175 réponses à ce sujet

[Rotward]

Hiemoth wrote...

I actually very recently played the game through again and In Exile is not the one misremembering the game. The only place that actively greets the player with open hostility is Haven, which ends up being wiped out by the player.

I honestly do not understand your central argument here, as DAO is as basic a hero's journey as it can get. That is not a negative for a game, it is simply what it is. The Warden is someone who overcomes everything and is praised by almost everyone at the end of the game if you chose the heroic path. Hawke's story is much tragic, by intention of the writers, and his/her story does involve much more personal adversity. .

I just played origins, too, and I'm not talking about personal animosity. The point I've been trying to make, though I've been seriously sidetracked, is that the warden isn't a knight in shining armor who saves the princess and lives happily ever after. You have enemies, whether they be personal, political, or circumstantial, throughout the game. You spend the whole game earning allies, but they are not your allies from the start, and you still have enemies at the end. The warden is no more trusted than the champion of kirkwall.

• You have to pick a king before meeting either candidate. They're so distrustful of you that they won't even meet you in person. The questline requires you to promote them repeatedly, then you meet them, and they require you to promote them further before they'll commit men to your cause.
• The elves meet you with hostility when you first show up, and remain distrustful because you're a shemlen (if you are human). Some will accept your help if you go to them, but they are hesitant at first. Those who have no quests complain about recieving help from, "your kind."
• Lothering had two encounters, one with soldiers, and one with townsfolk, both of whom are after your bounty.
• Redcliff had no enemies that I remember, but I never claimed otherwise
• Templars attack you if you're a blood mage, even if you used that magic to save wynne, the first enchanter, cullen, and the rest.
• Awakening revolved around people who supported howe and logain remaining your enemy. The darkspawn who instigated the blight is more trusting of you than the people you saved from the blight.
• If In Exile is too arrogant to realize that a weak enemy is still your enemy, I can't fix that.

As I said, I'm not talking about personal animosity: It's not like cassandra, or any chantry outside of kirkwall, had a personal reason to distrust hawk. Yet they distrusted him or her because of the political situation. Most of the people that considered hawk an enemy, who lived in kirkwall, are dead. That holds true for the warden as well. You kill most of your enemies within ferelden, and your stature is lost beyond the border.

The warden's personal conflicts were fewer, but still significant, and they were fewer as a byproduct ofcharacter creation. It makes no sense for the Aeducan and Cousland to encounter the same adversities, but they do go through the same game, thus there are fewer personal conflicts per character. 

Modifié par Rotward, 12 janvier 2014 - 10:05 .

[Hiemoth]

Rotward wrote...

Hiemoth wrote...

I actually very recently played the game through again and In Exile is not the one misremembering the game. The only place that actively greets the player with open hostility is Haven, which ends up being wiped out by the player.

I honestly do not understand your central argument here, as DAO is as basic a hero's journey as it can get. That is not a negative for a game, it is simply what it is. The Warden is someone who overcomes everything and is praised by almost everyone at the end of the game if you chose the heroic path. Hawke's story is much tragic, by intention of the writers, and his/her story does involve much more personal adversity. .

I just played origins, too, and I'm not talking about personal animosity. The point I've been trying to make, though I've been seriously sidetracked, is that the warden isn't a knight in shining armor who saves the princess and lives happily ever after. You have enemies, whether they be personal, political, or circumstantial, throughout the game. You spend the whole game earning allies, but they are not your allies from the start, and you still have enemies at the end. The warden is no more trusted than the champion of kirkwall.

• You have to pick a king before meeting either candidate. They're so distrustful of you that they won't even meet you in person. The questline requires you to promote them repeatedly, then you meet them, and they require you to promote them further before they'll commit men to your cause.
• The elves meet you with hostility when you first show up, and remain distrustful because you're a shemlen (if you are human). Some will accept your help if you go to them, but they are hesitant at first. Those who have no quests complain about recieving help from, "your kind."
• Lothering had two encounters, one with soldiers, and one with townsfolk, both of whom are after your bounty.
• Redcliff had no enemies that I remember, but I never claimed otherwise
• Templars attack you if you're a blood mage, even if you used that magic to save wynne, the first enchanter, cullen, and the rest.
• Awakening revolved around people who supported howe and logain remaining your enemy. The darkspawn who instigated the blight is more trusting of you than the people you saved from the blight.
• If In Exile is too arrogant to realize that a weak enemy is still your enemy, I can't fix that.

As I said, I'm not talking about personal animosity: It's not like cassandra, or any chantry outside of kirkwall, had a personal reason to distrust hawk. Yet they distrusted him or her because of the political situation. Most of the people that considered hawk an enemy, who lived in kirkwall, are dead. That holds true for the warden as well. You kill most of your enemies within ferelden, and your stature is lost beyond the border.

