307 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

I would too, but I don't know if it really qualifies as sidequest. It's in some third category. Merely optional quest maybe? ME1 and 2 sidequests have more relation to the N7 quests (multiplayer maps). Grissom (and Grunt's mission) might be as large as Garrus'/Menae.

What's the rule here? If a sidequest is too good it isn't a sidequest?

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 janvier 2014 - 10:55 .

[David7204]

Everything. Much of the 'mandatory' conversations are not only very important to the story, but solid moments of characterization as well. Removing them on the sole basis of 'the player might not like this character' would be a terrible idea.

Consider Lair of the Shadow Broker. Shepard is 'forced' to care about and help Liara. And yet it's overwhelmingly considered either the best or second best DLC of the series. Cutting it simply because it 'forces' Shepard to do something the player might not agree with would be a travesty.

Modifié par David7204, 12 janvier 2014 - 10:57 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

AlanC9 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Not particularly bothered by any of these. Some are them are outright positives; I'll put Grissom Academy up against any sidequest in ME1 or ME2, for instance, and I'll take the Reaper motive reveal over the irrational nonsense ME1 and ME2 saddled the series with.

I don't even know what you mean when you say forced creepy romances, actually.

Really? You enjoyed watching your Shepard do and say things he/she wouldn't say/do?

Eh whatever floats your boat.

I guess I shouldn't have used as fancy a phrase as "not particularly bothered," since that seems to have gone right by you.  I found autodialogue to be a slight annoyance, yep. All three games had slight annoyances of one type or another. I don't get my panties in a bunch over any of them.

What irrational nonsense? As far as I'm aware the Reaper's motives were not revealed in ME1 & 2 beyond the fact they wanted to eradicate all advanced organic life...

The cycles are a stupid way to do that, if that's all they want to do. ME2 made things worse by implying that the Reapers depend on sapient organics for reporduction.

Have you read what the orignal ending for ME3 was suppose to be? It does put the whole Human-Reaper thing in perspective a bit more.

I'll agree; ME1&2 are not perfect, but nothing can be worse than ME3's "to stop synthetics destroying organics we destroyed organics" 

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

Everything. Much of the 'mandatory' conversations are not only very important to the story, but solid moments of characterization as well. Removing them on the sole basis of 'the player might not like this character' would be a terrible idea.

Consider Lair of the Shadow Broker. Shepard is 'forced' to care about and help Liara. And yet it's overwhelmingly considering either the best or second best DLC of the series. Cutting it simply because it 'forces' Shepard to do something the player might not agree with would be a travesty.

Simple fix; make those scenes optional.

Lair of the Shadow Broker is also optional, you don't have to play it, and considering ME2 is pretty much Liara-free, it was a nice add on for a couple of hours.

[Cainhurst Crow]

David7204 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Seboist wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Boy, are there some really foolish comments in this thread. I suppose threads like these tend tend to bring out such people.

That's pretty hysterical coming from the same guy who has said that bone is stronger than ship armor.

He also said there was no blackhole near the Collector base.

Look at how badly you cling to these fanciful tales of what you imagine I said. How very badly you need them, and how far you're able and willing to modify your memory to accompany them. You must be in very great need of a weapon against me.

Fanciful tales? Mother ****er I was in that thread you said that. And if people were really in a great need for a weapon against you, how about how you have been sported, in both this section and dragon age inquisitions forums, spouting off about how woman need to dress in sexually provocative ways as a requirement to have characterization.

You stroke to your own ego as if it were porn.

[Cainhurst Crow]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
It can't be said? News to me. Why can't it?

-Auto dialogue 
- Retcons
- The Reapear motive 'reveal'
- Forced creepy romances
- The side quests

And that thing called the ending?

Not particularly bothered by any of these. Some are them are outright positives; I'll put Grissom Academy up against any sidequest in ME1 or ME2, for instance, and I'll take the Reaper motive reveal over the irrational nonsense ME1 and ME2 saddled the series with.

I don't even know what you mean when you say forced creepy romances, actually.

Really? You enjoyed watching your Shepard do and say things he/she wouldn't say/do?

I've had to put up with that **** since mass effect 1, why should it bother me now?

[AlanC9]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Oh I wasn't referring to those, in fact I quite liked those types of missions. It's the scanning planets then returning to the Citadel that annoyed me.

What ever happened to conversation? All you do in ME3 is invade people's privacy then go get something they want.

It's  not like the item retrieval quests replaced actual missions. They're there to reward exploration of the galaxy and mission maps, and to provide some Citadel ambient conversations.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:06 .

[David7204]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Fanciful tales? Mother ****er I was in that thread you said that. And if people were really in a great need for a weapon against you, how about how you have been sported, in both this section and dragon age inquisitions forums, spouting off about how woman need to dress in sexually provocative ways as a requirement to have characterization.

Right, see, this goes right along with the 'desperate delusions' I was just talking about. Never have I said such a thing. What I did say was that clothing has a significant effect on characterization and that it was thus appropriate for a cat thief to dress like a cat thief and a femme fatale to dress like a femme fatale. Which obviously means more feminine clothing than army fatigues.

You see the ridiculous mental gymnastics you put yourself through in order to have something to say against me? Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Modifié par David7204, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:03 .

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

What's the rule here? If a sidequest is too good it isn't a sidequest?

I don't know about rules. I'm just comparing size to the older sidequests. ME3 has quests that fit that niche already (the N7 quests). These other ones fall in another category. I think they planned on more with them too - now I'm wondering if I'm imagining it or not though. I could've sworn I saw an old diagram with Jack's students being a factor on Earth.

Well, I don't have much to contribute to a discussion like this. I think traditional CRPG structure is pretty worthless in the first place, so I don't have a strong position on how large sidequests should be.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:03 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

AlanC9 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Oh I wasn't referring to those, in fact I quite liked those types of missions. It's the scanning planets then returning to the Citadel that annoyed me.

