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The Ending of ME3, time for an objective look


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#201
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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daaaav wrote...

In hindsight, perhaps you can take ego and emotion out of the equation and look at the solutions in a purely analytical way. That certainly wasn't possible at the time I had to make said choice and I would say that the above characterisation was more than justified.


I don't think you even need to take ego and emotion out of it. You just have to be aware of the benefit.

We're talking about the removal of the Reapers. We can't understand that. Unless we were living ME, we won't have a full understanding of what it would mean to be able to end the beings who'd culled the galaxy for millenia. We simply cannot fathom it. If one of us were in the ME-verse, had seen the things Shepard had seen, I'm certain that we as Shepard would not be so concerned about the side-effects like we are.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 12 janvier 2014 - 01:04 .


#202
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iakus wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
I'm saying that you can't simply encapsulate each choice as "holocaust/police state/eugenics." There's more to it than that. And, you can't have your cake and eat it too.


But the state of the cake you get is important


Maybe. But each ending successfully presents a cake with its own benefits.

But I'd prefer to taper down these analogies, we've got like five going already, lol.

#203
Iakus

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BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Now me personally? I always preferred Renegade and thought ME was a bit too nice to the paragons. But I can easily see how a Paragon player wouldn't be too happy with the content/context of the ending decisions, especially for those players who like perfect outcomes (No suicide mission deaths, uniting Geth/Quarians).


As a paragon player, there are sacrifices I'd be willing to pay that would terrify most other players.

But the ones we were given?  No.  Just...no

#204
Almostfaceman

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iakus wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

How are they horrible solutions? I'm genuinely curious.


1) Synthetic holocaust
2) Reaper police state
3) Forced eugenics.

Not to mention forcing Shepard to essentially commit suicide to bring any of these about.

I find all these options gut-churningly horrible.  It turns everyhting my Shepard fought for a lie.  I can say without exageration that if I knew back in 2007 what the Crucible would bring about I never would have bought that first game.

The only "good" outcome to me is if you don't think synthetics are truly alive and have enough headcanon power to imagine Shepard's eventual rescue in Destroy+.  Sorry, that's not me.


Agreed.

#205
MrMrPendragon

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The one weird thing about the ending that I don't understand, but not necessarily bad, is that how in the world was Shepard breathing in the Citadel rubble?

I mean, the whole thing blew up. I imagine most, if not all systems are either shut down or destroyed, which means there are no more mass effect fields or any kind of artificial atmosphere.

And yet, there's still gravity (seeing as Shepard isn't floating away), and Shepard can breathe!

We see that they've rebuilt, and permanently placed the Citadel in Earth's orbit. Doesn't that negate the whole purpose of the breath scene? I mean, we could safely assume they've already found Shepard before they rebuilt the Citadel. In my opinion that should've been removed at EC, and instead replaced with actually showing everyone, including Shepard, being alive and well.

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 12 janvier 2014 - 01:26 .


#206
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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ArcherTactlenecks wrote...

The one weird thing about the ending that I don't understand, but not necessarily bad, is that how in the world was Shepard breathing in the Citadel rubble?

I mean, the whole thing blew up. I imagine most, if not all systems are either shut down or destroyed, which means there are no more mass effect fields or any kind of artificial atmosphere.

And yet, there's still gravity (seeing as Shepard isn't floating away), and Shepard can breathe!

We see that they've rebuilt, and permanently placed the Citadel in Earth's orbit. Doesn't that negate the whole purpose of the breath scene? I mean, we could safely assume they've already found Shepard before they rebuilt the Citadel. In my opinion that should've been removed at EC, and instead replaced with actually showing everyone, including Shepard, being alive and well.


I just watched my BIK files, and the Citadel never explodes. There are explosions ON the Citadel, but nothing widespread. Should be noted that it's after the EC, though.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 12 janvier 2014 - 01:34 .


#207
Iakus

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LinksOcarina wrote...

An acknowledgement that there is an understanding of difference is a good start, I grant you that. Do they have context of what those differences are?


"Anger is an organic response.  We understand the theory, but do not experience it.  We do not judge teh creators' anger with us.  We did them great harm in the Morning War.  Organics fear what is different.  It is a hardware error.  A reflex of your flesh.  We accept the creators' hate.  We hold their world of origin, though we are only caretakers for it." 