The warden's personal conflicts were fewer, but still significant, and they were fewer as a byproduct ofcharacter creation. It makes no sense for the Aeducan and Cousland to encounter the same adversities, but they do go through the same game, thus there are fewer personal conflicts per character. 

I will partially apologize right here at the beginning of the response, as I am not completely certain what is your central point. What is it that you wish to assert here. That may seem somewhat odd, as you did just write it in your previous response, but the thing is I kind of do not understand the difference you see.

Most video games have adversity in them. By the logic your presenting, Super Mario faced adversity, as did Pacman as the ghosts tried to stop him from eating the coins. The white knight analogue you used relies partially on the adversity. The white knight in the story overcomes obstacles, or adversity, in order to save the princess. The point of the white knight analogue is that after overcoming that adversity, everything is perfect and better than it was before him. Which is the case in the most situations in DAO if one chooses so, with the possible exception of dwarven situation.

The Tower can be left to the mages after defeating the demons and will prosper. The elves will prosper under the new leadership. Everyone in Redcliffe can be saved. In Awakening any sources of rebellion are crushed. The Carta is crippled. Darkspawn pushed back in the Deep Roads. Every enemy is killed and I do not honestly know what are these enemies of the Warden that remain after the game are. Everyone rejoices at his/her name and the fact that someone in another country doesn't know it is completely besides the point here. Yes, there are some initial adversities in the game, which is the classical beginning of the heroes journey, yet at the end of the game almost all of them can be addressed.

It is important to again stress that none of this is to admonish DAO. It is what it is and tells the story it was supposed to tell. But again, what is your central argument here? Are you arguing that the Warden faced more personal adversity than Hawke? Is it that the Warden just faced adversity, which is kind of a general thing in video games?

And as a last note, Cassandra was specifically interested in Hawke. She wasn't asking Varric to tell about Kirkwall, she wanted to hear about Hawke. And yes, few of the forces Hawke dealt with were initially directed towards her, yet s/he lost much more of those around her those forces than the Warden did. That was story being told in DA2, which was by intent a more tragic tale.

[The Baconer]

Rotward wrote...

• Templars attack you if you're a blood mage, even if you used that magic to save wynne, the first enchanter, cullen, and the rest. 

Wasn't that cut from the final game?

[Zatche]

The Baconer wrote...

Rotward wrote...

• Templars attack you if you're a blood mage, even if you used that magic to save wynne, the first enchanter, cullen, and the rest. 

Wasn't that cut from the final game?

Yup

[Zatche]

Rotward wrote...
I just played origins, too, and I'm not talking about personal animosity. The point I've been trying to make, though I've been seriously sidetracked, is that the warden isn't a knight in shining armor who saves the princess and lives happily ever after. You have enemies, whether they be personal, political, or circumstantial, throughout the game. You spend the whole game earning allies, but they are not your allies from the start, and you still have enemies at the end. The warden is no more trusted than the champion of kirkwall.

I'm not talking about personal animosity: It's not like cassandra, or any chantry outside of kirkwall, had a personal reason to distrust hawk. Yet they distrusted him or her because of the political situation. Most of the people that considered hawk an enemy, who lived in kirkwall, are dead. That holds true for the warden as well. You kill most of your enemies within ferelden, and your stature is lost beyond the border.

The warden's personal conflicts were fewer, but still significant, and they were fewer as a byproduct ofcharacter creation. It makes no sense for the Aeducan and Cousland to encounter the same adversities, but they do go through the same game, thus there are fewer personal conflicts per character. 

I said before that Warden was praised universally. I was using that as a relative term. Ferelden, with some exceptions, celebrated the Warden for defeating the Blight. There was a ceremony and everything. There was no princess to save, but the Warden pretty much was a "knight in shining armor." There may not be a "happily ever after," but making sacrifices to save the world is heroic, and it is glorified in DAO. The game followed a traditional "overcome tragedy and adversity in order to defeat evil" story. Despite all the "dark" content, the main narrative arch was an optimistic one. (Even if some of the side plots were not).

DA2, on the other hand, followed a tragic arch. Sure Hawke rose to power, gained nobility, and became "Champion," but despite all that, he/she is unable to save Kirkwall from plunging into chaos, and innocent people die over a "freedom vs security" debate. Defeating Meredith wasn't a rosy end to a story.

But, like Heimoth said, neither of these types of stories are inherently better or worse than the other. It is what it is. Dark doesn't mean better. It just means dark.

Modifié par Zatche, 13 janvier 2014 - 03:50 .

