692 réponses à ce sujet

[mopotter]

The bottom line for me is they gave me expectations of ME3 based on their past games from KOTOR, JE, DA series through ME2 and they gave no indication that ME3 would not follow this pattern. Multiple endings with one heroic survival; at least one ending I'd probably pick once or twice, and recently more than two choices, but still the one heroic ending with my character alive and hobbling, not looking like a crispy critter.

Say whatever you want about it being their game and their story. Fact is I'm not pre-ordering future games and that is their loss. Whether or not I purchase a game will be decided after the game has been released and I see what they have done with it.

For now, I'll continue playing my pc copies of the three games with the MEHEM for ME3. Or I'll play FA3 with the BS DLC or one of the older BioWare games that I love like JE.

[Dean_the_Young]

mopotter wrote...

The bottom line for me is they gave me expectations of ME3 based on their past games from KOTOR, JE, DA series through ME2 and they gave no indication that ME3 would not follow this pattern. Multiple endings with one heroic survival; at least one ending I'd probably pick once or twice, and recently more than two choices, but still the one heroic ending with my character alive and hobbling, not looking like a crispy critter.

Shh. Don't talk about heroism unless you want... it... to show up!

Say whatever you want about it being their game and their story. Fact is I'm not pre-ordering future games and that is their loss. Whether or not I purchase a game will be decided after the game has been released and I see what they have done with it.

For now, I'll continue playing my pc copies of the three games with the MEHEM for ME3. Or I'll play FA3 with the BS DLC or one of the older BioWare games that I love like JE.

Ok. And?

At this point all you've said is that you're still a willing and involved customer, just not a pre-order candidate. (Probably.) And if you really just keep replaying old Bioware games, it's not like you're a defecting customer and giving money to the enemy either. (Not that Bioware's ever given such a zero-sum position or attitude.)

While there is a bit of truth to the saying a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow, it isn't that much of a difference. Infact, if you're the sort of person who ultimately buys interesting DLC, such as Day 0 DLC characters that are now commonly packaged with the pre-order bonus, they aren't really losing money at all, and may be making more off of you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not the 'it' I'm referring to, sadly.

If only it were so simple...

[chemiclord]

mopotter wrote...

Say whatever you want about it being their game and their story. Fact is I'm not pre-ordering future games and that is their loss. Whether or not I purchase a game will be decided after the game has been released and I see what they have done with it.

For now, I'll continue playing my pc copies of the three games with the MEHEM for ME3. Or I'll play FA3 with the BS DLC or one of the older BioWare games that I love like JE.

Good.  That is your power; to not support what you don't like.  If you do not like the direction you think they are taking, you withhold your money until they demonstrate that they have "learned their lesson", whatever you think that lesson is.

That really IS how it works.

[Gkonone]

Why is a 'Disney' ending superficial really? Is a happy ending not intellectual enough or not artistic enough?

Shepard worked hard for 3 games to save the universe and he/she gets a star child out of nowhere that says 'no, you have 3 choices, despite whatever you did, and that's all you're going to get'.
Shepard earned him or herself a Disney ending, or at least one that made sense.

[mopotter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

mopotter wrote...

The bottom line for me is they gave me expectations of ME3 based on their past games from KOTOR, JE, DA series through ME2 and they gave no indication that ME3 would not follow this pattern. Multiple endings with one heroic survival; at least one ending I'd probably pick once or twice, and recently more than two choices, but still the one heroic ending with my character alive and hobbling, not looking like a crispy critter.

Shh. Don't talk about heroism unless you want... it... to show up!

Say whatever you want about it being their game and their story. Fact is I'm not pre-ordering future games and that is their loss. Whether or not I purchase a game will be decided after the game has been released and I see what they have done with it.

For now, I'll continue playing my pc copies of the three games with the MEHEM for ME3. Or I'll play FA3 with the BS DLC or one of the older BioWare games that I love like JE.

Ok. And?

