105 réponses à ce sujet

[General TSAR]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Nope, the Krogan learn from their mistakes,

They failed and now represent a direct threat to Galactic Civilizations.

enlist pro-cure-genophage Salarians to counter any biological attacks,

A handful of Salarians in primitive hospitals vs. the STG and the Salarian Union.

Hmm.

Nope, your answer to the Krogan is too callous.

(Shrugs)

[General TSAR]

shodiswe wrote...

The information given in ME1 an 2 regarding the Geth Quarian conflict is just Quarian propaganda that young Quarians are taught in school and Gerrel jugend camps.

Congratulations, you just killed your entire post with this one sentence. 

[shodiswe]

knucks360 wrote...

Daemul wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

justafan wrote...


In GvQ and Synthesis, you really have to rely on previous games, codex entries, or your own logical deductions , to get both sides. The Quarians made a good case for themselves in ME1, 2, the codex and EU, and then promptly forgot how to present a compelling argument come ME3. Same with synthesis, it's presented as the golden ending, peace love and happiness. Nobody questions the numerous unfortunate implications.

When all the information needed to make an informed decision is not presented in the base game itself, I believe both sides will defend their views more forcefully. One argument may be supported by outside information, but those who support the decision ME3 support don't have to look beyond the game itself to claim that their decision is the right one.  It is this disconnect that I think sows dscord.

.

The information given in ME1 an 2 regarding the Geth Quarian conflict is just Quarian propaganda that young Quarians are taught in school and Gerrel jugend camps.
Legion did tell you some of it in ME 2 and even more in ME3. Some may call it Geth propaganda. But not even the Quarians question the fact that they were the ones who decided to shut down or kill all geth permanently, either electronicly or by gunshot before any Geth had performed a single hostile action. That was also after the Geth had started asking questions and interact in ways that mindless tools don't.

The Quarians started the Morning war, and they started the war in ME3 in the middle of a Reaper invasion and they had been planing it since before the Reapers hit. They still went through with it while the galaxy was facing extinction because their ancient hatred and propaganda was so strong.

That makes the Quarians the badguys in my book. I tend to go for peace because it seems right. But I would probably pick the Geth otherwise. Even if the Geth has their own bagage. It's just feels right.
Their actions and what they say is what makes me feel this way.
I'm not taking into account wether one is alive or not.

One is acting in selfdefence when attacked, the other is constantly trying to get a gun to erradicate the first guys species and is fueled by generations of hate Propaganda.
My choices and opinions are based on what we learn about this conflict throughout these 3 games.

The pro-Quarian arguments are clearly biased waifu arguments.

IT BEGINS

I can already feel the ground shaking.

Nah, already been there, done that.
It had to be said once,  as someone who has played all games and DLCs, I don't agree with is person who's on a waifu protection mode.

I've seen people in RL who are protecting their waifus no matter how totaly wrong it is. But to them there is likely nothing the waifu can do that they would condem.
Then it's no longer about being right or wrong but rather someone with a strong bias.
I hope Bioware stops killing of whole species just to make choices seem significant.

[General TSAR]

shodiswe wrote...
Nah, already been there, done that.
It had to be said once,  as someone who has played all games and DLCs, I don't agree with is person who's on a toaster protection mode.

I've seen people in RL who are protecting their toasters no matter how totaly wrong it is. But to them there is likely nothing the toaster can do that they would condem.
Then it's no longer about being right or wrong but rather someone with a strong bias.
I hope Bioware keeps destroying toasters just to make choices seem significant.

[shodiswe]

General TSAR wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The information given in ME1 an 2 regarding the Geth Quarian conflict is just Quarian propaganda that young Quarians are taught in school and Gerrel jugend camps.

Congratulations, you just killed your entire post with this one sentence. 

But it's how it works, Tali mentions it herself. And about how she was starting to have doubts about what they taught her as a kid.

[RatThing]

What are you talking about? Tali is favouring peace in ME3. The pro Quarian arguments are not waifu protection.

[RandomGuy96]

Oh god not this **** again.
Pro-quarian arguments are all waifu defense arguments. Yeah. Sure. They have nothing to do with the geth committing a brutal genocide, or the geth murdering everyone who comes into contact with them, or the geth making negotiations completely impossible with said murdering, or the geth not lifting a finger while their bretheren went off to slaughter organics, or the quarians being now largely composed of misguided refugees who just want their planet back and are willing to drop all hostilities of the geth would stop being dicks for five seconds (really, the "peace" ending just requires the sides stop being instantly hostile for one instant), or the geth not simply leaving Rannoch, a planet they explicitly don't need while the quarians are doomed without, or no one having any way of knowing that the geth aren't all killbots due to said murdering and genocidal fringe group, or the geth cutting off the only mildly successful attempt at negotiation. 

