105 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

I've noticed something about contentious topics on BSN. The Quarian/Geth decision is a subject of constant, often-vicious debate with neither side showing any signs of budging. Synthesis has a cadre of hard-core advocates who take fire from all sides, itself leading to prolonged debates. Yet for the Genophage, one of the central plot arcs spanning the entire trilogy, there is relatively little in the way of prolonged debate. Bioware stats show 92% cure it, even though 64% of players had Wreav in charge, who openly announces his intent to lead another rebellion. I'm just curious why there's so much less debate over this. Is it as simple as Wrex -> Cure, Wreav -> Sabotage for most players? Do people really put that much faith into one person's influence over the entire species? Do a lot of people let the wheel dictate their choice, up=cure=paragon=uragoodboyhaveabiscuit? Or do people simply not care, and cure it so they don't have to shoot Mordin if Eve survived? (I can't remember if Wreav/Eve is the default condition or not).

I've never been called a genocide fetishist over not curing the genophage. Why?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 janvier 2014 - 05:49 .

[cap and gown]

Non-import is: Eve dies, Wreav in charge. And I can tell you why I cure it if Wrex is around: I don't want to kill Wrex. I have killed Mordin. I have also sent him to work on the crucible. But I have never killed Wrex. Probably mostly because I want him on the squad for Citadel. His combat AI is hilarious.

Interestingly, I have never killed Wiks, but only because he has only been in two playthroughs and both of those included Wrex.

[AlanC9]

At the moment Shepard makes the decision, a resurgent krogan empire doesn't seem like an existential threat. They still have no fleet, and not much capacity to get one in the short or medium term. There's time to come up with solutions if there turns out to be a problem. If Shepard knew that the relays would be down for -- years?, decades? centuries? -- the situation would be different.

So my Sheps are willing to take a chance on the krogan, usually. Except in the case of Wrex and Eve both dead. An unrestrained Wreav..... no.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 janvier 2014 - 06:05 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yet for the Genophage, one of the central plot arcs spanning the entire trilogy, there is relatively little in the way of prolonged debate. Bioware stats show 92% cure it, even though 64% of players had Wreav in charge, who openly announces his intent to lead another rebellion.

I think that statistic says it all. At 92% pro-Cure, you're not left with enough fans who feel strongly pro-Genophage to make this a topic for ongoing debate.

Also, players don't have any krogan or salarian waifus they feel compelled to defend.

[Jorji Costava]

My completely unscientific conjecture is that the reason the Quarian/Geth debates become so vicious is because of the ending. The Destroy ending is the only ending that (A) allows you to kill the most hated plot device ever (the Catalyst), and ( allows you to live, but it also wipes out the Geth. Suppose instead of killing the Geth, Destroy wipes out the Krogan; it turns out the Genophage cure is based on Reaper Tech or whatnot, etc. I'd be willing to bet that there'd be any number of threads about how the inherent barbarism of the Krogan means the galaxy is better off without them, with an equal number of threads about how only a total monster of a human being could think such a thing.

My sole bit of evidence for this hypothesis is that it seems like one's Geth/Quarian opinion correlates with one's ending choice. The more pro-destroy you are, the more likely you are to support the Quarians, whereas the more pro-Control or pro-Synthesis you are, the more likely you are to support the Geth. Perhaps it's a little bit like the phenomenon (example taken from here) whereby people who think the death penalty is wrong are likely to think that it's both not a deterrent and also results in the deaths of innocents, whereas pro-death penalty folks will be likely to think both that it's a deterrent and that few innocents are executed, even though these two things have nothing to do with each other.

EDIT: Changed some wording

Modifié par osbornep, 11 janvier 2014 - 06:11 .

[justafan]

My guess would be that it is because the Tuchanka arch is universally loved, with good writing and rather consistent plot. With Genophage, GvQ, and Synthesis, it is true one side is clearly favored and portrayed as the right choice in ME3, however, only in the genophage do you really get a good counterargument. Sure the dalatrass lacks tact, but you are never allowed to forget the Krogan rebellions, and people are quick to point out both sides to the argument.

In GvQ and Synthesis, you really have to rely on previous games, codex entries, or your own logical deductions , to get both sides. The Quarians made a good case for themselves in ME1, 2, the codex and EU, and then promptly forgot how to present a compelling argument come ME3. Same with synthesis, it's presented as the golden ending, peace love and happiness. Nobody questions the numerous unfortunate implications.

When all the information needed to make an informed decision is not presented in the base game itself, I believe both sides will defend their views more forcefully. One argument may be supported by outside information, but those who support the decision ME3 support don't have to look beyond the game itself to claim that their decision is the right one.  It is this disconnect that I think sows dscord.