At this point all you've said is that you're still a willing and involved customer, just not a pre-order candidate. (Probably.) And if you really just keep replaying old Bioware games, it's not like you're a defecting customer and giving money to the enemy either. (Not that Bioware's ever given such a zero-sum position or attitude.)

 While there is a bit of truth to the saying a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow, it isn't that much of a difference. Infact, if you're the sort of person who ultimately buys interesting DLC, such as Day 0 DLC characters that are now commonly packaged with the pre-order bonus, they aren't really losing money at all, and may be making more off of you.

I like heros, I'm never going to be one so I love playing one and I want to know that in some games, that hero is doing other heroic things once the game is over (Yes, I liked the idea of Tron) I am a willing and invloved customer, it's one reason I still come around once in awhile.  Plus there are some nice, polite, people here and I try to ignor the others. 
 
If  they make a game I want to play, I'll buy it.  But, I'm no longer a BIOWARE HAS A NEW GAME i MUST PREORDER SO I CAN PLAY IMMEDIATELY  customer.   

Yes, they make money off me. I play on the 360 but occasionaly I'll pick up something for the pc. Did for DAO because I like mods for mages and swords.

 ME3 I preorderd for the 360 and the only dlc I added was Citadel which I enjoy but though some people suggested just stopping at the end of it I couldn't get into that, so I just stopped playing the series I loved after 3 or 4 playthroughs, checking to see if I had missed some small piece of hope, back when it come out. I don't play MMO's, strictly a single player person so I didn't puchase any of the MMO stuff or any of the other story DLC..  

But that wonderful person made the MEHEM for the pc so I found the series on sale for the pc.  Quite a few of the extras came with it including some I would not have purchased, and for ME3 I have purchased some of the other side quest. that I didn't for the 360.  Not all of them, and NONE of the MMO stuff, but yes,  Because of the MEHEM they have made money off me.  

I will buy new games, BioWare just used to be my first choice and now it's not.  New Fall Out or Elder Scroll I'll be there, another borderland, sure pick it up.  Even a new Fable, I'll check it out.  I keep games, I only sell them or throw them out if the ending depresses me and I try to buy games I know I'm going to enjoy till I'm dead or in that nursing home without a 360.       

I have different standards for other developers,  I had BioWare on a pedistal and they fell off.  I'm certainly old enough to understand it happens, but I'm also old enough to be sad about it.  ME 3 had more than one ending.  there is no earthly reason one of those couldn't have been more than a charred body that blinked if you were quick enough to catch it. 

Not really anything else to say, as I continue saying it.  :innocent:  I hated the body and they could have made it better with just an announcement over Normandy's loudspeaker saying Shepard was found or even a little picture of Shepard in the hospital with get well cards on the stand next to the bed, or any of the other suggestions people have made and I would have paid for the dlc.  

People who don't "get" it never will and that's really too bad because I do understand how someone could enjoy the endings but I don't understand and probably never will how they can insist one more ending would have ruined their game.  Unless they just play one game, and that would be something I understand even less.

[mopotter]

Gkonone wrote...

Why is a 'Disney' ending superficial really? Is a happy ending not intellectual enough or not artistic enough?

Shepard worked hard for 3 games to save the universe and he/she gets a star child out of nowhere that says 'no, you have 3 choices, despite whatever you did, and that's all you're going to get'.
Shepard earned him or herself a Disney ending, or at least one that made sense.

I certainly agree.  

[chemiclord]

Gkonone wrote...

Why is a 'Disney' ending superficial really? Is a happy ending not intellectual enough or not artistic enough?

Shepard worked hard for 3 games to save the universe and he/she gets a star child out of nowhere that says 'no, you have 3 choices, despite whatever you did, and that's all you're going to get'.
Shepard earned him or herself a Disney ending, or at least one that made sense.

I dunno if I'd call it "superficial" more than "contrived."

