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[General TSAR]

Obadiah wrote...
In addition, the Genophage WILL eventually be cured, and the the Krogan WILL eventually find out we lied.

Then simply kill them all with a weaponized pathogen that only targets Krogan.

Modifié par General TSAR, 11 janvier 2014 - 08:58 .

[Daemul]

Obadiah wrote...

In addition, the Genophage WILL eventually be cured

The Salarians will never allow this to happen

AlanC9 wrote...

Incidentally, anyone ever notice that the 36% of players who made peace is exactly the same as the percentage of players who got to meet Wrex in ME3? Did every single player who imported import an optimal save?

I had Wrex alive and I still sabotaged it. I remember some ME1 stats from the old Bioware forums where it showed that Wrex that died on Virmire in 60% of playthroughs. I've been trying to find these stats for a couple of years now, but they seem to have vanished off the internet. 

Modifié par Daemul, 11 janvier 2014 - 09:07 .

[Almostfaceman]

General TSAR wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
In addition, the Genophage WILL eventually be cured, and the the Krogan WILL eventually find out we lied.

Then simply kill them all with a weaponized pathogen that only targets Krogan.

Right, it's as simple as that. So, it doesn't really matter if we cure the genophage, because the Krogan are stupid and we can take them out any time afterwards with ease.  <_<

I'm pro-cure-genophage, though. Solutions to problems should be more pro-life than pro-death. Give 'em a chance, they've paid for their mistakes.

[Obadiah]

General TSAR wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
In addition, the Genophage WILL eventually be cured, and the the Krogan WILL eventually find out we lied.

Then simply kill them all with a weaponized pathogen that only targets Krogan.

...unless their emergence from the Genophage is preceded by them firing one at us first.

Modifié par Obadiah, 11 janvier 2014 - 09:15 .

[Almostfaceman]

Daemul wrote...

The Salarians will never allow this to happen

The Salarians are not onmipotent and the Krogan have already adapted to the genophage once that we know of.

[shodiswe]

osbornep wrote...

My completely unscientific conjecture is that the reason the Quarian/Geth debates become so vicious is because of the ending. The Destroy ending is the only ending that (A) allows you to kill the most hated plot device ever (the Catalyst), and ( allows you to live, but it also wipes out the Geth. Suppose instead of killing the Geth, Destroy wipes out the Krogan; it turns out the Genophage cure is based on Reaper Tech or whatnot, etc. I'd be willing to bet that there'd be any number of threads about how the inherent barbarism of the Krogan means the galaxy is better off without them, with an equal number of threads about how only a total monster of a human being could think such a thing.

My sole bit of evidence for this hypothesis is that it seems like one's Geth/Quarian opinion correlates with one's ending choice. The more pro-destroy you are, the more likely you are to support the Quarians, whereas the more pro-Control or pro-Synthesis you are, the more likely you are to support the Geth. Perhaps it's a little bit like the phenomenon (example taken from here) whereby people who think the death penalty is wrong are likely to think that it's both not a deterrent and also results in the deaths of innocents, whereas pro-death penalty folks will be likely to think both that it's a deterrent and that few innocents are executed, even though these two things have nothing to do with each other.

EDIT: Changed some wording

I belive the Catalyst dies in all endings except for refuse.

The Citadel and relays explode in Synthesis= dead Catalyst. 
When you talk to the Catalyst about Control youre told it will be deleted and replaced, it wasn't looking forward to that.
The Catalyst dies no matter what, except if you refuse, then the next cycle might kill it somehow. 

[Daemul]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Daemul wrote...

The Salarians will never allow this to happen

The Salarians are not onmipotent and the Krogan have already adapted to the genophage once that we know of.

Too bad Bioware seem to have forgotten this and instead have the Krogan go extinct if you don't cure the genophage. Apparently, them adjusting to the genophage the first time was a fluke. 

[RandomGuy96]

For the quarian/geth conflict, a nearly equal number were able to make peace or had to side with the geth (36/37), while a slightly lesser number had to side with the quarians (27). There's no real wide scale favor one way or the other. With the genophage plot, on the other hand, over 90% chose to cure it. As said, you can't really have an argument when everyone agrees.

