692 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
That may be true, but I was speaking to how they advertised the game, which was the ending would - wrap everything up, be better than previous games and be determined by previous choices, thus more diverse. Yeah, that didn't happen, and it should have.

We talkin' OEs or EC? EC did all the things you mentioned: the ME3 endings are absolutely more diverse than ME1 or ME2.

No, the EC did not do all the things I mentioned.

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
I wouldn't give an "arbitrary definition" unless asked for one.

Right, which would be the next step if someone asked why you felt the galaxy is screwed. 

This is where I was supposed to come in, right?

[CronoDragoon]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
There's more but that would require watching the end again and I hope I made my point;

Well you've certainly shown you can ask a lot of questions, nevermind how many of them have explanations or not.

[CronoDragoon]

Almostfaceman wrote...

No, the EC did not do all the things I mentioned.

Better is subjective and depends on everything else. The EC wrapped everything up with a bow, and the endings are more diverse than ME1 or ME2. So yes, it did do the specific things you mentioned.

[Almostfaceman]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

No, the EC did not do all the things I mentioned.

Better is subjective and depends on everything else. The EC wrapped everything up with a bow, and the endings are more diverse than ME1 or ME2. So yes, it did do the specific things you mentioned.

No, it didn't. The ending of ME3 remains very isolated from most major decisions I made in all three games and employs some technology (space magic) that isn't even hinted at in any of the three games. There are still questions about the Reapers, Starbrat, circular logic, space magic, repaired relays etc. that are not answered in the EC. Better may be subjective, but there's been a heck of a lot more customer dissatisfaction with the ending of ME3 than the previous two games.

[ImaginaryMatter]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
There's more but that would require watching the end again and I hope I made my point;

Well you've certainly shown you can ask a lot of questions, nevermind how many of them have explanations or not.

I didn't know I had it it me, I just kind of went into stream of consciousness mode. It actually felt rather cathartic.

[CronoDragoon]

Almostfaceman wrote...
No, it didn't. The ending of ME3 remains very isolated from most major decisions I made in all three games

But not more isolated than ME1 or ME2's endings were from their decisions.

and employs some technology (space magic) that isn't even hinted at in any of the three games. There are still questions about the Reapers, Starbrat, circular logic, space magic, repaired relays etc. that are not answered in the EC.

There are always going to be questions; there are STILL questions about dubious developments in ME1 and ME2's endings. But yeah, ME3 causes a lot more questions. That doesn't mean they didn't wrap everything up, which they did. Wrapping everything up =/= answering all questions.

Better may be subjective, but there's been a heck of a lot more customer dissatisfaction with the ending of ME3 than the previous two games.

With the original endings, sure. We have no real way of knowing what level of ****ing the BSN would have settled at had we been given the EC and Leviathan from the start. Normal, insufferable level of ****ing? Cover-your-ears-Retake ****ing? It's been interesting to see the slow trickle of players who finished the first time with the EC and Leviathan installed. The reaction is a bit different, although obviously not everyone "likes" the ending.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:21 .

[Roux72]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
No, it didn't. The ending of ME3 remains very isolated from most major decisions I made in all three games

But not more isolated than ME1 or ME2's endings were from their decisions.

and employs some technology (space magic) that isn't even hinted at in any of the three games. There are still questions about the Reapers, Starbrat, circular logic, space magic, repaired relays etc. that are not answered in the EC.

There are always going to be questions; there are STILL questions about dubious developments in ME1 and ME2's endings. But yeah, ME3 causes a lot more questions. That doesn't mean they didn't wrap everything up, which they did. Wrapping everything up =/= answering all questions.

Better may be subjective, but there's been a heck of a lot more customer dissatisfaction with the ending of ME3 than the previous two games.

With the original endings, sure. We have no real way of knowing what level of ****ing the BSN would have settled at had we been given the EC and Leviathan from the start. Normal, insufferable level of ****ing? Cover-your-ears-Retake ****ing? It's been interesting to see the slow trickle of players who finished the first time with the EC and Leviathan installed. The reaction is a bit different, although obviously not everyone "likes" the ending.

So in order to undertsand the game's ending with more "clarity" I have to spend extra money to line EA's pockets after paying for a full priced game?

Which I did by the way. And Leviathan was fun.

But I shouldn't have to buy it to understand what's going on.

Extended cut was, but I reiterate for the third time now, its sticking band aids on a deep gash that needs bandages and stitches. It clarified some things but ultimately couldn't fix something that needs to be fully retconned in order to reach some semblance of making logical sense.

[AlanC9]

Almostfaceman wrote...

No, it didn't. The ending of ME3 remains very isolated from most major decisions I made in all three games 

This is not exactly unusual in RPGs. It's OK to bring this up if you also think that all those other RPGs were bad, of course..

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:35 .

