692 réponses à ce sujet

[Roux72]

I would just like to say thank you to Bioware for making a great series. This is not a hate thread, I like you guys. Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2, and most of Mass Effect 3 is truly a fantastic work of art. I don't really blame Bioware at all, I think they make awesome games that I intened to keep purchasing and complaining.

I think, now that its 2014, there is time to look at the ME3 ending without being in the heat of emotions and enganging in vitriolic arguments and slander.

So here's my take. I think the thing that was the worst was the response to the ending by Bioware. It does not need more "clarification." If your initial response to something after recieving criticism is to throw up a shield such as "artistic integrity" or to jump to "let me clarify," there is a good chance (albeit just a chance, this is not a totalizing statement) that what you created was simply not very good. If Bioware had owned the endings (and no hiding behind artistic integrity does not in any way shape or form constitute owning up to a mistake), I could at least have respected them for that. If they had come out and said, "We're sorry, EA was on our backs for a holiday release, we had to retcon the ending, and we were rushed" - I could have respected them for being honest. But responging to the hordes of angry fans (and yes they are hordes, this "vocal minority" chant is simply untrue) by saying "we don't understand the ending" or, once more, hiding behind artistic integrity, does not serve anyone. It doesn't add to a functional company/consumer dialogue and merely results in coming across as patronising, one of the worst things a company can be when communicating to its consumer base, I should add.

Great. Now that's out of the way. The ending itself.

The FALSE assumption is that the problems with the ending revolve around "not getting closure" or that "its too dark" or "why can't we see Shepard sitting on a beach with Garrus." Those are incredibly superficial complaints that aren't actually to do with why the ending (yes singular), was just simply bad. The real reason it was bad is because the Mass Effect series is about choice. Choice between Paragon vs. Renegade, choice between who you romance, choice in your missions, choosing outcomes that affect that world on a galactic scale.

On this issue of choice, I would like to discuss the war asset rating system. This was something that had so much potential for the ending, but unfortunately resulted in having almost no affect on the ending. I should've seen the merc fleets I gathered from Aria, the Geth fleets I saved on Rannoch, the Volus bombing fleets I aquired from the little rotund fellow on the Citadel, etc, etc. What I see in the ending is the same cinamtic scene no matter which war assets I invested the time in getting all resulting in the same three endings. In Mass Effect 2, on the contrary, the loyalty missions and how I deployed my squad had real consqeunces on who died and whoI got to see again in Mass Effect 3.

The refusal ending, added in the extended cut DLC was a massive improvement, and I really appreciate Bioware adding that in. Its still not great, and to be honest the only way the ending can be fixed is with a massive retcon (which will never happen). The extended cut was a nice assortment of sprinkles on the ice cream. But if the ice cream has some poop in it, the sprinkles can only go so far. Its still ice cream with poop in it.

Perhaps the oddest complaint issued against those that criticise the ending is that they're just being "whiny" or "entitled." This is simply not true, and a ridiculous accusation. If I invest both my time and money into this franchise, the company that produces for the franchise has an implied contract to give me a high quality product. I stress implied. Does Bioware HAVE to give me a high quality product? No, not at all. But they should, if they want to keep my consumer loyalty. After all I've only got so much money and games like Destiny from Bungie or Elder Scrolls Online are looking mighty tempting. I am not being entitled when I expect top quality products from Bioware, it is my right earned through my investment of money and time. There is a distinct and relevant difference there. I cannot stress this enough, demanding a better ending is not entitlement (though at this point its not going to happen anyway).

These are just my thoughts. Let me know if I'm wrong. Let me know if I am the biggest idiot in all of council space. Again I reiterate, I do not hate Bioware, quite the opposite. I just want them to level with the consumer, own up to their mistakes and make sure that wherever the Mass Effect universe takes us from here does not fall into this trap again.

[MrMrPendragon]

I've already made peace with ME3.

It's still the best game in the trilogy for me just because of how emotionally invested I got when I played it.

I admit, I wanted the, as you say, "superficial" ending where Shepard watches the sunset with his LI, just because of how big of a role the supporting characters had in the trilogy.