But why do they agree? Probably because, it's unlike the geth/quarian conflict, where both sides are guilty of atrocities and you meet sympathetic and reasonable characters supporting all sides of the argument, making you want everyone to get along and seeing both options as reasonable if the chips have to go down. With the genophage you just get a douche whining at you. No one bothers to bring up the real issues (inevitable overpopulation), instead focusing on the issue of the krogan starting another war... which is absolutely silly, as they have no fleet or resource base. I wonder how many players realized that; there's no real point to not curing the genophage. If the krogan get uppity, you can simply bomb them. Also, in general, the quarians and geth seem much more important to the story than the krogan. That's my take on it anyway. 

ME3 really lacked tact when dealing with these two plotlines, even if getting the best ending to both of them was extremely emotionally satisfying.

EDIT: I also notice that both debates, even if one subject is a much more common one than the other, tend to bring out the worst in people. I've only recently began to understand what people mean when they say that reading internet comments makes them "lose their faith in humanity". 

Modifié par RandomGuy96, 11 janvier 2014 - 09:27 .

[Almostfaceman]

Daemul wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Daemul wrote...

The Salarians will never allow this to happen

The Salarians are not onmipotent and the Krogan have already adapted to the genophage once that we know of.

Too bad Bioware seem to have forgotten this and instead have the Krogan go extinct if you don't cure the genophage. Apparently, them adjusting to the genophage the first time was a fluke. 

Yeah, it is too bad Bioware made yet another bad call. 

[General TSAR]

Almostfaceman wrote...
Right, it's as simple as that. So, it doesn't really matter if we cure the genophage, because the Krogan are stupid and we can take them out any time afterwards with ease.  <_<

Pretty much, ask the STG or Cerberus's Biological Reseach Divison(if they are still intact) to create a lethal microorganism(if they don't have one already in storage) that flourishes inside a Krogan Host and volla, the Krogan join their insect rivals in hell.

I'm pro-cure-genophage, though. Solutions to problems should be more pro-life than pro-death. Give 'em a chance, they've paid for their mistakes.

Nope.

High birthrate followed by species-wide bloodlust and history of destruction and attempted annexation says they must die, sorry Wrex.

[Almostfaceman]

General TSAR wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
Right, it's as simple as that. So, it doesn't really matter if we cure the genophage, because the Krogan are stupid and we can take them out any time afterwards with ease.  <_<

Pretty much, ask the STG or Cerberus's Biological Reseach Divison(if they are still intact) to create a lethal microorganism(if they don't have one already in storage) that flourishes inside a Krogan Host and volla, the Krogan join their insect rivals in hell.

I'm pro-cure-genophage, though. Solutions to problems should be more pro-life than pro-death. Give 'em a chance, they've paid for their mistakes.

Nope.

High birthrate followed by species-wide bloodlust and history of destruction and attempted annexation says they must die, sorry Wrex.

Nope, the Krogan learn from their mistakes, enlist pro-cure-genophage Salarians to counter any biological attacks, and space magic history doesn't repeat itself.

And...

Nope, your answer to the Krogan is too callous.

[RandomGuy96]

>make thread wondering why there are few genophage arguments
>thread spawns a genophage argument
>just as "I lost my faith in humanity"-esque as most geth/quarian 'debates'

What have you done, OP?

[Daemul]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Daemul wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Daemul wrote...

The Salarians will never allow this to happen

The Salarians are not onmipotent and the Krogan have already adapted to the genophage once that we know of.

Too bad Bioware seem to have forgotten this and instead have the Krogan go extinct if you don't cure the genophage. Apparently, them adjusting to the genophage the first time was a fluke. 

Yeah, it is too bad Bioware made yet another bad call. 

That's what happens when you try and create "feelz" instead of using logic. Sabotaging the genophage should never lead to Krogan extinction, especially since they have adapted to it before. Unless the Salarians keep on creating new variatians of the genophage to counteract this every time, but this is never suggested.

I still do laugh at the notion that the krogan are incapable of surving with a one child per female birth rate whilst the other races, who all have the exact same birthrate, are doing fine. I bet even if they genophage was adjusted to 50% fertility(500 children per female) the Krogan would somehow STILL be dying out. It's all or nothing, nothing in between, It's absolutely ridiculous. 

Modifié par Daemul, 11 janvier 2014 - 09:39 .