In short, Tuchanka was well done and gives a valid reason to support both sides. Because both sides are supported in game, there is little room for vociferous argument, and people are free to choose what they feel is right, which in this case seems to be supporting the Krogan.  Or it could just be everybody hates the dalatrass that much and I'm overthinking things.

Modifié par justafan, 11 janvier 2014 - 06:10 .

[MegaIllusiveMan]

I do think that Synthesis got a large discussion because it was an ending.

Discussion- Hate- Love- Doubt- Could I chose another option?- Why didn't I chose?- Was I affected by someone else?- etc,etc,etc

Let's take a look at the other stats:

*64% of players didn't get to meet Wrex in ME3 Campaign
*3.8% players Shot Mordin
*Paragon: (64.5%) VS Renegade (35.5%)

[MassivelyEffective0730]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yet for the Genophage, one of the central plot arcs spanning the entire trilogy, there is relatively little in the way of prolonged debate. Bioware stats show 92% cure it, even though 64% of players had Wreav in charge, who openly announces his intent to lead another rebellion.

I think that statistic says it all. At 92% pro-Cure, you're not left with enough fans who feel strongly pro-Genophage to make this a topic for ongoing debate.

Also, players don't have any krogan or salarian waifus they feel compelled to defend.

Along with what Osborneshep said, this (especially the second statement) is what I believe is the case.

I don't cure the genophage out of love for the Krogan, and I really wish you could better verbalize that. I cure it because I need them for the war effort, and the game won't let me lie to Wrex safely. I completely doubt that he and Eve will be able to make Krogan society any less violent and decadent, and I do believe that the Krogan's inherent barbarism, that is biologically stipulated through the survival of the 'psychotic' genes (caused by the survival of the psychotic Krogan in the old days), makes them an incompatible factor with a stable long-term galaxy post-war. It's Krogan's own fault that their race is dying even with the Genophage. As Mordin says, it's not the Genophage that's killing them, it's their own nihilistic fatalism.

[caradoc2000]

cap and gown wrote...

Non-import is: Eve dies, Wreav in charge.

Unless you use ME3 Genesis.

[DeinonSlayer]

justafan wrote...

My guess would be that it is because the Tuchanka arch is universally loved, with good writing and rather consistent plot. With Genophage, GvQ, and Synthesis, it is true one side is clearly favored and portrayed as the right choice in ME3, however, only in the genophage do you really get a good counterargument. Sure the dalatrass lacks tact, but you are never allowed to forget the Krogan rebellions, and people are quick to point out both sides to the argument.

In GvQ and Synthesis, you really have to rely on previous games, codex entries, or your own logical deductions , to get both sides. The Quarians made a good case for themselves in ME1, 2, the codex and EU, and then promptly forgot how to present a compelling argument come ME3. Same with synthesis, it's presented as the golden ending, peace love and happiness. Nobody questions the numerous unfortunate implications.

When all the information needed to make an informed decision is not presented in the base game itself, I believe both sides will defend their views more forcefully. One argument may be supported by outside information, but those who support the decision ME3 support don't have to look beyond the game itself to claim that their decision is the right one.  It is this disconnect that I think sows dscord.

In short, Tuchanka was well done and gives a valid reason to support both sides. Because both sides are supported in game, there is little room for vociferous argument, and people are free to choose what they feel is right, which in this case seems to be supporting the Krogan.  Or it could just be everybody hates the dalatrass that much and I'm overthinking things.

I think you might be on to something. The writer advocacy for Synthesis and the Geth in ME3 was pretty transparent - the catalyst chamber in the original ending felt like going through a funnel what with Shepard's autodialogue agreeing with glowbrat at every turn (agree that the chaos will come back if you choose destroy, agree that "there will be peace" if you jump in the beam, ugh...)

One thing I thought was interesting was that EDI's reaction to Lieutenant Tolan's harsh view of the Krogan was one of concurrence or opposition depending on whether Wrex was alive. This was the one issue that the writers really seem to have chewed over.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 janvier 2014 - 06:27 .

[General TSAR]

Krogan have always been savage brutes from the nuking of their Homeworld to the Krogan Rebellions, they are a clear and present danger to galactic stability and even a Mutant like Wrex won't be able to prevent them from attempting to annex worlds and star systems when the Krogan population really takes off.

[Obadiah]

All I can say from the full play-through of the trilogy is that the Krogan I encounter don't seem any more prone to violence than the other characters (I particularly enjoyed those interaction with Patriarch and Mr. Thax's associate in ME2). Also, when I finally met Wreave, he just seemed WAY more logical than I'd heard.

The Genophage's use as a weapon to end a war - this I understand. Used to keep an enemy weak and controllable for a 1000 years, and then used to trick them into helping now that we need them again... yeah... the realpolitikers can justify that, I just wasn't having any part of it.

