentioned that the dwarf commoner became a Paragon, as the dwarf Noble. And considering that the latter's previous Noble status has been eradicated, there isn't much difference between a DN and a DC anyway after the origin.

[Rotward]

In Exile wrote...

Whether they're powerful goes exactly to the feeling of being hunted, ignoring the overwhleming psychic powers that are required for those bounties to exist in the first place. Easily killed cannon fodder does not make the Warden feel threatend - it makes the Warden feel like an all-powerful god curbstomping his/her way to victory.

DA:A didn't. In DA:O, you're worshiped as a hero pretty much everywhere you go if you choose to do the "heroic" thing. In fact, as a mage, the Revered Mother in Lothering straight up thanks you for helping despite being a mage. 

A dwarf - commoner or otherwise - is made a paragon, which is literally turning you into a god. If anything, a dwarf commoner gets the best possible outcome out of all the Wardens. 

Outside of Ferelden no one cares, but so what?

Turn your dfficulty up. I'm not really worried by your feelings, but by the actual circumstances of the game.

As far as the dwarf/mage fair enough. You're still misremembering the game, though. We spent most of the time with people who were suspicious or outright hostile to our presence. We had to do lengthy questlines to earn the trust of the dwarven candidates, we were greeted with weapons by the elves, and by bounty hunters in lothering and denerim. Once we defeat the archdemon, there's no more game. We only get to play as the hero of ferelden in awakeening, where we see that there are still enemies in ferelden. To be universally a hero, the whole world must share the sentiment, else we're just local heros. Especially when we stop a  threat to everyone, like say, the zombie apocolypse blight. 

Modifié par Rotward, 12 janvier 2014 - 06:21 .

[Vilegrim]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

< Most realistic to the medieval setting is DAO >
> Two handed swords taller then the wielder
> Can use longswords with one hand easily
> Daggers the size of arming swords
> Any armor above Medium grade
> Warcry
> Giant Bows taller then the wielder
> Runes
> 4 species all have a common language
> Everyone in thedas has a universal language
> Everyone is educated and literate
> Atheism is acceptable
> Witchcraft is real
> Nationalism isn't real
> Health and Hygiene aren't problems
> Organized service of mail and messaging

This is just stuff off the top of my head that makes it so not the medieval times. So no, I don't think we're losing touch with the medieval aspects, because they were never there in the first place.

one handing longswords was possible, and suggested in some of the manuals, using a shield when full plate is a thing was odd tho

Bows taller than the weilder?  Japanese bows, and the welsh longbow where about the same height if not taller than the guy pulling the string so...

As for armour we get into the 'exactly when does the middle ages end' arguments.

Not a documentry by any stretch, just far less terribad than DA2.

[In Exile]

Rotward wrote...
Turn your dfficulty up. I'm not really worried by your feelings, but by the actual circumstances of the game.

I only play on nightmare. The actual circumstances of the game are a few trash mobs, and that's it. Even the so-called "gating" mob at Orzammar is a joke and a well-developed mage can curbstomp the lot of them just with meatshields around immediately after Lothering on nightmare. 

We spent most of the time with people who were suspicious or outright hostile to our presence.

No, we don't. At Redcliffe, Teagan welcomes us with open arms even w/o Alistair. Same thing with Gregoire: he accepts we're GWs at face value and wants to help, just can't. The only reason we're even allowed in Orzammar is that we're a GW, and the dwarves repeatedly apologize for seeing their society in the midst of a political struggle. Zathrian as a whole speech about how noble the GWs are and how he does want to help, but can't. 

We had to do lengthy questlines to earn the trust of the dwarven candidates, we were greeted with weapons by the elves, and by bounty hunters in lothering and denerim

You didn't have to "earn" their trust. You had to solve their problems so they'd give you their army. The promise of "I totally want to help, but reason [x] stops me from doing it" is the first thing they say. The only hostility you deal with at the Dalish camp is if you're the wrong race, but if you're say a Dalish elf (or even a CE), their attitude is very different. 

[Medhia Nox]

@TheRedVipress: Hmm, no. I am exclusively a mage player in any game that allows "magic" - in ME it would be Biotics.. in Warhammer, a psyker... whatever.

