692 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

mopotter wrote...

I guess it's a game play thing then.  I never screw up when I'm playing Shepard.  

Each decision I make is based on information I have.  I/Shepard  does not screw up.  Rational decisions that have different results.  In Me2, to me Garus, Jacob and Zaeed,  all should have been capable for taking a team in the sucide run. Tali, Legion and Kasumi were all qualified to do the vents and Samara, Jack and Miranda could do the umbrella bubble. So in each game I pick someone to do the jobs and watch the results.  Not a screw up, but definately different results.  I did break this rule for the crew, once I lost a few of them and then lost most of them, hated that.  

Yeah I lost the crew as well as Mordin on my first run, not looking at any spoilers.

[mopotter]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
So, let me get this straight. Your logic is that Bioware can't design a wide variety of endings and has to stick to grimdark because a lot of people will like the happy ending and think it's the right ending? Really? That's nonsense. 

There's two examples I'll throw out. In DA:O, you can have a "happy" ending and let your warden live by having sex with the strange witch woman, thereby and possibly spawning an old god who will do who knows what in the future.

And what is the distribution of fans who choose the Dark Ritual vs. other endings? Rather high, actually. If you'd like to dispute me, you can try to find data. I was relatively unsuccessful in that the only poll I could find on the first three pages of Google was this one. It's an extremely small sample size, bit it gels with the anecdotal evidence I've found on the BSN where the OGB choice is popular enough to get threads on speculation of the OGB's role in future Dragon Ages pages and pages.

 I hated the dark ritual with a deep deep pasion for many reasons I won't go into,  But I did it a few times, then switched to Zev and made Alistar be happy with the Queen, died, and went back to the circle.  

 I ranted for years about it, It infuriated me, the ME3 ending just makes me sad and I'll continue to rant about that.  Then I played ME3. Sadly I don't have much problem with it any more.  I guess that's one reason I won't pre-order the next game, I would hate to play it and find out I don't hate the Me3 ending as much becuase the next one I hate more.  

[BaladasDemnevanni]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
A "single" sacrifice? Spawning an old god can have all kinds of negative ramifications to those with the imagination to ponder the choice. In making the choice is my warden dooming other innocent folk, possibly entire civilizations, to something far worse than any Blight? One can imagine many, many sacrifices for the "selfishness" of preserving one's own life. Yes, to me that is grimdark when you position it agains, say, the ending to Disney's Snow White, where she weathers the trials to live happily ever after, not dooming a single soul - or perhaps even the Bhaalspawn - I think he can choose to live a "normal" life with his romance. 

This is where tastes can differ and I doubt that your definition of grimdark and mine will ever match up, despite further debate. 

So we were talking about the Dark Ritual. In that case, Inquisition has a chance to make the Dark Ritual retrospectively "dark" if the OGB causes some horrible catastrophe. We'll see how that goes.

As for pre-Inquisition, it's simply too easy for players to handwave away concerns. Morrigan isn't a bad person! Perhaps it'll be good! They aren't forced to confront the downsides of their action, which essentially means the consequences were punted to later, nondescript points of time. This fits for the original dark energy choice as well.

That's the problem with trying to apply grim dark to Origins.

The only potential down side occurs with the Dark Ritual, and that's not even remotely guaranteed. For the Dark Ritual to work, there needs to be a suitable down side to the player releasing the soul of an Old God into a child.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 20 janvier 2014 - 02:13 .

[mopotter]

Almostfaceman wrote...

mopotter wrote...

I guess it's a game play thing then.  I never screw up when I'm playing Shepard.  

Each decision I make is based on information I have.  I/Shepard  does not screw up.  Rational decisions that have different results.  In Me2, to me Garus, Jacob and Zaeed,  all should have been capable for taking a team in the sucide run. Tali, Legion and Kasumi were all qualified to do the vents and Samara, Jack and Miranda could do the umbrella bubble. So in each game I pick someone to do the jobs and watch the results.  Not a screw up, but definately different results.  I did break this rule for the crew, once I lost a few of them and then lost most of them, hated that.  

Yeah I lost the crew as well as Mordin on my first run, not looking at any spoilers.

My first play I lost Legion.  I forgot where they put him and got lost on the ship.  Embarising but true. 

[Chashan]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...


I'd be fine with competence if it didn't already feel like the Paragon/Renegade system was meant to force difficult decisions. If Bioware does want to go this route, I'd prefer something in the style of KotOR. At least there, dark side characters were purposely trying to  make the world a miserable place, instead of pretending that they want to save it but doing a weak job (as per Renegades).

That said, I find the less than optimal endings in such games boring. Jade Empire's ending where you sacrifice yourself to the final villain being a prime example.

Nice point, that. It isn't as though ME3 couldn't have tried offering such a "dark side"-route itself, had BW wanted - Cerberus could have served for that purpose rather than being demoted to evul, faceless mooks.

You find that ending boring? It's worth the old dog's laugh alone...

[AlanC9]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Yeah I lost the crew as well as Mordin on my first run, not looking at any spoilers.

I can understand losing the crew by doing LMs. How'd you lose anyone on the SM with everyone loyal, though? Bad hold-the-line score?

My first run I lost Miranda (non-loyal; couldn't make the dialogue check in the Jack confrontation). Thane also wasn't loyal; I outright botched his LM by watching the wrong guy.

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 janvier 2014 - 10:01 .

[AlanC9]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
I'd be fine with competence if it didn't already feel like the Paragon/Renegade system was meant to force difficult decisions. If Bioware does want to go this route, I'd prefer something in the style of KotOR. At least there, dark side characters were purposely trying to  make the world a miserable place, instead of pretending that they want to save it but doing a weak job (as per Renegades).