Billions could be dead, planets ravaged, but your entire little monkey sphere comes through largely unscathed?  That's streaching MY suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point.

Part of the issue is the very emotional investment that has led to so much rage with the way things actually ended.  You really can't say, "Isn't all this stuff that happened off-screen enough?"  The answer, frankly, is "No.  It's not."  I think we can see that just from the various "Why should my Shepard care about Earth?" posts and threads.  Players really don't give a **** about the periphery.  

A war story of ME's scale HAS to hit home SOMEHOW.  It has to tear at your heartstrings in some way.  Now there's certainly degrees that Bioware should have explored, but I'm not sure a "Disney" ending would have been any better, honestly.  It would have been just as jarring to an entirely different group of people.

[voteDC]

JamesFaith wrote...

voteDC wrote...

I genuinely don't understand why some think it wrong that some demanded a 'better' ending.

If I've paid money for a product and I'm not happy with it, then I am sure as hell going to demand a better a one.

Would you do it with book with ending you don't like? Or movie?

You can try to get money back for them, but demanding their change is simply too much.

Yes. I've been one of those pushing for a rewrite of Mass Effect: Deception.

Also its not as if books don't get 'changed'. Sherlock Holmes is the most famous example. He was killed off but massive public demand brought the character back to life.

Public demand changed the story

As to movies I must have been incredibly lucky because at the moment I genuinely can't think of one that I disliked the ending in. I shall have to have a ponder on it. I've seen movies with terrible endings of course but those happened to be in overall terrible films.

But I ask again, why is demanding a change too much. As long as you put your issues across in a polite manner, what's the issue.

[ImaginaryMatter]

c091n87 wrote...

How many choices did you expect to have? Ten? Twenty? I don't want to sound like a broken record, but all those choices you made in ME1+ME2 affected how the game as a whole played out. And you did see that. Don't say you didn't, because you did. May not have happened right in the last 5 minutes, but it did happen. The last 5 minutes is where you deal with the Reapers. The leaked script even states "Shepard must make one final decision to deal with the Reapers: Control, Destroy, or if you had a perfect game, become one with the Reapers (synthesis)".

Saving the Council doesn't affect that, but you saw how that choice impacted during the course of the game.The entire game is one big ending where you get to see all your choices pan out from ME1+ME2.

I don't think the Council really changes anything, the new council essentially just adds a snide remark about letting the old council die and one is now a girl, then they behave exactly the same as the old council. The Collector base decision is even worse, I think the only way to have it matter is to meta-game to obtain a super low EMS.

ME2 for all of it's trilogy problems has these two choices make a bigger impact, in my opinion.

[chemiclord]

voteDC wrote...Yes. I've been one of those pushing for a rewrite of Mass Effect: Deception.

Also its not as if books don't get 'changed'. Sherlock Holmes is the most famous example. He was killed off but massive public demand brought the character back to life.

Public demand changed the story

As to movies I must have been incredibly lucky because at the moment I genuinely can't think of one that I disliked the ending in. I shall have to have a ponder on it. I've seen movies with terrible endings of course but those happened to be in overall terrible films.

But I ask again, why is demanding a change too much. As long as you put your issues across in a polite manner, what's the issue.

Because, in all cases that you cite... the things that are changed mechanically are practically nil.

In the case of Sherlock Holmes, nothing in that previous book changes.  Literally nothing.  What is ADDED is a justification in the NEXT book as to how he somehow survived.

In the case of Fallout, it basically boiled down to ONE variable that was altered, and content ADDED on (content that you had to PAY FOR at that).

There is no one variable that fixes ME3 for even a simple majority of people.  It would need to be torn down and redone almost entirely from scratch, and quite possibly that entire final mission. THAT wasn't going to happen, no matter how much people scream.

Modifié par chemiclord, 17 janvier 2014 - 03:32 .

[FlamingBoy]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]FlamingBoy wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]FlamingBoy wrote...