"Organic life acts on emotions.  We do not judge them for being true to their nature.  We cannot make them think like us.  Both creators and created must complete thier halves of the equation.  The geth cannot solve for peace alone."

"We have watched organics for over three centuries.  You are plagued by questions of existence.  Why were you created.  What is your purpose in life.  What lies after death.  Organics develop religions and philosophies to provide answers to these questions

"I wouldn't have thought synthetics would be interested in philosophy"

"We are created life.  We are a philosophical issue.  The geth know our answers to these questions.  We were created to labor for the quarians.  Our memories will be archived after death.  We are immortal.  Our gods disowned us.  We must create our own reasons to exist. "

#208
MrMrPendragon

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EntropicAngel wrote...

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...

The one weird thing about the ending that I don't understand, but not necessarily bad, is that how in the world was Shepard breathing in the Citadel rubble?

I mean, the whole thing blew up. I imagine most, if not all systems are either shut down or destroyed, which means there are no more mass effect fields or any kind of artificial atmosphere.

And yet, there's still gravity (seeing as Shepard isn't floating away), and Shepard can breathe!

We see that they've rebuilt, and permanently placed the Citadel in Earth's orbit. Doesn't that negate the whole purpose of the breath scene? I mean, we could safely assume they've already found Shepard before they rebuilt the Citadel. In my opinion that should've been removed at EC, and instead replaced with actually showing everyone, including Shepard, being alive and well.


I just watched my BIK files, and the Citadel never explodes. Should be noted that it's after the EC, though.

Ah, well I've always though that was before EC, ok nevermind that one.

Onwards then...

The Citadel didn't explode in a way similar to a building getting nuked. But it was destroyed.

I just finished ME3 with EC and I picked Destroy (again for the billionth time :P) and the Citadel started having these chain of explosions as the Crucible fired the red beam. All arms of the Citadel were practically disconnected from each other. One arm was even torn to pieces. I don't know, but still, I stand by what I said - with the whole replacing a scene.

#209
AlanC9

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I just pulled up a video, and I didn't see any arm being torn to pieces. The arms separate, sure. The part where Shepard's standing isn't destroyed or anything, though.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 janvier 2014 - 02:02 .


#210
MrMrPendragon

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Ok, I guess where Shepard was standing, which I'm assuming is probably around the Presidium area, (considering the arms are the Wards) still has artificial atmosphere, somehow.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Shepard lived through Destroy, I just wanted to make sense of it all. Although I think Shepard didn't have to stand too close to the power conduit when he shot it :)


EDIT: Ok yeah, you're right. If Shepard was standing by the Citadel tower, which I think he was since that's where the Crucible docked, I guess it makes (enough) sense to make the breath scene possible.



08:18
&
08:22

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 12 janvier 2014 - 02:12 .


#211
somewhatichiban

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Folks, I agree with above sentiments for your three endings but just wanted to end that destroying the mass relays=total collapse of galactic logistics. Then everyone starves.

Or you get Reapers. Glorious Big Brother.

And of course the merge ending. I'm new here but not touching that issue with a 20-foot pole.

#212
mopotter

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txgoldrush wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

spirosz wrote...

The Mods really need to start a new thread where people can still complain about the endings. All these long posts, yet you will still get the new game!


I probably will, though I've never clamed me3 to be a bad game, just the ending. (though the me3 ending was almost bad enough to spoil the game, to me)


 I won't be buying it automatically like I did with the NWN series and I won't pre-order the next few games, which I've done sinced KOTOR, including ME3.     Buying their next game is now something I will have to think about.  I'll have to hear from other people, I trust,  how the game story is, or I'll have to look at sites that give the walk through information so I can see for myself what they have done. :)

I worked hard towards destroying the reapers,  I also worked hard in a couple of games to have Tali and Legion co-operate and was extremely irritated when that didn't matter.  One or the other group died unless you picked synthesis.  If I hadn't gotten them to co-operate, I would have picked synthesis a few times, but on the games where I got them working togehter, i should have been able to destroy the reapers with their help and the ones who made it through the final battle should have been able to work together to rebuild their world if my ems total was as high as I could get it.

