692 réponses à ce sujet

[MattFini]

Threads like this make me realize that my own expectations/wants for the endgame are not in line with what's continuously expressed here.

I'm not sure I ever expected a 'happy' ending to this trilogy. Going into the third game, I knew there would be casualties and when I went into Priority: Earth for the first time, I was looking forward to something like the Virmire scenario played out on a much bigger scale.

I actually wanted there to be more casualties to even get to the beam. Whole forces and war assets that really only provided fodder for Shepard to get to where he needed to be.

I'm not saying I wanted the series to end on a completely nihilistic note. But I wanted it to end climatically. Everything about the decision chamber is presented so casually that it's anticlimactic. If we reached that chamber IN SPITE of the AI, and figured out that we had three choices to make, and again made one IN SPITE of that damn thing (who just wanted the cycle to continue), it might have felt more like a victory over the reapers no matter which color was picked.

The biggest problem I have with ME3 after all this time (and I love the game) is that its ending just falls flat because of the way it's written. With a little tweaking, our choice could have felt like a victory over the conflict no matter what, and I feel like a lot of players would have felt better about "winning" this way.

I'm really fine with the three choices, I think. But it's the way in which they're presented that rubs me the wrong way.

And I still think there needed to be an epilogue. Not EC-style slides, but some kind of funeral for Shep (if he died) that gave the series a nice sense of closure. Not necessarily the universe, but the characters in it. I know that BW admitted they underestimated player attachment to the characters, and again, that's really what left me cold about the ending (not so much the choices, or the loss of Shepard). 

Modifié par MattFini, 17 janvier 2014 - 04:00 .

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

A war story of ME's scale HAS to hit home SOMEHOW.  It has to tear at your heartstrings in some way.  Now there's certainly degrees that Bioware should have explored, but I'm not sure a "Disney" ending would have been any better, honestly.  It would have been just as jarring to an entirely different group of people.

The beauty is with a game that touts choice as so important, a player could choose what kind of ending they want, and nobody is forced into an ending they find jarring.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

The beauty is with a game that touts choice as so important, a player could choose what kind of ending they want, and nobody is forced into an ending they find jarring.

Touting choice doesn't mean you get to choose the tone of your ending.

[Iakus]

It should. Or else what's the point of offering chocies?

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

It should. Or else what's the point of offering chocies?

Seriously? You think the only point of choice is choosing how happy or sad your playthrough is?

[dreamgazer]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Given the amount of noise and sheer number of different ways people took issue with the ending to ME3 is a clear indication to anyone with half a brain that it failed. That some people enjoyed it more than others is neither here nor there. It failed. Objectively. End of.

Shall we retrace the pieces of fiction that were met with mixed responses at their release? 

By your definition, all these films and all these books objectively failed.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 17 janvier 2014 - 04:17 .

[Br3admax]

Not to say that ME will be a classic one day.

[AlanC9]

sevalaricgirl wrote...
 Frankly, you can tell from the MEHEM that Shep is all broken up over what happened.  She's not smiling.  She's damned upset, a wreck and ready to ball her eyes out (behind the scenes of course).  

Wait a minute. I thought it was bad for Bio to assign emotional expressions to Shepard without our input. Is there some sort of dialogue wheel controlling this, or is this sort of thing OK when MEHEM does it?

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

It should. Or else what's the point of offering chocies?

Seriously? You think the only point of choice is choosing how happy or sad your playthrough is?

This is apparently What RPGs Are Meant To Be, or something. 

[Almostfaceman]

JamesFaith wrote...

And when something bad happening all the time around us, it make it somehow less bad?  

False comparison is false, all change is not bad, nor is people demanding change always bad. It's a normal thing, some of it good, some of it bad and it happens all the time. 

There's nothing wrong with A.C. Doyle comparison unless you want to read all the negatives out of it (like you did). The positive was we got more Sherlock Holmes. 

[Almostfaceman]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

The beauty is with a game that touts choice as so important, a player could choose what kind of ending they want, and nobody is forced into an ending they find jarring.

Touting choice doesn't mean you get to choose the tone of your ending.

Based on players previous experience with ME (ME2, you can have a happy ending where everyone lives and **** Illusive man is mad at you for destroying the base or a sad ending where it's only Joker alive - ME1, you can have a happy ending as a do-gooder Paragon with upbeat music and a saved council, or a sad ending with the council dead, major Renegade points, and ominous music playing - Shepard saved the galaxy but at what cost?) it's quite obviously implied. That's *one* of the reasons folks got upset. 

[Almostfaceman]

AlanC9 wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...
 Frankly, you can tell from the MEHEM that Shep is all broken up over what happened.  She's not smiling.  She's damned upset, a wreck and ready to ball her eyes out (behind the scenes of course).  

Wait a minute. I thought it was bad for Bio to assign emotional expressions to Shepard without our input. Is there some sort of dialogue wheel controlling this, or is this sort of thing OK when MEHEM does it?

Wait, what? Who said that? Who's complaining that Shep is obviously sad when Anderson dies in the vanilla game?

[Almostfaceman]

AlanC9 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

It should. Or else what's the point of offering chocies?