[spinachdiaper]

Dragon Age has been shifting to appeal to a larger market audience that's why it's more looking Fableish and opting to go with the Witcher style were all choices have impact on everything route and it's going the rpg final fantasy homogenizing color buy numbers route

[CroGamer002]

Zarathiel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

< Most realistic to the medieval setting is DAO >
> Two handed swords taller then the wielder
> Can use longswords with one hand easily
> Daggers the size of arming swords
> Any armor above Medium grade
> Warcry
> Giant Bows taller then the wielder
> Runes
> 4 species all have a common language
> Everyone in thedas has a universal language
> Everyone is educated and literate
> Atheism is acceptable
> Witchcraft is real
> Nationalism isn't real
> Health and Hygiene aren't problems
> Organized service of mail and messaging

This is just stuff off the top of my head that makes it so not the medieval times. So no, I don't think we're losing touch with the medieval aspects, because they were never there in the first place.

And best part?

Nationalism started in 18th century.

Definatelly not a Medieval thing.

Modifié par Mesina2, 13 janvier 2014 - 01:26 .

[CroGamer002]

Zatche wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Rotward wrote...

• Templars attack you if you're a blood mage, even if you used that magic to save wynne, the first enchanter, cullen, and the rest. 

Wasn't that cut from the final game?

Yup

A shame, but that would break the game as you wouldn't get either Templar nor Circle of Mages support.

[Rotward]

The Baconer wrote...

Rotward wrote...
Templars attack you if you're a blood mage, even if you used that magic to save wynne, the first enchanter, cullen, and the rest. 

Wasn't that cut from the final game?

I've seen it in videos, I've not encountered it myself. I did the tower before going to redcliff on my mage playthrough, so I didn't have blood magic yet. 

Modifié par Rotward, 13 janvier 2014 - 08:23 .

[Rotward]

Hiemoth wrote...

I am not completely certain what is your central point. What is it that you wish to assert here. 

My point is that origins is as dark or darker than da2. 

Hawke's considered tragic because they lose their family, but so does the Warden. Hawke is considered less heroic because Cassandra see's Hawke as a villain in the into. Cassandra isn't in Kirkwall, her view is that of outsiders. The Warden is no more a hero outside Ferelden than the Champion is a hero outside Kirkwall. 

The Warden faces fewer personal conflicts throughout Origins, that's true, but that's a result of the character creator. Every backstory plays through the same game, but each start is radically different. The backstories in Origins cannot face the same conflicts, so the end result is that each backstory faces fewer conflicts than Hawke. 

Finally, most of the tragic moments in Hawkes life were not, in fact, personal. The darkspawn didn't kill hawke's sibling(s) for revenge, they just followed their nature. The templars didn't take the other sibling to get at hawke, they just did their job. Hawkes mother was killed for some twisted idea of love, not to hurt hawke. If the bad guys winning is tragic, then how is the warden not tragic? Both the Warden and Hawke lose often, but they both end the game victorious. 

I'm not saying that you can't be a white knight in Origins. I'm saying that you don't have to be, and it's worth noting that you can be a white knight in DA2 as well. That said, you can be a raging jackass in both games. You can support the werewolves, give the dwarves access to forbidden technology, deal with the demon at redcliff, deal with the darkspawn that started the blight, allow the tevinter mage to continue taking slaves, kill wynne, corrupt the ashes, sell fenris back into slavery, support the destruction of the chantry, support Petrice, take a slave yourself, kill slaves, support criminals, and I could go on. 

[Eromenos]

Has Dragon Age lost it's medieval touch?

Yes. And that is a very good thing. I hated most of DAO's depressing & insulating atmospheres. Is it "world-building" at this point if it can be mostly characterized as: uglies, squalor, blood & cockney? Not to mention DAO's fetishizing have-it-both-ways sexism. There are many better ways to kick off a decent fantasy "western RPG."

Modifié par Eromenos, 13 janvier 2014 - 09:03 .

[Zatche]

Rotward wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Rotward wrote...
Templars attack you if you're a blood mage, even if you used that magic to save wynne, the first enchanter, cullen, and the rest. 

Wasn't that cut from the final game?

I've seen it in videos, I've not encountered it myself. I did the tower before going to redcliff on my mage playthrough, so I didn't have blood magic yet. 

It was cut from the game, but never removed from the disc. It's only accessible through a mod, as the description on your video points out.

[Zatche]

Rotward wrote...
 My point is that origins is as dark or darker than da2.

Origins certainly did a better job in conveying a darker tone/atmosphere. The amount of dark content is probably about the same (It's a rather difficult thing to quantify), but DA2 had a more pessimistic story arc. I didn't feel like I won a huge victory after defeating Meredith. Hawke either killed some innocent mages along with the guilty ones or protected some guilty ones along with the innocent. Kirkwall is in chaos and the events Hawke is involved in lead to the Mage-Templar war.