However - to me, magic does not make a story better just because - fireballs! And I believe it can, and often does, make stories very lazy.

Also - I actually wasn't talking about firearms at all. The existence of several Roman devices would make magic users diminish in their bloat of the IP.

I am not against magic - I am against a glut of magic turning an IP into a Michael Bay movie.

Also - you don't have to be so caustic toward my opinion, as it is just that - opinion. Fortunately for those who absolutely need 'splosions and want to be cutters I have no power to alter anything for the DA universe.

[Hiemoth]

Rotward wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Whether they're powerful goes exactly to the feeling of being hunted, ignoring the overwhleming psychic powers that are required for those bounties to exist in the first place. Easily killed cannon fodder does not make the Warden feel threatend - it makes the Warden feel like an all-powerful god curbstomping his/her way to victory.

DA:A didn't. In DA:O, you're worshiped as a hero pretty much everywhere you go if you choose to do the "heroic" thing. In fact, as a mage, the Revered Mother in Lothering straight up thanks you for helping despite being a mage. 

A dwarf - commoner or otherwise - is made a paragon, which is literally turning you into a god. If anything, a dwarf commoner gets the best possible outcome out of all the Wardens. 

Outside of Ferelden no one cares, but so what?

Turn your dfficulty up. I'm not really worried by your feelings, but by the actual circumstances of the game.

As far as the dwarf/mage fair enough. You're still misremembering the game, though. We spent most of the time with people who were suspicious or outright hostile to our presence. We had to do lengthy questlines to earn the trust of the dwarven candidates, we were greeted with weapons by the elves, and by bounty hunters in lothering and denerim. Once we defeat the archdemon, there's no more game. We only get to play as the hero of ferelden in awakeening, where we see that there are still enemies in ferelden. To be universally a hero, the whole world must share the sentiment, else we're just local heros. Especially when we stop a  threat to everyone, like say, the zombie apocolypse blight. 

I actually very recently played the game through again and In Exile is not the one misremembering the game. The only place that actively greets the player with open hostility is Haven, which ends up being wiped out by the player.

You don't go through lengthy questlines to get the trust of the dwarven candidates, you do one task to show that you are not with the opposition and then help someone become king, because before that conflict, which does not actually directly relate to most Wardens, is resolved, the dwarves cannot commit forces.

Of the elves, none of them show hostility towards the Warden because of how s/he speficially is, but rather because they are outsiders. Yet even among them, the Warden has a number of elves asking for his/her help and only the storyteller acts with outright hostility.

Lothering and Redcliffe has almost no one being hostile towards the Warden due who s/he is, with the exception of the peasant group at the beginning. Actually, they have a bunch of people outright giving them a free pass even though they have a bounty on them. In Denerim, the only situation is the trap set for Warden symphatizers, which is a single battle. Otherwise, no one really gives a damn.

Tower? Only reaction from the Templars if the Warden is a mage, even then after the task everyone is praising the Warden.

The enemies in Awakening, again, has nothing to do with who the Warden speficially is, but rather a power struggle within the area. There is no personal animosity there.

I honestly do not understand your central argument here, as DAO is as basic a hero's journey as it can get. That is not a negative for a game, it is simply what it is. The Warden is someone who overcomes everything and is praised by almost everyone at the end of the game if you chose the heroic path. Hawke's story is much tragic, by intention of the writers, and his/her story does involve much more personal adversity. That is not a slam or a praise on either game, that is simply the stories being told.

And on a final note, that raising of the difficulty level comment is kind of non-sensical, because that has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

[aries1001]

I just wanted to point out that longsword could indeed be the size of a man or half the size of a man in the 12th or 14th century; longbows could as well be 180 cm, the size of a (nordic) man. And some men were actually lower than the swords or bows they wielded/used. As for magic, arthur c. clarke once said that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." source: [url] http://en.wikipedia....ke's_three_laws[/] To the Fereldens etc. in the DA universe, the cannons that is used by the Quanari might seem like magic or something like that.

And yes, I'm aware that in Ferelden there is magic, but magic is not everywhere; The Veil hinders that. A few children are born with magic abilities and capabilities; they are (brutally) talenm away from their families, sometimes at birth, sometimes when they're as young as 4-5 or maybe 6 or 7 years of age. And magic in the DA universe is some kind of natural magic where mages learn how to create spells out of the molecules (as I see it) which naturally are in the air around them.