Seriously? You think the only point of choice is choosing how happy or sad your playthrough is?

This is apparently What RPGs Are Meant To Be, or something. 

You're acting like it's odd for someone to have a preference about this. Surely you have preferences of how games are supposed to be? Or are you the most open-minded human on earth, gleefully playing any and all games with hopeless abandon?

[CronoDragoon]

Almostfaceman wrote...
Based on players previous experience with ME (ME2, you can have a happy ending where everyone lives and **** Illusive man is mad at you for destroying the base or a sad ending where it's only Joker alive

Only if you screw up royally during the game, as evidenced by referring to such playthroughs as "FailShep" playthroughs. The ME2 ending varies in tone based on player competence, not choice. You can choose to be incompetent, of course.

ME1, you can have a happy ending as a do-gooder Paragon with upbeat music and a saved council, or a sad ending with the council dead, major Renegade points, and ominous music playing - Shepard saved the galaxy but at what cost?) it's quite obviously implied. That's *one* of the reasons folks got upset.

I've never heard anyone else describe the Renegade path as the "sad" ending.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Wait, what? Who said that? Who's complaining that Shep is obviously sad when Anderson dies in the vanilla game?

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of lambasting BioWare for certain cases of auto-emotion while praising Mr. Fob for others.

Almostfaceman wrote...
You're acting like it's odd for someone to have a preference about this. Surely you have preferences of how
games are supposed to be? Or are you the most open-minded human on earth, gleefully playing any and all games with hopeless abandon?

Preference is one thing, defining "RPG" based on your preference purely to suit your argument is another.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 17 janvier 2014 - 07:13 .

[Almostfaceman]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
Based on players previous experience with ME (ME2, you can have a happy ending where everyone lives and **** Illusive man is mad at you for destroying the base or a sad ending where it's only Joker alive

Only if you screw up royally during the game, as evidenced by referring to such playthroughs as "FailShep" playthroughs. The ME2 ending varies in tone based on player competence, not choice. You can choose to be incompetent, of course.

ME1, you can have a happy ending as a do-gooder Paragon with upbeat music and a saved council, or a sad ending with the council dead, major Renegade points, and ominous music playing - Shepard saved the galaxy but at what cost?) it's quite obviously implied. That's *one* of the reasons folks got upset.

I've never heard anyone else describe the Renegade path as the "sad" ending.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Wait, what? Who said that? Who's complaining that Shep is obviously sad when Anderson dies in the vanilla game?

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of lambasting BioWare for certain cases of auto-emotion while praising Mr. Fob for others.

Almostfaceman wrote...
You're acting like it's odd for someone to have a preference about this. Surely you have preferences of how
games are supposed to be? Or are you the most open-minded human on earth, gleefully playing any and all games with hopeless abandon?

Preference is one thing, defining "RPG" based on your preference purely to suit your argument is another.

Eh, I think you're reading more into what's being said than is there. Iakus is clearly preferring that choice have a happy to sad range, and if there's not that range he wants to know what the point is of the choice. That's what he said. Nobody answered him, and instead lambasted him for trying to do something he didn't try to do. I have that preference as well, so what? He didn't say that you had to like that kind of ending, he just can't understand the choices without those flavors. 

I know Alan was blasting hypocrisy, but I was asking for who was displaying the hypocrisy - nobody in this thread so far has blasted the emotions thing as far as I can tell, at least not anyone in the last couple of pages. So, who's he talking to?

You've never heard anyone else describe the Renegade ending of ME1 as the sad ending? Good for you, it's certainly not the happy, chipper, "we won!" tone - mainly set by the music - of the Paragon choice. Maybe you're one of those folks who's not affected by music, who knows. There's been some angry and hard-set choices by the Renegade though, his playthrough is definitely a different tone than the Paragon's and the ending reflects that. I think it's more based on outlook - the Renegade is looking at the universe through a less optimistic lense than the Paragon - because yes the Paragon makes some hard (and bloody) choices as well as the Renegade.  

And your point you made about ME2 is moot, the choice is there and people - accidentally, intentionally, whatever, have the choice. It set a precedent and that was my point, and the point stands. 

[AlanC9]

Talk of defining RPGs is a spillover from the "ME3's story is pointless thread" yesterday.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:44 .

[SpamBot2000]

That mess doesn't even deserve an objective consideration. Not that I'd be capable of one. 

Confusion now hath made his masterpiece. There never was anything that made less sense.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:51 .

[Iakus]

Almostfaceman wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

And when something bad happening all the time around us, it make it somehow less bad?  

False comparison is false, all change is not bad, nor is people demanding change always bad. It's a normal thing, some of it good, some of it bad and it happens all the time. 

There's nothing wrong with A.C. Doyle comparison unless you want to read all the negatives out of it (like you did). The positive was we got more Sherlock Holmes. 

I guess demogoguery is the newest tact after reductio ad absurdum 

[AlanC9]

Almostfaceman wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...
 Frankly, you can tell from the MEHEM that Shep is all broken up over what happened.  She's not smiling.  She's damned upset, a wreck and ready to ball her eyes out (behind the scenes of course).  