In addition, the Genophage WILL eventually be cured, and the the Krogan WILL eventually find out we lied. I don't see why that scenario be any better for the galaxy for their emergence than curing them, and having them in a relationship where we work together as allies.

[CrutchCricket]

AlanC9 wrote...

At the moment Shepard makes the decision, a resurgent krogan empire doesn't seem like an existential threat. They still have no fleet, and not much capacity to get one in the short or medium term.

It goes quite a bit beyond this. The genophage adjusted fertility rates. Unadjusted, krogan were spawning by the thousands. In the past their natural environment balanced this out since they were also dying by the thousands. Uplifting and giving them modern tech is what allowed them to overpopulate into horde mode and what made them a threat in the Rebellions.

But now they have absolutely zero infrastructure (Tuchanka was a wasteland even before the war) and zero capacity to build one on their own... and now they're back to potentially spawning by the thousands, but this time on a nigh-dead rock. Far from the unilateral save most people think the genophage cure is, if the krogan were to continue in their ways of old, Shepard just doomed their race to a slow starvation. And no one's going to make the mistake of "uplifting" the krogan this time. Especially not after the Reapers where no one but the quarians would have much to spare.

Going beyond that though, I think curing the genophage is the natural step in the arc because it's literally letting natural order back at the helm. In ME2 Mordin says the real problem with the uplifting is the krogan weren't ready. The tech advancement was artificially inserted and it messed with their natural evolution. The genophage on the other hand was a punitive measure but also it only dealt with the symptoms. Curing it at this time takes us back to the root of the problem- can the krogan "grow up" enough to function at the galactic level? And from a pure survivalist standpoint, it's a test. Can they consciously manage their number so as to not lead to their extinction?

In a nutshell I don't think it's much of a debate since the strongest point for the opposition- fear of Rebellions 2.0, simply can't happen with the current details of the situation. And going with the themes of self-determination, it's time for the krogan to choose their own future: peaceful coexistence and advancement, or extinction.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 11 janvier 2014 - 06:36 .

[von uber]

CrutchCricket wrote...


Going beyond that though, I think curing the genophage is the natural step in the arc because it's literally letting natural order back at the helm. In ME2 Mordin says the real problem with the uplifting is the krogan weren't ready. The tech advancement was artificially inserted and it messed with their natural evolution. The genophage on the other hand was a punitive measure but also it only dealt with the symptoms. Curing it at this time takes us back to the root of the problem- can the krogan "grow up" enough to function at the galactic level? And from a pure survivalist standpoint, it's a test. Can they consciously manage their number so as to not lead to their extinction?

In a nutshell I don't think it's much of a debate since the strongest point for the opposition- fear of Rebellions 2.0, simply can't happen with the current details of the situation. And going with the themes of self-determination, it's time for the krogan to choose their own future: peaceful coexistence and advancement, or extinction.

Intersting, especially when it comes to self determination - however, does that not fly in the face of people subsequently choosing Synthesis (which removes the right for self determination)?

[Almostfaceman]

Obadiah wrote...

In addition, the Genophage WILL eventually be cured, and the the Krogan WILL eventually find out we lied. I don't see why that scenario be any better for the galaxy for their emergence than curing them, and having them in a relationship where we work together as allies.

Good point. 

[CrutchCricket]

von uber wrote...
Intersting, especially when it comes to self determination - however, does that not fly in the face of people subsequently choosing Synthesis (which removes the right for self determination)?

Yes, well... synthesis.

The less said about that particular toss up the better.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 11 janvier 2014 - 07:40 .

[AlanC9]

osbornep wrote...

My sole bit of evidence for this hypothesis is that it seems like one's Geth/Quarian opinion correlates with one's ending choice. The more pro-destroy you are, the more likely you are to support the Quarians, whereas the more pro-Control or pro-Synthesis you are, the more likely you are to support the Geth. Perhaps it's a little bit like the phenomenon (example taken from here) whereby people who think the death penalty is wrong are likely to think that it's both not a deterrent and also results in the deaths of innocents, whereas pro-death penalty folks will be likely to think both that it's a deterrent and that few innocents are executed, even though these two things have nothing to do with each other.

I don't have a huge problem with this reasoning, but note that pro-quarian is a relatively unpopular position among the general player population. (27% quarians, 37% geth, 36% peace).

Perhaps destroy isn't all that popular either; it's very popular on the BSN, but that proves little.

Incidentally, anyone ever notice that the 36% of players who made peace is exactly the same as the percentage of players who got to meet Wrex in ME3? Did every single player who imported import an optimal save?

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 janvier 2014 - 07:52 .

[nos_astra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
It goes quite a bit beyond this. The genophage adjusted fertility rates. Unadjusted, krogan were spawning by the thousands. In the past their natural environment balanced this out since they were also dying by the thousands. Uplifting and giving them modern tech is what allowed them to overpopulate into horde mode and what made them a threat in the Rebellions.