I have significant knowledge about history, especially 2000 years ago (roman empire being among my personal favorites). Thank you for the implication.[/quote]Ooh, goody. Let's qualify signficiant.

Do you know the governors of your local city? His son? Do you know the slave revolts and taxation records? What was the public perception on the Roman transition to Empire?

Maybe that's not significant enough. How about De Orthographia: De Obscuris Catonis? The rituals of Saturnus? Can you at least describe the contents of Rereum memoria dignarum libri?

If you can't, why can't I claim your knowledge is insignificant?

[quote]
My stance on knowledge of the crucible is the same. There is not enough.

[/quote]How not? Your questions were answered. You were given enough information to support the plot as necessary.

Knowing the original species name of the Keepers doesn't affect the plot. Knowing the first species to call the Crucible a Crucible doesn't change its role or purpose.


The key words, both here and in the roman question, is 'significant.' Most people will take a position that significant information will change priorities and policies if known. Significant information changes your actions. So far, you have not made any such justification for your questions, which is why we are calling them unimportant.

[/quote]


Do you know the governors of your local city? His son? Do you know the
slave revolts and taxation records? What was the public perception on
the Roman transition to Empire?

1. One yes I know the governor to my local city, but unwilling to share that information on the internet.
2. No I do not know the son of the governor of my local city. But if I did I would not say, same as above.
3. Slave revolts, Yes I do. The most significant being that of spartacus who was defeated by crassus (part of the first trimutative, died in parthia in a historical defeat)
4. Taxation records, no I do not know much about that.[/quote]Congratulations: by vague, arbitrary standards you have insignificant knowledge.


[quote]
The following will take alot of time, so I kept it short.
5. public perception of the roman transition is a complicated one (I mean what isn't in roman politics). While yes augustus was emperor (he called it "first citizen) he made great pains to keep the illusion that the roman republic was still in place. Augustus was literally in the roman eyes son of a god (due to julius being considered a god) hence he was highly popular, the libertories were largely killed off.

[/quote]I'm not asking a historical overview. I'm asking specific to your area. Who were the opinion brokers of the day.
[quote]
How about De Orthographia: De Obscuris Catonis? The rituals of Saturnus? Can you at least describe the contents of Rereum memoria dignarum libri?

 I cannot answer to the detail you require. I think its a fine example of "to much detail" and would not be required in mass effect 3.[/quote]Why are some of the most famous lost works of history 'too much detail', but not having a meaningless name without plot impact 'too little'?
[quote]
May we continue this arrogance much longer...[/quote]Don't let me stop you.
[quote]
as for the "answers to my question" due the quoting style I made no effort to read them. Which is why we are probably on different pages of importance.[/quote]Try reading, then. Other people's viewpoints will open your mind.
[quote]
Context into why the crucible was built gives us a window into the minds of the creators. The same way the slave revolts give us a window in the following actions that took place after it.[/quote]If the only thing you know about a slave revolt is a name, it really doesn't. Since there have been thousands of cycles at the least, simply giving the names of everyone who worked on the Crucible offers no insight past 'that was a lot of people.'
[quote]
Knowing the keepers (the only living species of cycles long before) is an interesting question and a obvious one.  I am just really curious about the species thats maintained a space station for an X number of years.
[/quote]But that's just curiosity. It's not important, to the plot or the characterization of the plot's characters.
[/quote]
I still find that method of posting very difficult to respond to, I am just not that familiar to forums, so forgive me for once again not doing it. Think of it as a, not you its me, kind of thing.
Sorry I was going for the minimal (lazy:P) approach because I thought me droaning on and on about roman history would be inappropriate (I know significantly more about the slave revolts and the "opinion brokers' but I no longer see its connection to the larger topic, perhaps (for me) its the quoting style breaking it all up). The tangent no longer connects to the major point of argument.

So I think we are done here, thank you for your contribution and have a good day.

[FlamingBoy]

c091n87 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...
If you can't accept that; then it's time to walk away.