Wait a minute. I thought it was bad for Bio to assign emotional expressions to Shepard without our input. Is there some sort of dialogue wheel controlling this, or is this sort of thing OK when MEHEM does it?

Wait, what? Who said that? Who's complaining that Shep is obviously sad when Anderson dies in the vanilla game?

As CronoDragoon mentions, I'm just pointing out hypocrisy. People say that it's wrong for Bio to assign emotions to Shepard all the time, but they're either lying or b.s.ing. They only have a problem if they don't approve of the emotion expressed.

And if Shepard really is "all broken up over what happened.  She's not smiling.  She's damned upset, a wreck and ready to ball her eyes out," I would not approve. Many of my Sheps wouldn't be all that broken up. But I figure that was probably a bit of hyperbole anyway.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Eh, I think you're reading more into what's being said than is there. Iakus is clearly preferring that choice have a happy to sad range, and if there's not that range he wants to know what the point is of the choice. That's what he said. Nobody answered him, and instead lambasted him for trying to do something he didn't try to do. I have that preference as well, so what? He didn't say that you had to like that kind of ending, he just can't understand the choices without those flavors.

We didn't answer him because his exact question was already directly answered both by Alan and myself 7 pages ago in this very thread. At this point asking the same question again with slightly different words is just being stubborn and refusing to acknowledge different points of view. 

I know Alan was blasting hypocrisy, but I was asking for who was displaying the hypocrisy - nobody in this thread so far has blasted the emotions thing as far as I can tell, at least not anyone in the last couple of pages. So, who's he talking to?

I don't think you spend much time around here. Many people say this, although I believe it had yet to come up in this thread. Sion and I are having a conversation about it in another thread on the front page. Ieldra constantly talks about auto-emotion negatively.

You've never heard anyone else describe the Renegade ending of ME1 as the sad ending? Good for you, it's certainly not the happy, chipper, "we won!" tone - mainly set by the music - of the Paragon choice. Maybe you're one of those folks who's not affected by music, who knows. There's been some angry and hard-set choices by the Renegade though, his playthrough is definitely a different tone than the Paragon's and the ending reflects that. I think it's more based on outlook - the Renegade is looking at the universe through a less optimistic lense than the Paragon - because yes the Paragon makes some hard (and bloody) choices as well as the Renegade.

 

I'm no expert on ME1 and I've never played through it Renegade because I don't like the game and could only tolerate one playthrough, so I'm not trying to refute your interpretation, only suggesting that I've never heard anyone call it thus. 

And your point you made about ME2 is moot, the choice is there and people - accidentally, intentionally, whatever, have the choice. It set a precedent and that was my point, and the point stands. 

My point about ME2 is not moot, because your "choice" is to either fail at the objectives of the game or not, which is not a "choice" so much as varying fail-states. And oh yeah, Mass Effect 3 has this too in the form of Low EMS playthroughs.

[Almostfaceman]

CronoDragoon wrote...

My point about ME2 is not moot, because your "choice" is to either fail at the objectives of the game or not, which is not a "choice" so much as varying fail-states. And oh yeah, Mass Effect 3 has this too in the form of Low EMS playthroughs.

Call it what you want, they are choices and they affect the emotional tone of the end of the game, which was my initial point. 

Ugh, don't even try to compare losing a squadmate to the silly low EMS endings of ME3. Bleh.

[Almostfaceman]

CronoDragoon wrote...
I don't think you spend much time around here. Many people say this, although I believe it had yet to come up in this thread. Sion and I are having a conversation about it in another thread on the front page. Ieldra constantly talks about auto-emotion negatively.

That may be true, but to bring it up in the middle of another topic not addressing any particular quote was what confused me. I've seen the complaints about auto-dialogue, but I'm not really amongst the complainers on that issue. Bioware can't make people happy on that one - they complained he was a "brick" for ME1 and ME2 then for ME3, well, you know. I just kinda shrug my shoulders at that one.

[mopotter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
It's a step back from the suicide mission. It's more like ME1's ending run on the Citadel - which also sucks. I have no nostalgia about it. I'm an equal opportunity hater.

Oh, absolutely. Except that ME3's mission is way uglier, which does count for something. OTOH, I think P:E is a little shorter, which also counts for something.

People don't like ME1's Citadel run?

Weird. Personally, I thought it was the best part of the game: what with the race against time, the use of off-screen reinforcements and delaying tactics always fit the Chase theme I felt the game was going for. Unlike the Suicide Mission, which was overhyped and under-delivered, the Citadel Run made no pretensions and so was even more tense. (If that makes any sense.)

Plus, running towards and under Sovereign at that scale did more than anything in any other game to emphasize the disparity between our soldier and the Reapers.

Me too.  I loved that part.  Well, I loved the whole package of ME1.  

[mopotter]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Would you do it with book with ending you don't like? Or movie?

You can try to get money back for them, but demanding their change is simply too much.

Books and movies don't claim the reader or viewer has any agency over what happens.

Add importing data to sequels and you have an audience that has a vested interest in how the story turns out.

Yes.  I've never been to a movie where I can pick the stars lines.