For me there are just too many things like that and those, added to the ending with a charred body as the "good" ending, that destroyed any thought I had of pre ordering DA:I even though it's a different group working on it or pre-ordering any other game no matter how good it looks.  And DAI looks very good to me, but I no longer trustt BW's vision.


So you ignored the theme of "victory through sacrifice", that victory does not come without cost.

Sorry, but you are criticizing based off what you want ME3 to be, not for what it is. And you are missing the point of what it is.


Victory through sacrifice is fine for ONE ending.  I have a warden who died,  I also have a warden who encouraged the dark ritual and one who returned to the mage circle and one who is Queen.   I have no problem with Shepard dieing, as long as there is also an option for no doubt Shepard lives, which the charred body does not encourage. I don't even have a problem with synthesis or controle, though I don't trust either of them.
 
My disappointment with ME3 is based on what I expected it to be which was based on past experience with BioWare games.  Without that past history -  ME1 and ME2, JE. DA:O and DA2 and KOTRO all games I enjoyed and still play,  I wouldn't have purchased ME3.  

 ME2 gave me so many options from dieing to saving everyone, which I did twice out of all the games I played from the release date in 2007 to the date I got ME3.   I expected them to continue having my choices count in the ending and it didn't..    

Please don't bother being sorry.  I have all their old games to play.  Maybe be sorry for them since I'm no longer on the pre-order everything they ever come out with no matter what it cost group.  I'm now in the wait and see what they have done group.   If the next game is good I'll get it.  If it isn't what I'm looking for I won't.  But I no longer trust them to make games I will love and replay for years and years.

#213
txgoldrush

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mopotter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

spirosz wrote...

The Mods really need to start a new thread where people can still complain about the endings. All these long posts, yet you will still get the new game!


I probably will, though I've never clamed me3 to be a bad game, just the ending. (though the me3 ending was almost bad enough to spoil the game, to me)


 I won't be buying it automatically like I did with the NWN series and I won't pre-order the next few games, which I've done sinced KOTOR, including ME3.     Buying their next game is now something I will have to think about.  I'll have to hear from other people, I trust,  how the game story is, or I'll have to look at sites that give the walk through information so I can see for myself what they have done. :)

I worked hard towards destroying the reapers,  I also worked hard in a couple of games to have Tali and Legion co-operate and was extremely irritated when that didn't matter.  One or the other group died unless you picked synthesis.  If I hadn't gotten them to co-operate, I would have picked synthesis a few times, but on the games where I got them working togehter, i should have been able to destroy the reapers with their help and the ones who made it through the final battle should have been able to work together to rebuild their world if my ems total was as high as I could get it.

For me there are just too many things like that and those, added to the ending with a charred body as the "good" ending, that destroyed any thought I had of pre ordering DA:I even though it's a different group working on it or pre-ordering any other game no matter how good it looks.  And DAI looks very good to me, but I no longer trustt BW's vision.


So you ignored the theme of "victory through sacrifice", that victory does not come without cost.

Sorry, but you are criticizing based off what you want ME3 to be, not for what it is. And you are missing the point of what it is.


Victory through sacrifice is fine for ONE ending.  I have a warden who died,  I also have a warden who encouraged the dark ritual and one who returned to the mage circle and one who is Queen.   I have no problem with Shepard dieing, as long as there is also an option for no doubt Shepard lives, which the charred body does not encourage. I don't even have a problem with synthesis or controle, though I don't trust either of them.
 
My disappointment with ME3 is based on what I expected it to be which was based on past experience with BioWare games.  Without that past history -  ME1 and ME2, JE. DA:O and DA2 and KOTRO all games I enjoyed and still play,  I wouldn't have purchased ME3.  

 ME2 gave me so many options from dieing to saving everyone, which I did twice out of all the games I played from the release date in 2007 to the date I got ME3.   I expected them to continue having my choices count in the ending and it didn't..    

Please don't bother being sorry.  I have all their old games to play.  Maybe be sorry for them since I'm no longer on the pre-order everything they ever come out with no matter what it cost group.  I'm now in the wait and see what they have done group.   If the next game is good I'll get it.  If it isn't what I'm looking for I won't.  But I no longer trust them to make games I will love and replay for years and years.




You are not getting it,

Choice is not about getting what you want, it is not about wish fulfillment. It can be about choosing the lesser evil.

And once again, you are criticizing ME3 for not giving you what you want, or ending the way you want...that's your problem, you are not seeing WHY it ended the way it did.