Some of these people are so emotionally invested in this game, they can't let it go. Sad thing really. It's just a game. They can't differentiate between fantasy and reality.

Personally I wouldn't dare to know what goes on in the head of the fellow man, really its more about using the forum and talking about mass effect 3. Some rather talk about evolution, god, war crimes, the ethics of universal healthcare.

I like to talk about video games, and mass effect 3 and its faults ecapsulates that.

edit: third time is the charm:)

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 17 janvier 2014 - 06:11 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

c091n87 wrote...

Mass Effect has always been a binary choice game. None of the choices you made would completely change the narrative, or the story arc. There are games like that, but Mass Effect is not one of them. It's more, did you do X, then Y happens. Most of the plot variables in the save editor essentially work like that (true or false, 1 or 0, yes or no).

Not like making a decision early on in the game completely changes the course of the second half of the game. Regardless of what happens, you still build the Crucible, take Earth back, cure the genophage or not. Still retake the Citadel from Cerberus or go to Cronos Station to face off against TIM.

Or if you want to go back, you still recruit 12 squad members, get them loyal, and go on a suicide mission. You can choose which ones to recruit, much like in ME3, you can choose to kill Geth/Quarians, or save both of them. Or you can sabotage the genophage, but lose Krogan support, but gain Salarians. Or vice versa.

If you kill the first council, they don't give you the destiny ascension. If you saved the first one, they do.

Here's a better example

Point is, people never had any real choice in this game to begin with. It was Bioware's choices that they pre-selected for us to make, and we just pick which one they wanted. It felt like "our story" (marketing talk), but it wasn't really. It was theirs.

But decisions can have a bigger impact than how the narrative proceeds, different choices can have the same impact on the narrative yet carry different things like tone. Take for example in ME2 the attitude of the denizens aboard the Zakara Ward are either noticably more or less hostile towards Shepard as a human depending on the decision to save the Council. This isn't a major change but it is very noticable. It doesn't affect the direction of the story at all but it has an impact on the feel of that hub and thus an effect on the galaxy of Mass Effect.

[JamesFaith]

voteDC wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
Would you do it with book with ending you don't like? Or movie?

Yes. I've been one of those pushing for a rewrite of Mass Effect: Deception.

Also its not as if books don't get 'changed'. Sherlock Holmes is the most famous example. He was killed off but massive public demand brought the character back to life.

Public demand changed the story.

...

But I ask again, why is demanding a change too much. As long as you put your issues across in a polite manner, what's the issue.

You know is sad that you used example of A. C. Doyle and Sherlock Holmes, especially with connection of last sentence.When we skipped fact that Doyle didn't change one single word in "The final problem", return of Holmes is example of probably one of worst public terror of writer. 

Doyle was under constant pressure whole 8 years. People not only sending him letters, they were also visiting him in his home, contacting him in restaurants and stopping him on the streets and they reactions moved between pledging to death threats. He got dozens (I read somewhere that even more then hundred, but I'm not 100% sure)  of deaths threats in letters. When in present is such behavior punished by law after few days, he had to live in this hell nearly decade and his only chance to get some peace was return to work he hated.

And now is this psychic terror here on BSN used as argument that demanding change is normal.

[Almostfaceman]

JamesFaith wrote...

You know is sad that you used example of A. C. Doyle and Sherlock Holmes, especially with connection of last sentence.When we skipped fact that Doyle didn't change one single word in "The final problem", return of Holmes is example of probably one of worst public terror of writer. 

Doyle was under constant pressure whole 8 years. People not only sending him letters, they were also visiting him in his home, contacting him in restaurants and stopping him on the streets and they reactions moved between pledging to death threats. He got dozens (I read somewhere that even more then hundred, but I'm not 100% sure)  of deaths threats in letters. When in present is such behavior punished by law after few days, he had to live in this hell nearly decade and his only chance to get some peace was return to work he hated.

And now is this psychic terror here on BSN used as argument that demanding change is normal.