[Laughing_Man]

@ Medhia Nox

I was not really trying to antagonise, my response was meant to be read in a different tone.

I meant what I said very literaly, and I don't see how the existanse of any kind of Roman "technological" devices (or even modern technology to some extent) makes magic any less fantastic interesting and influencial.
(I don't really understand how you view magic, and why you seem to both like it and have a grudge against it at the same time. If you'd like, I'll be happy to discuss it in PM, but that's not the issue here.)

That said, my main point was regarding this lengthy and rather pointless discussion (in my opinion): Why should the level of technology matter? Can't we simply judge the story for its merits or failures? Trying to force every stroy into a neat little category, seems rather pointless to me, either you enjoy the story, or you don't.

[Mark of the Dragon]

No I think it still feels medieval. I mean the first one did have a "grittier" feel to it but that did not necessarily make it feel medieval. DAI will be interesting because of Orlais fashion sense. I am curious how that fancy lifestyle will fit into the atmosphere.

However as long as the game gives me dark themes, magic, and swordplay I will be happy. I am happy they are making the game and environments more distinct and colorful.

[Laughing_Man]

aries1001 wrote...

I just wanted to point out that longsword could indeed be the size of a man or half the size of a man in the 12th or 14th century; longbows could as well be 180 cm, the size of a (nordic) man. And some men were actually lower than the swords or bows they wielded/used. As for magic, arthur c. clarke once said that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." source: [url] http://en.wikipedia....ke's_three_laws[/] To the Fereldens etc. in the DA universe, the cannons that is used by the Quanari might seem like magic or something like that.

And yes, I'm aware that in Ferelden there is magic, but magic is not everywhere; The Veil hinders that. A few children are born with magic abilities and capabilities; they are (brutally) talenm away from their families, sometimes at birth, sometimes when they're as young as 4-5 or maybe 6 or 7 years of age. And magic in the DA universe is some kind of natural magic where mages learn how to create spells out of the molecules (as I see it) which naturally are in the air around them.

A sword as tall as a man is not under the "Longsword" category anymore, but rather under polearm.
(read the Zwihander link you provided)

Personally, I think that a sword of this length would be alot less effective than both a longsword and an actual polearm.

Regarding magic, I don't really see your point, and forcing science into it is just making it look weirder, not better.

[AlanC9]

Rotward wrote...
 Turn your dfficulty up. I'm not really worried by your feelings, but by the actual circumstances of the game.

There's a difficulty setting that makes DA:O difficult?

Hiemoth handled the substance. I'm just here for the snark.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 janvier 2014 - 08:45 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Vilegrim wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

< Most realistic to the medieval setting is DAO >
> Two handed swords taller then the wielder
> Can use longswords with one hand easily
> Daggers the size of arming swords
> Any armor above Medium grade
> Warcry
> Giant Bows taller then the wielder
> Runes
> 4 species all have a common language
> Everyone in thedas has a universal language
> Everyone is educated and literate
> Atheism is acceptable
> Witchcraft is real
> Nationalism isn't real
> Health and Hygiene aren't problems
> Organized service of mail and messaging

This is just stuff off the top of my head that makes it so not the medieval times. So no, I don't think we're losing touch with the medieval aspects, because they were never there in the first place.

one handing longswords was possible, and suggested in some of the manuals, using a shield when full plate is a thing was odd tho

Bows taller than the weilder?  Japanese bows, and the welsh longbow where about the same height if not taller than the guy pulling the string so...

As for armour we get into the 'exactly when does the middle ages end' arguments.

Not a documentry by any stretch, just far less terribad than DA2.

Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's something you should do. Using a shield and an arming sword would probably be a lot wiser then using a longsword and shield. Longswords were a good balance between the massively over the top swords like the claymore or zweighandler (sorry for butchering that spelling), and the usual arming sword.

And one people developing one style of bow that worked for them and their diminutive height doesn't really excuse the bulbous deisgns of the bows in dragon age. Though considering they couldn't even animate strings for the bows, maybe I'm just asking too much of them in that field.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 13 janvier 2014 - 04:01 .

[Mr.House]

Nope.