Modifié par RandomGuy96, 11 janvier 2014 - 10:38 .

[shodiswe]

I'm not taking any more of this bating. All has been said and done already in other threads.

[General TSAR]

shodiswe wrote...

But it's how it works, Tali mentions it herself. And about how she was starting to have doubts about what they taught her as a kid.

Sold Pinoccio to TIM, Tali stopped being a moron.

Win-Win.

Modifié par General TSAR, 11 janvier 2014 - 10:34 .

[justafan]

knucks360 wrote...

Daemul wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The information given in ME1 an 2 regarding the Geth Quarian conflict is just Quarian propaganda that young Quarians are taught in school and Gerrel jugend camps.
Legion did tell you some of it in ME 2 and even more in ME3. Some may call it Geth propaganda. But not even the Quarians question the fact that they were the ones who decided to shut down or kill all geth permanently, either electronicly or by gunshot before any Geth had performed a single hostile action. That was also after the Geth had started asking questions and interact in ways that mindless tools don't.

The Quarians started the Morning war, and they started the war in ME3 in the middle of a Reaper invasion and they had been planing it since before the Reapers hit. They still went through with it while the galaxy was facing extinction because their ancient hatred and propaganda was so strong.

That makes the Quarians the badguys in my book. I tend to go for peace because it seems right. But I would probably pick the Geth otherwise. Even if the Geth has their own bagage. It's just feels right.
Their actions and what they say is what makes me feel this way.
I'm not taking into account wether one is alive or not.

One is acting in selfdefence when attacked, the other is constantly trying to get a gun to erradicate the first guys species and is fueled by generations of hate Propaganda.
My choices and opinions are based on what we learn about this conflict throughout these 3 games.

The pro-Quarian arguments are clearly biased waifu arguments.

IT BEGINS

I can already feel the ground shaking.

Must.... Resist..... URGE..... to BITE!!!!11!!1!



But seriously, I left the QvG description intentionally vague (even though I have a preference) to avoid just this type of argument on a Krogan-centric page.  I still recall how even serious Genophage discussions would more often the not become QvG debate even if they were not mentioned in the OP at all.

[RandomGuy96]

shodiswe wrote...

I'm not taking any more of this bating.

You came into a krogan-centric thread, brought the geth/quarian conflict up out of nowhere, called one side the bad guys, insulted everyone who didn't side with the geth by insisting they were all just trying to defend their waifus and nothing else, and you think others are the ones who are baiting? 

Modifié par RandomGuy96, 11 janvier 2014 - 10:39 .

[shodiswe]

RatThing wrote...

What are you talking about? Tali is favouring peace in ME3. The pro Quarian arguments are not waifu protection.

She has her doubts about the Quarian ways if thats the stance Shepard takes.
While she wanted to prevent the war before it started her loyalty was to the fleet and admiralty.
After the war started Shepard is the onlyone persuing a peaceful resolution, if Shepard chooses to do so.
Tali is more openminded than most Quarians however given her exposure to other cultures, crew, and even a Geth named Legion that could tell her their version of the story.

[RatThing]

As for the OP, I don't really have a strong opinion on the genophage either. (Well, I don't really like it much, and the consequences of an unchecked Krogan population seem to be kind of nebulous.) Maybe it's because humanity is uninvolved in this. It seems to be a problem between the Krogans and the Salarians + Turians primarily. Perhaps there would be more arguments if you had to make a similar decision for the Batarians

[RatThing]

General TSAR wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

But it's how it works, Tali mentions it herself. And about how she was starting to have doubts about what they taught her as a kid.

Sold Pinoccio to TIM, Tali stopped being a moron.

Win-Win.

She still thinks the war is stupid, but at least you can shut her up about "murdering a friend" with this. (I wanted to throw her off the cliff myself there)  

[RatThing]

RandomGuy96 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I'm not taking any more of this bating.

You came into a krogan-centric thread, brought the geth/quarian conflict up out of nowhere, called one side the bad guys, insulted everyone who didn't side with the geth by insisting they were all just trying to defend their waifus and nothing else, and you think others are the ones who are baiting? 