[TuringPoint]

You can't "hide" behind artistic integrity.  Artistic integrity is not an argument, but a value.

I will put forward an analogy, if you'll excuse it.  You don't have to like the Mona Lisa or think it's interesting or even respect whatever it is it represents, but it can be respected as a work in its own right and left alone.  If you play music, you work your butt off before the concert but when you finally play it, you let it be and congratulate yourself for the hours of work, sleepless nights and sacrifice that was given for it to be what it is in that final moment.  It is a product of work, talent, and chance.  

The fundamental importance of artistic integrity is that it protects the impulse of creativity, so that it can continue to exist in authentic and unique ways, rather than that art would be homogenized to the point that no one gets anything other than benign satisfaction from it.  

I, myself, have difficulty playing the ending.  I don't have any antipathy about it and I don't think Bioware was rejecting their own blood, sweat and tears by trying to make an ending that wasn't great.  I strongly believe the final product was a work of love, with many facets that aren't given credit by the obsession with getting absolute control of the outcome of the story.  

If you just focus on getting the outcome you want from a story, you aren't placing your interests in the art, you're putting the value in a net emotional purpose or satisfaction that isn't challenging, authentic, or rewarding.

How does that sound?  A video game that isn't challenging or rewarding?  Sounds like crap to me.

Different people will see a piece of creative work differently.  People see blatant facts differently.  The value of art is that you can experience it in a way the author never intended and be entirely doing it justice, or even making it better.  When you start to use that in your expectations of the work itself, you compromise the integrity of the work.
Art and creative works are a one-way street, and it is a lot of responsibility for the artist.  That's why artists work hard, in spite of the final product not having absolute value.  I don't think Bioware legitimately stopped working hard in this case, although they didn't follow through on the promise that every choice would have a clear result in the ending.  I respect the opinion that they failed in those terms.

As for the rest of it, the heart of the ending?  It is the right of the critic to critique, or to find no value in a work of art.  But the critic can still respect the art and walk the other way.  I honestly think people getting their money back is the best resolution.  It might not be convenient or ideal, but it protects everyone's basic interests.

In short, I don't believe it would be wrong to revise the game, I just think it would be wrong to give up on creating something and, instead, give people what they want.  There really is no "hiding" behind that.  It is not an argument, but a value.

Modifié par Alocormin, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:43 .

[CronoDragoon]

Roux72 wrote...
So in order to undertsand the game's ending with more "clarity" I have to spend extra money to line EA's pockets after paying for a full priced game?

Which I did by the way. And Leviathan was fun.

But I shouldn't have to buy it to understand what's going on.

I'm not really making a statement on whether it was the right thing for them to do, but rather making an assertion about the state of the endings with those things included. Personally I don't think DLC should ever be tied to the main plot in any fashion whatsoever.

Extended cut was, but I reiterate for the third time now, its sticking band aids on a deep gash that needs bandages and stitches. It clarified some things but ultimately couldn't fix something that needs to be fully retconned in order to reach some semblance of making logical sense.

Mass Effect never made logical sense. But you are right that the EC had no hope of fixing or answering all the plot questions ME3 introduces.

[Almostfaceman]

AlanC9 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

No, it didn't. The ending of ME3 remains very isolated from most major decisions I made in all three games 

This is not exactly unusual in RPGs. It's OK to bring this up if you slso think that all those other RPGs were bad, of course..

I'm talking about what Bioware advertised ME3 to be, and how it failed in that regard. I'm not sure how other RPG's factor into that.

[AlanC9]

Almostfaceman wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
No, it didn't. The ending of ME3 remains very isolated from most major decisions I made in all three games 

This is not exactly unusual in RPGs. It's OK to bring this up if you slso think that all those other RPGs were bad, of course..

I'm talking about what Bioware advertised ME3 to be, and how it failed in that regard. I'm not sure how other RPG's factor into that.

What advertised claims did Bio fail at, again? I don't remember any claim that the final choice would depend on what you did in the previous games, or that the ending would be shaoed by previous choices; they declared that the whole game would be so shaped, but that was simply true.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:49 .

[TuringPoint]

To be fair, they did use a lot of feedback from the fans. Maybe more than they should have or needed to at times.  They just didn't use all of it.

They did suggest the game would account for choices more thoroughly than it ended up accounting for them. Hudson did, in a tweet I believe. They really were dealing with a lot of variables for the ending. It just wasn't what people expected.

Just, keep in mind, it was Bioware's idea to make a game that carried choices over between games, and that's all they ever consistently promised.

Modifié par Alocormin, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:49 .

[AlanC9]

Sure. And they did that.