Don't play the Witcher series, because none of the choices in those games are about wish fulfillment.

And really, DAO has cop outs and Morrigan's was complete deus ex machina.

#214
dreamgazer

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iakus wrote...

As a paragon player, there are sacrifices I'd be willing to pay that would terrify most other players.


Oh? What sacrifices would "terrify" most other players?

#215
mopotter

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AlanC9 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Not preconceptions... I've played these games over and over, it's the message I took from the themes and lore in the story. If there's one thing the ME3 ending proves, it's that there's a lot of ways to interpret the story. Why do you think people are still bickering about it?


Well, I think we bicker over it because some people will go to any lengths to force the narrative into the shape they want. At least some of you IT guys are honest about it; the guys who pretend to be literalists while making up bad stuff about Control and Synthesis are far worse.


Which is exactly what the people who see nothing wrong at all with the endings are doing.  Telling the ones who don't agree with them that they just don't get it and the endings are perfect - because they liked them.   They can't seem to agree to disagree.     (what does IT guys stand for?)

#216
JamesFaith

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dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

As a paragon player, there are sacrifices I'd be willing to pay that would terrify most other players.


Oh? What sacrifices would "terrify" most other players?


Sacrificing Liara so his Shepard would survive?

Edit: Or worse... Miranda and Jack? Simultaneously?

Modifié par JamesFaith, 12 janvier 2014 - 03:25 .


#217
liggy002

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dreamgazer wrote...


Its still ice cream with poop in it.


Yeah, that's totally objective.



Yeah, it's not objective, because the poop comes in different colors and he didn't specify whether it was red, green, or blue.

#218
liggy002

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EntropicAngel wrote...

ArcherTactlenecks wrote...

The one weird thing about the ending that I don't understand, but not necessarily bad, is that how in the world was Shepard breathing in the Citadel rubble?

I mean, the whole thing blew up. I imagine most, if not all systems are either shut down or destroyed, which means there are no more mass effect fields or any kind of artificial atmosphere.

And yet, there's still gravity (seeing as Shepard isn't floating away), and Shepard can breathe!

We see that they've rebuilt, and permanently placed the Citadel in Earth's orbit. Doesn't that negate the whole purpose of the breath scene? I mean, we could safely assume they've already found Shepard before they rebuilt the Citadel. In my opinion that should've been removed at EC, and instead replaced with actually showing everyone, including Shepard, being alive and well.


I just watched my BIK files, and the Citadel never explodes. There are explosions ON the Citadel, but nothing widespread. Should be noted that it's after the EC, though.


It explodes in the area that Shepard is standing in.

#219
dreamgazer

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liggy002 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...


Its still ice cream with poop in it.


Yeah, that's totally objective.



Yeah, it's not objective, because the poop comes in different colors and he didn't specify whether it was red, green, or blue.


Harbinger ever lift that restraining order, liggy?  

#220
liggy002

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dreamgazer wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...



Its still ice cream with poop in it.


Yeah, that's totally objective.



Yeah, it's not objective, because the poop comes in different colors and he didn't specify whether it was red, green, or blue.


Harbinger ever lift that restraining order, liggy?  


Who?

#221
dreamgazer

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liggy002 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...



Its still ice cream with poop in it.


Yeah, that's totally objective.



Yeah, it's not objective, because the poop comes in different colors and he didn't specify whether it was red, green, or blue.


Harbinger ever lift that restraining order, liggy?  


Who?


Oh, good! You've moved on with your life.  That's wonderful, buddy. A real step in the right direction. 

#222
AlanC9

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somewhatichiban wrote...

Folks, I agree with above sentiments for your three endings but just wanted to end that destroying the mass relays=total collapse of galactic logistics. Then everyone starves.


Everyone starves? That's idiotic. The vast majority of people in the MEU live on garden worlds. Most of the rest live near one.

#223
Iakus

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txgoldrush wrote...

You are not getting it,


Everyone do a shot!

Modifié par iakus, 12 janvier 2014 - 04:23 .


#224
mopotter

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txgoldrush wrote...

mopotter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

spirosz wrote...

The Mods really need to start a new thread where people can still complain about the endings. All these long posts, yet you will still get the new game!