+

[shodiswe]

RandomGuy96 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I'm not taking any more of this bating.

You came into a krogan-centric thread, brought the geth/quarian conflict up out of nowhere, called one side the bad guys, insulted everyone who didn't side with the geth by insisting they were all just trying to defend their waifus and nothing else, and you think others are the ones who are baiting? 

No, I commented on another post that brought it up. Surely you didn't miss that post.
Also, I'm sure you can see what bating I'm refering to. One that doesn't deserve a response since it's clearly a trolling atempt. If you want to debate the origin of my reply and quotes referencing the response arn't enough then feel free to PM me.

[RandomGuy96]

I didn't. The post however was not like yours. It described the differences between the conflicts by saying that the sides had decent points, yet you had to rely on deduction and codex reading in one game; it didn't even take a real side on the issue. Yet you just had to come in and say "NO UH UH ONLY ONE SIDE DID THE OTHER ARE BAD GUYS AND EVERYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE JUST WANTS TO DEFEND THEIR WAIFU".

I do see it. However, throwing out bait for other unrelated people by blatantly insulting them (i.e. everyone who would side with the quarians if they had to choose one), calling them "biased" and only "pro-waifu" is not a good thing to do even if you think someone else was baiting first. Even though, if you're referring to what I think you are, this baiting only came after yours.

Modifié par RandomGuy96, 11 janvier 2014 - 11:00 .

[David7204]

osbornep wrote...

My completely unscientific conjecture is that the reason the Quarian/Geth debates become so vicious is because of the ending. The Destroy ending is the only ending that (A) allows you to kill the most hated plot device ever (the Catalyst), and ( allows you to live, but it also wipes out the Geth. Suppose instead of killing the Geth, Destroy wipes out the Krogan; it turns out the Genophage cure is based on Reaper Tech or whatnot, etc. I'd be willing to bet that there'd be any number of threads about how the inherent barbarism of the Krogan means the galaxy is better off without them, with an equal number of threads about how only a total monster of a human being could think such a thing.

My sole bit of evidence for this hypothesis is that it seems like one's Geth/Quarian opinion correlates with one's ending choice. The more pro-destroy you are, the more likely you are to support the Quarians, whereas the more pro-Control or pro-Synthesis you are, the more likely you are to support the Geth. Perhaps it's a little bit like the phenomenon (example taken from here) whereby people who think the death penalty is wrong are likely to think that it's both not a deterrent and also results in the deaths of innocents, whereas pro-death penalty folks will be likely to think both that it's a deterrent and that few innocents are executed, even though these two things have nothing to do with each other.

I like you.

[AlanC9]

Daemul wrote...

I had Wrex alive and I still sabotaged it. I remember some ME1 stats from the old Bioware forums where it showed that Wrex that died on Virmire in 60% of playthroughs. I've been trying to find these stats for a couple of years now, but they seem to have vanished off the internet. 

I'll buy 60%.  If you do Virmire when it comes up you'll have only just heard of Wrex's quest, and by that stage of the game a lot of players are probably still chasing unlocks rather than pumping dialogue skills.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'll buy 60%.  If you do Virmire when it comes up you'll have only just heard of Wrex's quest, and by that stage of the game a lot of players are probably still chasing unlocks rather than pumping dialogue skills.

Bah, that's what squadmates are for <_<

Modifié par iakus, 11 janvier 2014 - 11:14 .

[shodiswe]

RandomGuy96 wrote...

I didn't. The post however was not like yours. It described the differences between the conflicts by saying that the sides had decent points, yet you had to rely on deduction and codex reading in one game; it didn't even take a real side on the issue. Yet you just had to come in and say "NO UH UH ONLY ONE SIDE DID THE OTHER ARE BAD GUYS AND EVERYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE JUST WANTS TO DEFEND THEIR WAIFU".

I do see it. However, throwing out bait for other unrelated people by blatantly insulting them (i.e. everyone who would side with the quarians if they had to choose one), calling them "biased" and only "pro-waifu" is not a good thing to do even if you think someone else was baiting first. Even though, if you're referring to what I think you are, this baiting only came after yours.

I dissagreed with the notion that ME1 and/or ME2 explained all these conflicts better than the whole series put together.
Hearing a kid tell you about what their people told you in school isn't better than getting both sides and a series of historical recordings.

Which is what I wanted to say. while others think the simplisity provided by ME1 and possibly ME2 is preferable to what they call a mess that was added later on.