[CronoDragoon]

Well a few things don't add up, like this interview when Walters talks about the rachni's role in the ending, or about missions being precluded due to previous choices (a quote directly contradicted by Bioware saying - I think it was Weekes, no quote sorry - that they didn't want anyone to miss out on content because of their choices).

popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

I think it's clear that BW engaged in the same sort of hyperbole about ME3 that any company marketing its product does; in this case however they made the mistake of delving into specifics instead of vague promises of grandness.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 14 janvier 2014 - 05:59 .

[Steelcan]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well a few things don't add up, like this interview when Walters talks about the rachni's role in the ending, or about missions being precluded due to previous choices (a quote directly contradicted by Bioware saying - I think it was Weekes, no quote sorry - that they didn't want anyone to miss out on content because of their choices).

popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

I think it's clear that BW engaged in the same sort of hyperbole about ME3 that any company marketing its product does; in this case however they made the mistake of delving into specifics instead of vague promises of grandness.

<_<

I remember someone had a thread with every pre-release statement shown to be completely false, was quite extensive

[TuringPoint]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sure. And they did that.

Yes.

[Almostfaceman]

Steelcan wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Well a few things don't add up, like this interview when Walters talks about the rachni's role in the ending, or about missions being precluded due to previous choices (a quote directly contradicted by Bioware saying - I think it was Weekes, no quote sorry - that they didn't want anyone to miss out on content because of their choices).

popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

I think it's clear that BW engaged in the same sort of hyperbole about ME3 that any company marketing its product does; in this case however they made the mistake of delving into specifics instead of vague promises of grandness.

<_<

I remember someone had a thread with every pre-release statement shown to be completely false, was quite extensive

Yes, I'm talking about this.

[CronoDragoon]

Steelcan wrote...

I remember someone had a thread with every pre-release statement shown to be completely false, was quite extensive

I was here when that thread was being compiled, and what they did was essentially find an interview - ANY interview - and twist the words in an extremely obvious case of example cherry-picking. BW did a bad job matching some of the promises they made, but that thread served little purpose except self-righteous gluttony on the part of the fans.

[TuringPoint]

People are so upset when they don't get enough information, but they get too much in a situation like this and they jump all over it.

[Almostfaceman]

c091n87 wrote...

Mass Effect 3 is not Burger King. You don't get to have it your way with an ending catered to your wishes. If I'm reading the "what *we* wanted" bit correctly.

Second, developer quotes, promises, etc don't mean squat. Do not classify as advertising, in other words. PR tells you what you want to hear in order to get you to buy the game. Third, holding a company responsible for this stuff for 2 years is completely insane. Even after they were found innocent of false advertising, people refuse to let this go.

The customer is not always right, but people are acting like "the customer is right and is never wrong". About the promises, about the ending, about everything. 

Most people, most reasonable consumers just get their money back. You were offered a refund (a consumer right), but people didn't take it and kept pressing the issue. This is no longer a simple consumer complaint. It has become a crusade against them. I personally feel sorry for all the stuff they had to put up with from their customers. It's gotten completely out of hand and needs to stop.   

The Burger King thing is irrelevent to what I brought up. Nobody said Bioware promised a menu before we got to buy the game then we picked what we wanted. 

I don't agree with anything else you said. We have no common ground. Companies exist to provide a service or product for consumers and then make a profit from that service or product. If they're not meeting customer expectations, they don't make a profit. Hence the term "the customer is always right." No customers = no company.

Developer quotes, blah blah blah do mean squat. It's the reason they bother to talk to magazines and customers - it's to sell a certain product and make sure folks know about that certain product. If that product turns out to not meet expectations, there's going to be backlash. It's really that simple.

Bioware hasn't had to put up with anything unique from customers. I don't feel sorry for them. What you may not realize is that they actually welcome feedback - even if they can't always give the customer what they want. Companies actually pay good money for this kind of feedback - I've been in that business. 

No matter what business you're in there will always, ALWAYS be customer complaints. A good company can figure out when they're reaching their target market share despite the complaints, or if the complaints are numerous enough to indicate a hit to their profit or company image. 

Nobody offered me a refund. Don't know what you're talking about. In my case, I actually offered to pay for DLC that fixed the ending, because I thought most of the gaming experience was great quality. I can't speak for anyone else.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 14 janvier 2014 - 08:57 .

[Almostfaceman]

AlanC9 wrote...

What advertised claims did Bio fail at, again? I don't remember any claim that the final choice would depend on what you did in the previous games, or that the ending would be shaoed by previous choices; they declared that the whole game would be so shaped, but that was simply true.

Eh, there was a thread about the claims (compiled) a long time ago, not even sure it still exists. I looked briefly at older threads but I'm not going to hunt through 2000+ of them to find it. I wouldn't make this stuff up, never was an enemy of Mass Effect or Bioware. Pre-ordered the game, enjoyed ME1 and ME2. I experienced genuine, honest disappointment and I blame Bioware, not myself. They set different expectations than what they delivered. 

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 14 janvier 2014 - 08:58 .