[christrek1982]

A grate post I agree with most of what you say however the fate of Shepard is important to a lot of people and having one ending where shepard live and we the player get to see that clearly also ties into choice macanic as well as the fact that it's a game and being able to acheve one ending or another is all part of the challenge/Reward dynamic that ME3 is missing as all the ending are the same (for the most part)

[Rusty Sandusky]

Smells of rotten horse in this thread.

[NeonFlux117]

The endings-(at face value interpretation), are lore breaking, silly, poorly executed and lacking in all major areas of otherwise decent storytelling.

They suck cause they suck. Nuff said. But the series was still amazing and ME3 was still a great game. ME1 and ME2 are masterpieces. Always were. Always will be.

[dreamgazer]

time for an objective look

Riiiiiight.

[Br3admax]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The endings-(at face value interpretation), are lore breaking, silly, poorly executed and lacking in all major areas of otherwise decent storytelling.

They suck cause they suck.

As did the entire series. Let's not make the ending feel like the redheaded stepchild.

Nuff said. But the series was still amazing and ME3 was still a great game. ME1 and ME2 are masterpieces. Always were. Always will be.

Oooooookay. Don't know about that. ME3's writing was just about as good as ME and ME2's, especially ME2's "...a human Reaper. BADUMDUMDUDMDUDMDUDMDUDMDUDMDUDMDUUUUUMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!Shepardinawhisper....!!!!!!!!!!!"

I like ME, more than a lot of other games, but the writing has been consistantly...this throughout. 

[Roux72]

dreamgazer wrote...

time for an objective look

Riiiiiight.

I would argue most of what I said is true. I think it was pretty objective... Though my opinion of objective could simple my subjective interpration of what objectiity means... Ow. My head hurts.

No in all honesty I tried to be fair. I praised Bioware where they deserved to be praised and I called them out where they desrved to be called out. I would say that is objective. Though you could make a philosophical case that there is no such thing as objectviity since what we define as objective could be based on our own subjective life experiences. I wouldn't mind having that discussion.

When I say objective, I mean from what I know and understand, what is a fair analysis of the ending and the consumer relation to Bioware. Not "balanced"... For balanced is a misleading word, being balanced isn't necessarily fair. It is true I may have called Bioware out more than I praised them, but that is what I deem to be objectively fair. Or at least what I deem to be objective, in my subjective opinion.

[Roux72]

Br3ad wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The endings-(at face value interpretation), are lore breaking, silly, poorly executed and lacking in all major areas of otherwise decent storytelling.

They suck cause they suck.

As did the entire series. Let's not make the ending feel like the redheaded stepchild.

Nuff said. But the series was still amazing and ME3 was still a great game. ME1 and ME2 are masterpieces. Always were. Always will be.

Oooooookay. Don't know about that. ME3's writing was just about as good as ME and ME2's, especially ME2's "...a human Reaper. BADUMDUMDUDMDUDMDUDMDUDMDUDMDUDMDUUUUUMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!Shepardinawhisper....!!!!!!!!!!!"

I like ME, more than a lot of other games, but the writing has been consistantly...this throughout. 

I would say that the human reaper actually made narrative sense in ME2... Its why the collectors were harvesting human DNA and abducting all those colonists and it actally fits well into the larger reaper plot... In ME3 they abandoned the original plot set out by Drew Karpyshyn and retconned in this "starchild" who for the sake of not getting angry I won't even talk about here. So know the writing was not at all consistent. And it shows pretty blatantly in ME3's ending.

[dreamgazer]

Its still ice cream with poop in it.

Yeah, that's totally objective.

[AlanC9]

Threads that bill themselves as being objective do tend to crash and burn quickly around here. Definitions aside, it's not effective as rhetoric.

[JamesFaith]

EntropicAngel wrote...

And enough of this "Bioware should give me what I want" BS. Bioware is/are creator(s). It's their job to build the product they want to make, and it's your job as a consumer to decide if you want to partake or not.

The reason that people claimed that critics were "entitled" is because they were: the Retake ME movement is noted as having demanded, I quote, DEMANDED, better endings. That's bullscat, in every sense of the word. No one but Bioware and their owners has any say over what Bioware does.

You know what p*sses me off? Criterion Games destroying the NFS franchise by taking two beloved old games and making "reboots" that were nothing like the originals, and more like Burnout clones. But you know what I'm not arrogant enough to do? DEMAND, I quote, DEMAND, that EA change their ways. I can think poorly of them all I want, but it's their prerogative to do what they want with the franchise.