I like it that there is more than one side to these coflicts, it makes the story less one dimentional.

After playing ME1 I had a feeling that the Geth might be a problem that would have to be dealt with. But later I learned that it wasn't as clear and cut as that. Sure Tali's schoolbook story about their view on the Geth conflict and the Geth did seem biased.

Same with the Krogans, you learn more about them, but the truth is, they did start a war called the Krogan rebellions. They also used Questionable methods like sending asteroids towards populated worlds.
New facts are added and you meet more Krogans and visit their world in ME2 and 3.
You are also showed that there is more to the Krogans than warfare and constant strife.

Both the Krogans and the Geth are given a chance to show their side of the story.
I disagree with anyone who prefers a simplified onesided story.

The complexity and reallife parallels makes these stories great.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 janvier 2014 - 11:18 .

[KrrKs]

*comes into a Krogan thread, sees Geth and Quarians *
*(spartan mode:) This is TUCHANKA, now GTFO:alien:*

Ontopic:
I think i've now done more playthroughs were i sabotaged the cure, but i'm actually convinced that curing it is "better".
At that point in the story all you know is that the reapers took centuries to wipe out the protheans in the last cycle, and you have absolutely no clue what the Crucible does, or if it even works.
The thing you do know is that you need more ground troops - as many as possible for as long as possible.
Without the cure, either the Krogans find out about the sabotage and withdraw or they do not find out and send so many fighters away that they can't sustain their population numbers. Either way you lose their support.

All the dalatras whining about "Uhh, maybe they get mad and wipe us out" is totally out of place* (*replace with word most likely forbidden by side rules), imo.
The Reapers are there, they are mad (more or less) and they will wipe the salarians and most/everybody else out
-unless you stop them somehow. And Krogan support does improve the chance to do that.

[shodiswe]

KrrKs wrote...

*comes into a Krogan thread, sees Geth and Quarians *
*(spartan mode:) This is TUCHANKA, now GTFO:alien:*

Ontopic:
I think i've now done more playthroughs were i sabotaged the cure, but i'm actually convinced that curing it is "better".
At that point in the story all you know is that the reapers took centuries to wipe out the protheans in the last cycle, and you have absolutely no clue what the Crucible does, or if it even works.
The thing you do know is that you need more ground troops - as many as possible for as long as possible.
Without the cure, either the Krogans find out about the sabotage and withdraw or they do not find out and send so many fighters away that they can't sustain their population numbers. Either way you lose their support.

All the dalatras whining about "Uhh, maybe they get mad and wipe us out" is totally out of place* (*replace with word most likely forbidden by side rules), imo.
The Reapers are there, they are mad (more or less) and they will wipe the salarians and most/everybody else out
-unless you stop them somehow. And Krogan support does improve the chance to do that.

I prefer curing it and leave it for the future to sort things out. It will be up to the Krogans to decide their fate.

Naturaly grown krogans might take 30 or 40 years to grow up. Or even longer, we know they can get a thousand years old, like the Asari, and Liara was barely considered an adult at 106 years old.
Grunt wasn't a natural born Krogan, he was speed breed with artificialy imprinted memories and education. Natural born Krogans won't come out of Tubes fully grown, educated and trained to fight. It's an unknown.
The galactic economy is said to collapse within a year, this cycle isn't as strong as the Proteans were and since the relayes wern't locked down the Reapers arn't taking one world at a time but rather they are spreading out throughout the galaxy stomping down resistance and supplylines that are a threat to their goals.

The Reapers spread throughout the galaxy and their decision to quickly annihilate all production centers they could get their hands on throughout the galaxy as quickly as possible was probably promted by the fact that they couldn't lock down the relays after the sabotage done to the controls in ME1. Just to cut the resupplying of war assets and materials to contested areas from Reaper free regions.

I don't think curing or not curing the genophage would have affected the amount of able warriors, curing it might help win the trust of the Krogan population and give them a future to fight for. Which might be worth something however.

Modifié par shodiswe, 11 janvier 2014 - 11:46 .

[Shuidizi]

Wrex always survive my playthroughs, so does Mordin. And I would NEVER betray these two, even with a renegade character. I don't really care so much about the consequences and implications, it's more like "whatever Wrex wants he gets it". This is just one of the many choices in this game that has only one true option for me.

Modifié par Shuidizi, 11 janvier 2014 - 11:58 .