[Daemul]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nope, the Krogan learn from their mistakes, enlist pro-cure-genophage Salarians to counter any biological attacks, and space magic history doesn't repeat itself.

There are no pro-cure Salarians left if you kill Wiks remember? He tells you he is alone in his views and how everyone in the STG has given him the cold shoulder ever since he began helping the Krogan. 

[AlexMBrennan]

Do a lot of people let the wheel dictate their choice, up=cure=paragon=uragoodboyhaveabiscuit?

Probably

Is it as simple as Wrex -> Cure, Wreav -> Sabotage for most players?

Well, it shouldn't be given that there is no guarantee that Wrex will even survive the Reaper war.

Personally, I chose to cure the genophage for a simple reason: Hacket wants the turian fleet (NOT salerian support), and to get that we need to cure the genophage - there is no guarantee that the deception will fool the krogan, or that the Hacket will be able to make any use of the salerian support that the dalatrass offers.

Any threat the krogan might pose in the future can be dealt with after the Reapers are defeated (the salerians "fixed" the problem once, so they'll probably be able to do so again and if that doesn't work the krogan don't have a fleet and will be sitting ducks whilst the turians blow up the planet from orbit)

[RandomGuy96]

^^^
I agree with that. Wrex points out in the first game that they wouldn't even need to cure it if the krogan would just stop shooting each other. Yet he abandons that in favor of "CURE THE GENOPHAGE RIGHT NOW OR I LET MILLIONS DIE" in the third game. One reason he dropped from his spot of my fourth favorite squadmate after the third game, though with the Citadel DLC he at least rose up to number fiveB)

Honestly, with the futuristic medical technology plus absurdly long lifespans, it's kind of ridiculous that the krogan population isn't still booming with one child per birth.

But like I said, there's no risk to really curing it. And since the game portrays it as all or nothing ANYWAY, you may as well just cure it.

Interestingly, the geth/quarian conflict also has a pretty much objectively better third option, whereas the genophage plot really doesn't.

Modifié par RandomGuy96, 11 janvier 2014 - 09:41 .

[Obadiah]

Well, the Genophage is a psychological attack as well. The other races don't have to deal with a pile of dead/stillborn babies for their one surviving.

Modifié par Obadiah, 11 janvier 2014 - 09:44 .

[Daemul]

Obadiah wrote...

Well, the Genophage is a psychological attack as well. The other races don't have to deal with a pile of dead/stillborn babies for their one surviving.

I'm going to go off topic here but has anyone else wondered what scrambled Krogan egg would taste like? No? Only me?

>.>

<.<

......

Quickly moving on, the Krogan should be greatful that the Turians showed unusual mercy and didn't wipe them out after the Rebellions, especially after the things they had done. Javik was right,  there was no need for the Genophage. 

Modifié par Daemul, 11 janvier 2014 - 09:54 .

[CrutchCricket]

klarabella wrote...
What will the krogan on this ship do? Look for ressources and reproduce like rabbits.

Did you happen to read the rest of my post? Resources aren't magic. You need to know what to do with them. And incidentally, they need to also be there for you to find. Post-war, that's not as given as it once was.

[Reigned]

Daemul wrote...

I'm going to go off topic here but has anyone else wondered what scrambled Krogan egg would taste like? No? Only me?

>.>

<.<

......

Lol, I laughed at this harder than I should have...

[shodiswe]

justafan wrote...


In GvQ and Synthesis, you really have to rely on previous games, codex entries, or your own logical deductions , to get both sides. The Quarians made a good case for themselves in ME1, 2, the codex and EU, and then promptly forgot how to present a compelling argument come ME3. Same with synthesis, it's presented as the golden ending, peace love and happiness. Nobody questions the numerous unfortunate implications.

When all the information needed to make an informed decision is not presented in the base game itself, I believe both sides will defend their views more forcefully. One argument may be supported by outside information, but those who support the decision ME3 support don't have to look beyond the game itself to claim that their decision is the right one.  It is this disconnect that I think sows dscord.

.

The information given in ME1 an 2 regarding the Geth Quarian conflict is just Quarian propaganda that young Quarians are taught in school and Gerrel jugend camps.
Legion did tell you some of it in ME 2 and even more in ME3. Some may call it Geth propaganda. But not even the Quarians question the fact that they were the ones who decided to shut down or kill all geth permanently, either electronicly or by gunshot before any Geth had performed a single hostile action. That was also after the Geth had started asking questions and interact in ways that mindless tools don't.