Melodramatic much? Psychic terror? Puh-lease. Nobody here is condoning going to Bioware developers' homes and harrassing them.

And demanding change is normal. Happens all the time. Look around you.

[JamesFaith]

Almostfaceman wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

You know is sad that you used example of A. C. Doyle and Sherlock Holmes, especially with connection of last sentence.When we skipped fact that Doyle didn't change one single word in "The final problem", return of Holmes is example of probably one of worst public terror of writer. 

Doyle was under constant pressure whole 8 years. People not only sending him letters, they were also visiting him in his home, contacting him in restaurants and stopping him on the streets and they reactions moved between pledging to death threats. He got dozens (I read somewhere that even more then hundred, but I'm not 100% sure)  of deaths threats in letters. When in present is such behavior punished by law after few days, he had to live in this hell nearly decade and his only chance to get some peace was return to work he hated.

And now is this psychic terror here on BSN used as argument that demanding change is normal.

Melodramatic much? Psychic terror? Puh-lease. Nobody here is condoning going to Bioware developers' homes and harrassing them.

And demanding change is normal. Happens all the time. Look around you.

Did I said something like that? I only speak about used A. C. Doyle example as normality of demand of change, when in fact it is example of one of most extreme behavior in such case.

And when something bad happening all the time around us, it make it somehow less bad?  

Modifié par JamesFaith, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:43 .

[sevalaricgirl]

Gkonone wrote...

Why is a 'Disney' ending superficial really? Is a happy ending not intellectual enough or not artistic enough?

Shepard worked hard for 3 games to save the universe and he/she gets a star child out of nowhere that says 'no, you have 3 choices, despite whatever you did, and that's all you're going to get'.
Shepard earned him or herself a Disney ending, or at least one that made sense.

Honestly, knowing Anderson died is a hard hitting emotional image for me.  The MEHEM is perfect and maybe Bioware needs to hire the mod creator.  Frankly, you can tell from the MEHEM that Shep is all broken up over what happened.  She's not smiling.  She's damned upset, a wreck and ready to ball her eyes out (behind the scenes of course).  Bioware let someone else do the work for them and thanks to him, those of us who love our Sheps get an ending that's emotionally heart wrenching but our Sheps get to live on and help rebuild.

[dreamgazer]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Gkonone wrote...

Why is a 'Disney' ending superficial really? Is a happy ending not intellectual enough or not artistic enough?

Shepard worked hard for 3 games to save the universe and he/she gets a star child out of nowhere that says 'no, you have 3 choices, despite whatever you did, and that's all you're going to get'.
Shepard earned him or herself a Disney ending, or at least one that made sense.

Honestly, knowing Anderson died is a hard hitting emotional image for me.  The MEHEM is perfect and maybe Bioware needs to hire the mod creator.  Frankly, you can tell from the MEHEM that Shep is all broken up over what happened.  She's not smiling.  She's damned upset, a wreck and ready to ball her eyes out (behind the scenes of course).  Bioware let someone else do the work for them and thanks to him, those of us who love our Sheps get an ending that's emotionally heart wrenching but our Sheps get to live on and help rebuild.

You're aware that MEHEM wouldn't exist without the Extended Cut that BioWare spent the time, money, and development resources poured into its creation, right?  I'd think twice about stating the bolded. 

[CronoDragoon]

sevalaricgirl wrote...
Honestly, knowing Anderson died is a hard hitting emotional image for me.  The MEHEM is perfect and maybe Bioware needs to hire the mod creator.  Frankly, you can tell from the MEHEM that Shep is all broken up over what happened.  She's not smiling.  She's damned upset, a wreck and ready to ball her eyes out (behind the scenes of course).  Bioware let someone else do the work for them and thanks to him, those of us who love our Sheps get an ending that's emotionally heart wrenching but our Sheps get to live on and help rebuild.

I don't even know where to start here, but luckily dreamgazer did it for me.