307 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Because. as was pointed out, it pushes a theme of "Evil takes care of itself." Which is nonsensical and completely against the rest of the book. If evil took care of itself, Frodo should have just dumped the ring and led a comfortable life in the Shire. It was pointed out several times that such a thing wasn't an option.

One evil isn't the same as another. This is a slippery slope appeal to ridicule. 

It's a tale of how the best laid plans can go awry, and how success comes from the least likely of places.

In addition, though the story has a theme of "evil is self-destructive", if you don't do anything about evil, before it destroys itself,evil will bring about a lot of suffering. That's why the heros still have to try to stop evil.

Well, to be honest, Sauron wasn't going to be getting into anything self-destructive. If he got the ring, the only way he was going to be brought down again was if the Valar themselves intervened.

Yup and once the Valar get invovled, well say goodbye to the bulk of things in Middle Earth.

[Cainhurst Crow]

dreamgazer wrote...

(blinks)

Oh be quite stark, and go play maury povich somewhere else.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Lord of the Rings never had the destruction of the ring very heavily built up as an impossible task beforehand. Stories have different foreshadowing and derive their drama from different sources.

In case anyone else doesn't want to go surfing through this thread to figure out how this came up ...

[Dominus]

ME3 is probably the worst written story I've seen in recent RPGs. Some fans criticize ME3 DLC citadel for being out-of-mind, but from my perspectives, the whole game is insane and reeks of so many flaws and holes in its story and writings.

I enjoyed it the same way I enjoyed Metal Gear Solid - the story's borderline bonkers, but the combat and atmosphere was enough to make it enjoyable. But yeah, when I originally made my review of this game, most of the storyline discussion wasn't done seriously.

I definitely liked the game, but anything involving narrative wasn't a part of it.

[rapscallioness]

Obadiah wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Not at the climax of the story, he didn't. Not at the point it mattered most. He fell to it. And he was only saved...well...because of luck, honestly. Luck and nothing else.

Well, luck at the last minute, but victory wouldn't have been possible if Frodo hadn't gotten the ring to where it was. So, lotta effort and some luck.

....and Sam. Frodo never would have made it if not for Sam.

iirc, Sam was supposed to be based on the "valet", or "batmen" that served the Officers in WW1. Tolkein had such respect for them because they endured so much, yet were able to keep going forward.

To me that's the most moving part at the end. Frodo couldn't take anymore. He was giving up, but Sam wouldn't let him. The strength of their friendship is what got them through. Even in the face of the power of that friggin' ring.

insert lil pony meme here, but that moment, for me, outshined the destruction of the ring.

[KaiserShep]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Everything. Much of the 'mandatory' conversations are not only very important to the story, but solid moments of characterization as well. Removing them on the sole basis of 'the player might not like this character' would be a terrible idea.

Consider Lair of the Shadow Broker. Shepard is 'forced' to care about and help Liara. And yet it's overwhelmingly considering either the best or second best DLC of the series. Cutting it simply because it 'forces' Shepard to do something the player might not agree with would be a travesty.

Simple fix; make those scenes optional.

Lair of the Shadow Broker is also optional, you don't have to play it, and considering ME2 is pretty much Liara-free, it was a nice add on for a couple of hours.

And in an RPG, a simple thing would be to have events beyond the player be optional. DAO did this excellently. You have the task at hand in the ultimate game, to stop the Blight. Otherwise, what you do and how you can personalize each task, and character relationships are entirely up to the player. Hate Morrigan? Kick her out, or stab her in witch hunt? Think Alistair is annoying bastard? Make Anora Queen, keep Loghain, and let Anora execute him or kick him out of Ferelden. There's so much customization to the story in this game, and its all integrated very well. Romances are integral to the story (romancing Alistair determines what outcome you can get, or romancing Morrigan can open doors to how that story may go, etc.) I can kill Loghain or recruit him. I can kill Zevran, Wynne, and Leliana.

Versus Liara, you aren't even allowed to have a contentious relationship with you. She *has* to be your best friend, and you *have* to feel a certain way about her, etc. That's a terrible flaw for Mass Effect. I *have* to feel disgust for Cerberus (whereas in ME2 I could openly advocate for them and express regret that they didn't recruit me sooner, or in DA:O, I can openly espouse whatever philosophy I want practically. Hell, Awakening even let's you side with the Darkspawn. Darkspawn Chronicles lets me play as the Darkspawn. 

So yes, Liara is forced in a manner that you don't see for many other characters, and I find it very inappropriate to have to have so much unnecessary relevance placed on her character. 

As much as I love the ME series, I have to agree that DA:O has so much more flexibility regarding how you interact with the characters and how they turn out, right down to being able to have characters turn against you, forcing you to kill them on the spot, namely Wynne and Leliana. As far as RPG's go, it does a much better job with character treatment.

[rapscallioness]

[quote]KaiserShep wrote...

*snip*

[/quote]

And in an RPG, a simple thing would be to have events beyond the player be optional. DAO did this excellently. You have the task at hand in the ultimate game, to stop the Blight. Otherwise, what you do and how you can personalize each task, and character relationships are entirely up to the player. Hate Morrigan? Kick her out, or stab her in witch hunt? Think Alistair is annoying bastard? Make Anora Queen, keep Loghain, and let Anora execute him or kick him out of Ferelden. There's so much customization to the story in this game, and its all integrated very well. Romances are integral to the story (romancing Alistair determines what outcome you can get, or romancing Morrigan can open doors to how that story may go, etc.) I can kill Loghain or recruit him. I can kill Zevran, Wynne, and Leliana.

*snip*

[/quote]

As much as I love the ME series, I have to agree that DA:O has so much more flexibility regarding how you interact with the characters and how they turn out, right down to being able to have characters turn against you, forcing you to kill them on the spot, namely Wynne and Leliana. As far as RPG's go, it does a much better job with character treatment.

[/quote]

This. Very much.