The Quarians started the Morning war, and they started the war in ME3 in the middle of a Reaper invasion and they had been planing it since before the Reapers hit. They still went through with it while the galaxy was facing extinction because their ancient hatred and propaganda was so strong.

That makes the Quarians the badguys in my book. I tend to go for peace because it seems right. But I would probably pick the Geth otherwise. Even if the Geth has their own bagage. It's just feels right.
Their actions and what they say is what makes me feel this way.
I'm not taking into account wether one is alive or not.

One is acting in selfdefence when attacked, the other is constantly trying to get a gun to erradicate the first guys species and is fueled by generations of hate Propaganda.
My choices and opinions are based on what we learn about this conflict throughout these 3 games.

The pro-Quarian arguments are clearly biased waifu arguments.

[Daemul]

Reigned wrote...

Daemul wrote...

I'm going to go off topic here but has anyone else wondered what scrambled Krogan egg would taste like? No? Only me?

>.>

<.<

......

Lol, I laughed at this harder than I should have...

Hey man, we gotta figure out what to do with those other 999 krogan eggs, we might as well make them into a delicacy. No one needs to know what it is they're eating though. 

[Daemul]

shodiswe wrote...

justafan wrote...


In GvQ and Synthesis, you really have to rely on previous games, codex entries, or your own logical deductions , to get both sides. The Quarians made a good case for themselves in ME1, 2, the codex and EU, and then promptly forgot how to present a compelling argument come ME3. Same with synthesis, it's presented as the golden ending, peace love and happiness. Nobody questions the numerous unfortunate implications.

When all the information needed to make an informed decision is not presented in the base game itself, I believe both sides will defend their views more forcefully. One argument may be supported by outside information, but those who support the decision ME3 support don't have to look beyond the game itself to claim that their decision is the right one.  It is this disconnect that I think sows dscord.

.

The information given in ME1 an 2 regarding the Geth Quarian conflict is just Quarian propaganda that young Quarians are taught in school and Gerrel jugend camps.
Legion did tell you some of it in ME 2 and even more in ME3. Some may call it Geth propaganda. But not even the Quarians question the fact that they were the ones who decided to shut down or kill all geth permanently, either electronicly or by gunshot before any Geth had performed a single hostile action. That was also after the Geth had started asking questions and interact in ways that mindless tools don't.

The Quarians started the Morning war, and they started the war in ME3 in the middle of a Reaper invasion and they had been planing it since before the Reapers hit. They still went through with it while the galaxy was facing extinction because their ancient hatred and propaganda was so strong.

That makes the Quarians the badguys in my book. I tend to go for peace because it seems right. But I would probably pick the Geth otherwise. Even if the Geth has their own bagage. It's just feels right.
Their actions and what they say is what makes me feel this way.
I'm not taking into account wether one is alive or not.

One is acting in selfdefence when attacked, the other is constantly trying to get a gun to erradicate the first guys species and is fueled by generations of hate Propaganda.
My choices and opinions are based on what we learn about this conflict throughout these 3 games.

The pro-Quarian arguments are clearly biased waifu arguments.

IT BEGINS

[shodiswe]

RandomGuy96 wrote...

^^^
I agree with that. Wrex points out in the first game that they wouldn't even need to cure it if the krogan would just stop shooting each other. Yet he abandons that in favor of "CURE THE GENOPHAGE RIGHT NOW OR I LET MILLIONS DIE" in the third game. One reason he dropped from his spot of my fourth favorite squadmate after the third game, though with the Citadel DLC he at least rose up to number fiveB)

Honestly, with the futuristic medical technology plus absurdly long lifespans, it's kind of ridiculous that the krogan population isn't still booming with one child per birth.

But like I said, there's no risk to really curing it. And since the game portrays it as all or nothing ANYWAY, you may as well just cure it.

Interestingly, the geth/quarian conflict also has a pretty much objectively better third option, whereas the genophage plot really doesn't.

I'm not sure what a third genophage option would look like.... Something that changed the krogans to remove stillbirths but only allow each female to get pregnant with one ofspring once every Century?
Less suffering and birthcontrol?

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 janvier 2014 - 10:13 .