Well, it's not so much that the Renegades are doing a weak job as that the universe itself is conspiring against them. My RenSheps don't know they're characters in a Bio game, so they don't realize that the Paragon approach will always work fine.

[Chashan]

AlanC9 wrote...

I can understand losing the crew by doing LMs. How'd you lose anyone on the SM with everyone loyal, though? Bad hold-the-line score?

My first run I lost Miranda (non-loyal; couldn't make the dialogue check in the Jack confrontation). Thane also wasn't loyal; I outright botched his LM by watching the wrong guy.

By assigning the "wrong" person for a certain task. Although that seems awfully arbitrary at times; why would Thane not be able to properly cover the one to walk the vents, again?

So the Suicide Mission indeed is not beyond scrutiny, Still, it offered some dynamic, at least.

On a side-note, I got everyone through alive with all LMs done first go, without any knowledge of those set conditions; simply thought Mr Taylor was the one with the least problems with most everyone, for example, so he led the firing teams.

[Almostfaceman]

AlanC9 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Yeah I lost the crew as well as Mordin on my first run, not looking at any spoilers.

I can understand losing the crew by doing LMs. How'd you lose anyone on the SM with everyone loyal, though? Bad hold-the-line score?

My first run I lost Miranda (non-loyal; couldn't make the dialogue check in the Jack confrontation). Thane also wasn't loyal; I outright botched his LM by watching the wrong guy.

It's been a while, but I think I sent him into the vent area, thinking since he was ex-STG he had experience hacking through stuff while spying.

[AlanC9]

Chashan wrote...

By assigning the "wrong" person for a certain task. Although that seems awfully arbitrary at times; why would Thane not be able to properly cover the one to walk the vents, again?

Because this is a team leadership job and Thane works solo. The real question is why Zaeed isn't a good fit. Though missions he led in the past did have a high casualty rate.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Yeah I lost the crew as well as Mordin on my first run, not looking at any spoilers.

I can understand losing the crew by doing LMs. How'd you lose anyone on the SM with everyone loyal, though? Bad hold-the-line score?

My first run I lost Miranda (non-loyal; couldn't make the dialogue check in the Jack confrontation). Thane also wasn't loyal; I outright botched his LM by watching the wrong guy.

Accepting Jacob's offer to run the vents.

Thinking Garrus can run the vents

Thinking Thane can run the vents

Using Zaeed or Samara to lead the second team

Believing Miranda can hold the biotic bubble

Letting Grunt or Zaeed lead the distraction team

Taking Grunt and Garrus with you to the final showdown while Zaeed leads the crew back.

[Iakus]

StreetMagic wrote...

iakus wrote...
Taking Grunt and Garrus with you to the final showdown while Zaeed leads the crew back.

Zaeed can hold a team of loyals. All you need is one of those soldiers (they all have the same rating, but it drops 1 point if unloyal. That's where it gets a little iffy).

I mean escorting Chakwas and the rest of the crew back, so there are no heavy defenders holding the line;)

[roryw2203]

I think the reason the endings don't work is purely because of an attempted shift from the emotional to the cerebral.

The first two games were mainly emotional experiences and that's why players connected with them to such an extent. When you think about them purely from an intellectual standpoint, there are plot holes, thematic inconsistencies, poor dialogue, etc. But they pull you in emotionally because of the characters, the relationships and the epic scope of the stories. Even down to the sweeping soundtrack that ranges from heartbreaking to awe-inspiring.

This grounding in emotion was the basis for the endings of the first two games also. Shepard striding out from the rubble after defeating Sovereign and Saren. Shepard walking through the Normandy after defeating the collectors and seeing his crew that were by his side through it all (whether they survived or not).

That's why the ending failed. It was based purely in the cerebral and intellectual, which doesn't fit with the other two games or the rest of the game itself.

The Extended cut tried to remedy this by trying to pull some emotion back into the ending. Shepard is now protector of the galaxy. Hackett is now leading the galaxy to rebuild itself. EDI is now 'alive'. Still the damage was done and now we live with it.

[alchemist42]

The devs should have finished the game where shepard activates the console destroying the Reapers. Job done, the hero saves the galaxy, gets the girl and walks off into the sunset on some exotic paradise, that’s how we finish epic fantasies in the West (Hollywood dream), sacrificing oneself for the greater good in a fantasy game is pretentious crap.

This is NOT superficial.  

Escapism and fun is what most people are after, and a happy ending.

Modifié par alchemist42, 21 janvier 2014 - 02:12 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Accepting Jacob's offer to run the vents.

Thinking Garrus can run the vents

Thinking Thane can run the vents

Using Zaeed or Samara to lead the second team

Believing Miranda can hold the biotic bubble

Letting Grunt or Zaeed lead the distraction team

Taking Grunt and Garrus with you to the final showdown while Zaeed leads the crew back.

I actually did the italed one on my second playthrough. Most of the others strike me as just mistakes, except for the last one about HTL  -- though I can see putting Garrus in the vents, since anyone who played ME1 will think of him as a "tech" character.

Not a huge fan of the way the HTL values work. Why is Mordin squshy? His class power gives him more shields. I can see Grunt being good since he regenerates, but most of the scores seem arbitrary. And who dies there really should have been random, but that's a separate issue.

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...
I actually did the italed one on my second playthrough.

I did as well, but in retrospect it's probably a bad idea to put someone in charge of a team whose entire Code has dictated a solitary life.