...

In a nutshell I don't think it's much of a debate since the strongest point for the opposition- fear of Rebellions 2.0, simply can't happen with the current details of the situation. And going with the themes of self-determination, it's time for the krogan to choose their own future: peaceful coexistence and advancement, or extinction.

This has to be the most compelling argument for curing the genophage ever.

But it requires me to predict the state the future galaxy will be in. One ship and a few krogan females may be enough to become problematic.

[Reigned]

knucks360 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

All I can say from the full play-through of the trilogy is that the Krogan I encounter don't seem any more prone to violence than the other characters (I particularly enjoyed those interaction with Patriarch and Mr. Thax's associate in ME2). Also, when I finally met Wreave, he just seemed WAY more logical than I'd heard.

The Genophage's use as a weapon to end a war - this I understand. Used to keep an enemy weak and controllable for a 1000 years, and then used to trick them into helping now that we need them again... yeah... the realpolitikers can justify that, I just wasn't having any part of it.

In addition, the Genophage WILL eventually be cured, and the the Krogan WILL eventually find out we lied. I don't see why that scenario be any better for the galaxy for their emergence than curing them, and having them in a relationship where we work together as allies.

This. As Primarch Victus said "I'd rather have a grateful ally rather than a resentful enemy."

^Yes. I tend to believe that the Krogan would much rather be grateful to know that the galaxy hasn't given up on them, enough to have cured them after back burning and forgetting them for millenia. Opposed to them finding out the genophage on their own, ONLY because they realized that the galatic populous has manipulated them once again...the latter I believe would spark yet another Krogan Rebellion. To right the wrongs of the galaxy who thought they were fools...

[CrutchCricket]

klarabella wrote...
One ship and a few krogan females may be enough to become problematic.

And what will that one ship do? The krogan didn't threaten the galaxy with headbuts and backhands. They had ships and weapons and armor and all the support for those things. They had food to feed their soldiers, medical supplies to heal them. Where are all those things going to magically come from now? In addition to the general scarcity after the war and the fact that no one's going to be dumb enough to give them enough of those things, the root of the problem is still that they were given those things before. They didn't earn them, or in more practical speak, they have not mastered procuring them for themselves. Who are the krogan shipbuilders, the technicians, the doctors, and yes even the farmers? I know of precisely one krogan mechanic and one krogan scientist, and the latter had help from the Collectors.

[Reigned]

CrutchCricket wrote...

klarabella wrote...
One ship and a few krogan females may be enough to become problematic.

And what will that one ship do? The krogan didn't threaten the galaxy with headbuts and backhands. They had ships and weapons and armor and all the support for those things. They had food to feed their soldiers, medical supplies to heal them. Where are all those things going to magically come from now? In addition to the general scarcity after the war and the fact that no one's going to be dumb enough to give them enough of those things, the root of the problem is still that they were given those things before. They didn't earn them, or in more practical speak, they have not mastered procuring them for themselves. Who are the krogan shipbuilders, the technicians, the doctors, and yes even the farmers? I know of precisely one krogan mechanic and one krogan scientist, and the latter had help from the Collectors.

Even Wrex himself tells Shepard in ME1, that 'when was the last time you seen a Krogan Scientist? You ask a Krogan whether he will try to save his race or fight for credits, they'll choose credits everytime.' After the Genophage is cured, It will take many many years for Tuchanka and the Krogan to reach the level of advancement of lets say the Humans, Asari or the Salarians. In this time they can begin to see the importance of their existence, learn from their previous mistakes and procure their future by the right means...

[DeinonSlayer]

Reigned wrote...

After the Genophage is cured, It will take many many years for Tuchanka and the Krogan to reach the level of advancement of lets say the Humans, Asari or the Salarians. In this time they can begin to see the importance of their existence, learn from their previous mistakes and procure their future by the right means...

Lots of optimism going behind that conclusion. Last I checked, they're still shooting each over pyjack meat in a post-nuclear wasteland. Now there will be many, many more mouths to feed.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 11 janvier 2014 - 08:16 .

[Reigned]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Reigned wrote...

After the Genophage is cured, It will take many many years for Tuchanka and the Krogan to reach the level of advancement of lets say the Humans, Asari or the Salarians. In this time they can begin to see the importance of their existence, learn from their previous mistakes and procure their future by the right means...

Lots of optimism going behind that conclusion. Last I checked, they're still shooting each over pyjack meat in a post-nuclear wasteland.

Yeah it is quite a bit of optimism for them, however, even as advanced as every other race in the game is, you still find Salarians, Asari, Turians and Humans willing to kill over credits and power...

[nos_astra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

klarabella wrote...
One ship and a few krogan females may be enough to become problematic.

And what will that one ship do?

What will the krogan on this ship do? Look for ressources and reproduce like rabbits.