I probably will, though I've never clamed me3 to be a bad game, just the ending. (though the me3 ending was almost bad enough to spoil the game, to me)


 I won't be buying it automatically like I did with the NWN series and I won't pre-order the next few games, which I've done sinced KOTOR, including ME3.     Buying their next game is now something I will have to think about.  I'll have to hear from other people, I trust,  how the game story is, or I'll have to look at sites that give the walk through information so I can see for myself what they have done. :)

I worked hard towards destroying the reapers,  I also worked hard in a couple of games to have Tali and Legion co-operate and was extremely irritated when that didn't matter.  One or the other group died unless you picked synthesis.  If I hadn't gotten them to co-operate, I would have picked synthesis a few times, but on the games where I got them working togehter, i should have been able to destroy the reapers with their help and the ones who made it through the final battle should have been able to work together to rebuild their world if my ems total was as high as I could get it.

For me there are just too many things like that and those, added to the ending with a charred body as the "good" ending, that destroyed any thought I had of pre ordering DA:I even though it's a different group working on it or pre-ordering any other game no matter how good it looks.  And DAI looks very good to me, but I no longer trustt BW's vision.


So you ignored the theme of "victory through sacrifice", that victory does not come without cost.

Sorry, but you are criticizing based off what you want ME3 to be, not for what it is. And you are missing the point of what it is.


Victory through sacrifice is fine for ONE ending.  I have a warden who died,  I also have a warden who encouraged the dark ritual and one who returned to the mage circle and one who is Queen.   I have no problem with Shepard dieing, as long as there is also an option for no doubt Shepard lives, which the charred body does not encourage. I don't even have a problem with synthesis or controle, though I don't trust either of them.
 
My disappointment with ME3 is based on what I expected it to be which was based on past experience with BioWare games.  Without that past history -  ME1 and ME2, JE. DA:O and DA2 and KOTRO all games I enjoyed and still play,  I wouldn't have purchased ME3.  

 ME2 gave me so many options from dieing to saving everyone, which I did twice out of all the games I played from the release date in 2007 to the date I got ME3.   I expected them to continue having my choices count in the ending and it didn't..    

Please don't bother being sorry.  I have all their old games to play.  Maybe be sorry for them since I'm no longer on the pre-order everything they ever come out with no matter what it cost group.  I'm now in the wait and see what they have done group.   If the next game is good I'll get it.  If it isn't what I'm looking for I won't.  But I no longer trust them to make games I will love and replay for years and years.




You are not getting it,

Choice is not about getting what you want, it is not about wish fulfillment. It can be about choosing the lesser evil.

And once again, you are criticizing ME3 for not giving you what you want, or ending the way you want...that's your problem, you are not seeing WHY it ended the way it did.

Don't play the Witcher series, because none of the choices in those games are about wish fulfillment.

And really, DAO has cop outs and Morrigan's was complete deus ex machina.


Sorry this is getting so long.  

This is what irritates me to no end.  I don't "get" it the way you want me to because I don't look at the game the way you do.  That does not mean you're right and I'm wrong.  It means we don't see things the same way. And I'm sorry you don't get that.

I have never been interested in the Witcher series and have no intention of every getting it, or deus ex or probably most of the other games you enjoy, unless you like Fall Out 3 with the BS dlc;  FANV,  Elder Scrolls series, Dragon Dogma or Borderland series.

I bought BioWare games for a specific reason.  Well 3 specific reasons.  I had choices being male or female, a good story and I had endings that I liked.  Every game I've ever played from BioWare gave me at least one ending that was satisfying.   I didn't like the DR, hated it in fact and started romancing Zev because of it, but Zev was a good choice and the endings were satisfying.   I will admit that the ME3 ending has made me no longer hate the DR as much.

 I play video games for fun.  For the super feeling of satisfaction knowing that I destroyed the evil and sometimes my character lives on with or without their LI and sometimes my character dies.  I don't play video games for real life experiences.  I have a real life.  So I'm going to agree to disagree with you and go to bed.

Modifié par mopotter, 12 janvier 2014 - 04:26 .


#225
Iakus

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dreamgazer wrote...

iakus wrote...

As a paragon player, there are sacrifices I'd be willing to pay that would terrify most other players.


Oh? What sacrifices would "terrify" most other players?


I'd have been fine with a permanently disabled relay network.