Finally, most of the tragic moments in Hawkes life were not, in fact, personal. The darkspawn didn't kill hawke's sibling(s) for revenge, they just followed their nature. The templars didn't take the other sibling to get at hawke, they just did their job. Hawkes mother was killed for some twisted idea of love, not to hurt hawke.

So, because the motivations of the antagonists weren't personal, the tragic moment is less dark? I don't follow.

If the bad guys winning is tragic, then how is the warden not tragic?

The origin is tragic, but the warden rises above it and saves the world from an evil force. Hence my point about an optimistic narrative arc.

Modifié par Zatche, 14 janvier 2014 - 12:48 .

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Honestly i dont care Theadas is a good world and i hope it progresses forwards.

[leaguer of one]

Zatche wrote...

Rotward wrote...
 My point is that origins is as dark or darker than da2.

Origins certainly did a better job in conveying a darker tone/atmosphere. The amount of dark content is probably about the same (It's a rather difficult thing to quantify), but DA2 had a more pessimistic story arc. I didn't feel like I won a huge victory after defeating Meredith. Hawke either killed some innocent mages along with the guilty ones or protected some guilty ones along with the innocent. Kirkwall is in chaos and the events Hawke is involved in lead to the Mage-Templar war.

If you side with the Templars you do have the option to save who you can.

[SgtSteel91]

leaguer of one wrote...]

If you side with the Templars you do have the option to save who you can.

Erm, IMO there are probably more innocent mages than three mages plus Bethany.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 14 janvier 2014 - 04:24 .

[Rotward]

Zatche wrote...
So, because the motivations of the antagonists weren't personal, the tragic moment is less dark? I don't follow.

No, that was more directed at what's-his-name's points about personal animosity. Hawk had personal enemies, sure, but those weren't the ones killing his family. 

[leaguer of one]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...]

If you side with the Templars you do have the option to save who you can.

Erm, IMO there are probably more innocent mages than three mages plus Bethany.

Then why am I being attacked by so may blood mages and demons when I side with the mages?

Ironicly, you are doing more damage to the mages siding with them then siding with the templars, being that they don't even have a way out but to fight if you side with the mages.

[SgtSteel91]

leaguer of one wrote...

Then why am I being attacked by so may blood mages and demons when I side with the mages?

Ironicly, you are doing more damage to the mages siding with them then siding with the templars, being that they don't even have a way out but to fight if you side with the mages.

Are you being attacked by Blood Mages and Demons when siding with the Templars?

Well if Varric's ending narration is to be believed then some did find a way out since "[Hawke] had defended the Mages against a brutal injustice, and many lived to tell the tale."

And I don't really see how one helps Mages by helping the Templars kill all the Mages during a Right of Annulment.

Anayway, it doesn't matter to me. They way I RP Hawke his sister was part of the Circle about to slaughtered and there was no way in hell he was going to help or let the Templars kill his sister, nor was he going to waste his breath convicing them to spare only Bethany from death or Tranquility.

But back on topic, I don't know if Dragon Age lost it's Medieval touch but at least I like where they are going with the art style for Inquisition.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:39 .

[CroGamer002]

Eromenos wrote...

Has Dragon Age lost it's medieval touch?

Yes. And that is a very good thing. I hated most of DAO's depressing & insulating atmospheres. Is it "world-building" at this point if it can be mostly characterized as: uglies, squalor, blood & cockney? Not to mention DAO's fetishizing have-it-both-ways sexism. There are many better ways to kick off a decent fantasy "western RPG."

You're mixing medieval setting with uninspired and dull art design DA:O had.

[Keeper of Light]

Never.

[coldflame]

If by medieval touch you mean those hideous looking rags Bioware called mage robes in DA:O then I am happy with Dragon age losing its medieval touch.

[chuckwells62]

I also felt like DA:O was more in the high fantasy mold than medieval, and would prefer that Inquisition skew more that way in tone. However I do agree with the original poster comment that some of the weapons in DA2 were more gargantuan in size than was necessary. I liked many of the armors in the sequel as well.

Modifié par chuckwells62, 14 janvier 2014 - 12:30 .

[Rotward]

tcgtqu wrote...

If by medieval touch you mean those hideous looking rags Bioware called mage robes in DA:O then I am happy with Dragon age losing its medieval touch.

Well considering robes and mages have nothing to do with medevil... no, that's not what we're refering to. 

[Keeper of Light]

Br3ad wrote...

People walked around in leather straps during medieval times, for armor. Just saying. As to the massive weapons and armor, those were in DA:O as well. As to the other points, game mechanics. So...no. Not really.

Me no understand. Me complain and whine, no like rational thinking. Make brain hurt. Me go home now. *climbs up a tree*

Modifié par Darksiders2, 15 janvier 2014 - 04:53 .