Exactly this.

I have similar problem when Gothic 4: Arcania was created.

Different studio stripped game from everything what makes series unique and created boring hack-and-slash abomination in nice graphic.

Did I critize it? Yes.
Did I demand change? No.

I simply don't buy datadisk, never play Arcania again and stick to original trilogy. End of story.

[dreamgazer]

Ugh, Gothic 4. Thanks for reminding me, James.

[Cainhurst Crow]

> Objective look
> Uses own perspective in analysis

Wat?

[Roux72]

EntropicAngel wrote...

How does "artistic integrity" not count as owning up to the ending?

Sh*t like this is why I've kept away from the ME boards for one-and-a-half years. You're still complaining.

Your first point: Do you realize that ME3 was DELAYED several months? it came out in March of 2012. EA was not on their backs. Bioware made the ending Bioware wanted to make. Deal with it.


The problem most people, including you, don't understand, is that Mass Effect was always, always, always, always, always, always, always--ahem. ALWAYS a cinematic game with a linear plot. No choice in Mass Effect had significant impact, and further none of them had significant impact into ME2. Expecting there to be significant impact in ME3 was at best incorrect, and at worst deliberately hype-building.

Amusingly enough, ME3 DOES have the highest amount of "consequence" material (read: Tuchanka genophage cure, Geth-Quarian peace). However, it wasn't in the ending, because Mass Effect never gave you choice on how you tackled the Reapers.

Never.


And enough of this "Bioware should give me what I want" BS. Bioware is/are creator(s). It's their job to build the product they want to make, and it's your job as a consumer to decide if you want to partake or not.

The reason that people claimed that critics were "entitled" is because they were: the Retake ME movement is noted as having demanded, I quote, DEMANDED, better endings. That's bullscat, in every sense of the word. No one but Bioware and their owners has any say over what Bioware does.

You know what p*sses me off? Criterion Games destroying the NFS franchise by taking two beloved old games and making "reboots" that were nothing like the originals, and more like Burnout clones. But you know what I'm not arrogant enough to do? DEMAND, I quote, DEMAND, that EA change their ways. I can think poorly of them all I want, but it's their prerogative to do what they want with the franchise.

I'd be more than happy to discuss the actual ending sometime, but boy does the complaining get on my nerves. Wow.

I agree with you that Tuchanka was an amazing and powerful part of the game. But why couldn't the ending be just as powerful and moving? I reiterate it is not being entitled when time and money have been invested. I'm also not entirely sure they this was the ending they wanted, Drew Karpyshyn did come out say it was changed fromt he original plot and whether or not that would've been better is a purely acdemic discussion since there's no way to truly know.

Demanding... Sure that might be going to far. And it this is the ending they wanted and I'm wrong about that. Well that may be the case, it doesn't make the ending any better. It just leaves me more confused as to why they would've wanted it.

[MrMrPendragon]

"You just have to make the best of what you have"

This was the mentality I embraced every time I faced ME3's ending. The only reason why I didn't totally forget about ME3 is because of the characters, EC, and Citadel. Those are the things that saved this game.

Sure you can write here how would you have liked the ending, but demanding change, as in actually doing something about it - something beyond voicing it -  is wrong and kind of insulting to the developers.

EDIT: OP, IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO EDIT YOUR TITLE ("objective")  BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO LET THAT ONE GO.

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 11 janvier 2014 - 05:36 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

For an objective look, it's pretty subjective.

[Roux72]

Drew's post doesn't really say anything one way or the other, he's just advertising his star wars novels (which seem cool I'll give him that) and then going onto to say in a very long-winded manner that he isn't going to say anything.

[Roux72]

That's also not entirely true about choice. At the very end of Mass Effect you could choose to save or kill the council, at the end of ME2 you could choose to save or destroy the Collector base. These are central plot devices.

Fine. I will concede that "demanding" is going too far. I will also go as far as to say that it probably wasn't EA's fault. But not because EA was on their backs, I do think that was likely the case, EA has a financial stake in this after all, they want their products on the shelves.

... I don't really care who's fault it is... Well I do... But not to point fingers... I want a real explanation as to what happened. If they just dropped the ball, then someone should just come forward and admit that they dropped the ball.