What ever happened to conversation? All you do in ME3 is invade people's privacy then go get something they want.

It's  not like the item retrieval quests replaced actual missions. They're there to reward exploration of the galaxy and mission maps, and to provide some Citadel ambient conversations.

No, they didn't replace any missions, but whereas in ME1 you might go and talk to someone, then head to a planet and explore it, in ME3 all you do it scan. For me it just wasn't as fun and took some of the depth and immersion out of the galaxy.

[o Ventus]

CynicalShep wrote...

laughingly
ridiculous
silly
nonsense
childish
ironic
stupid
moronic
^ 
Half of your vocabulary right there.

You left out "heroism" and "incompetent".

[MassivelyEffective0730]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Everything. Much of the 'mandatory' conversations are not only very important to the story, but solid moments of characterization as well. Removing them on the sole basis of 'the player might not like this character' would be a terrible idea.

Consider Lair of the Shadow Broker. Shepard is 'forced' to care about and help Liara. And yet it's overwhelmingly considering either the best or second best DLC of the series. Cutting it simply because it 'forces' Shepard to do something the player might not agree with would be a travesty.

Simple fix; make those scenes optional.

Lair of the Shadow Broker is also optional, you don't have to play it, and considering ME2 is pretty much Liara-free, it was a nice add on for a couple of hours.

And in an RPG, a simple thing would be to have events beyond the player be optional. DAO did this excellently. You have the task at hand in the ultimate game, to stop the Blight. Otherwise, what you do and how you can personalize each task, and character relationships are entirely up to the player. Hate Morrigan? Kick her out, or stab her in witch hunt? Think Alistair is annoying bastard? Make Anora Queen, keep Loghain, and let Anora execute him or kick him out of Ferelden. There's so much customization to the story in this game, and its all integrated very well. Romances are integral to the story (romancing Alistair determines what outcome you can get, or romancing Morrigan can open doors to how that story may go, etc.) I can kill Loghain or recruit him. I can kill Zevran, Wynne, and Leliana.

Versus Liara, you aren't even allowed to have a contentious relationship with you. She *has* to be your best friend, and you *have* to feel a certain way about her, etc. That's a terrible flaw for Mass Effect. I *have* to feel disgust for Cerberus (whereas in ME2 I could openly advocate for them and express regret that they didn't recruit me sooner, or in DA:O, I can openly espouse whatever philosophy I want practically. Hell, Awakening even let's you side with the Darkspawn. Darkspawn Chronicles lets me play as the Darkspawn. 

So yes, Liara is forced in a manner that you don't see for many other characters, and I find it very inappropriate to have to have so much unnecessary relevance placed on her character. 

[themikefest]

David7204 wrote...

If you don't care for Liara, that's fine. However you have no basis whatsoever to complain on the grounds of "A character appears, I don't have control over it, and I don't like it." (Which of course is what's going on. It should be abundantly clear the whining on the BSN over Liara really has very little to nothing to do with her character.) If the mere existence of characters in stories offends you, my suggestion would be to avoid fiction.

What whining is that?

I agree that T'soni isn't being forced, its some of her dialogue in the game that has nothing to do with anything in those scenes that she is in.

After talking with Hackett about the device, the screen should've gone fade to black, instead we get a bunch of useless dialogue that has nothing to do with anything.

After the dream she mentions that the Turain councillor won't send support without the rescue of their Primarch. We already know that. Why do we need to hear it again from her?

After the second dream, she mentions the Salarian Councillor wants to talk. Why couldn't she use the intercom?

After the coup she tells us about checking out what happened to the Asari Commando's. I would leave that scene in because it just shows how useless Asari Commando's are. You know the saying 'Have you ever seen an Asari Commando unit before? Few humans have. Simple answer is they are always dying.

The time capsule is optional if you talk with her. I don't mind it. What bothers me about it is she is the one that tells the story of Shepard and used by the next cycle if you choose refuse..

Modifié par themikefest, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:16 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Everything. Much of the 'mandatory' conversations are not only very important to the story, but solid moments of characterization as well. Removing them on the sole basis of 'the player might not like this character' would be a terrible idea.

Consider Lair of the Shadow Broker. Shepard is 'forced' to care about and help Liara. And yet it's overwhelmingly considering either the best or second best DLC of the series. Cutting it simply because it 'forces' Shepard to do something the player might not agree with would be a travesty.

Simple fix; make those scenes optional.

Lair of the Shadow Broker is also optional, you don't have to play it, and considering ME2 is pretty much Liara-free, it was a nice add on for a couple of hours.

And in an RPG, a simple thing would be to have events beyond the player be optional. DAO did this excellently. You have the task at hand in the ultimate game, to stop the Blight. Otherwise, what you do and how you can personalize each task, and character relationships are entirely up to the player. Hate Morrigan? Kick her out, or stab her in witch hunt? Think Alistair is annoying bastard? Make Anora Queen, keep Loghain, and let Anora execute him or kick him out of Ferelden. There's so much customization to the story in this game, and its all integrated very well. Romances are integral to the story (romancing Alistair determines what outcome you can get, or romancing Morrigan can open doors to how that story may go, etc.) I can kill Loghain or recruit him. I can kill Zevran, Wynne, and Leliana.

Versus Liara, you aren't even allowed to have a contentious relationship with you. She *has* to be your best friend, and you *have* to feel a certain way about her, etc. That's a terrible flaw for Mass Effect. I *have* to feel disgust for Cerberus (whereas in ME2 I could openly advocate for them and express regret that they didn't recruit me sooner, or in DA:O, I can openly espouse whatever philosophy I want practically. Hell, Awakening even let's you side with the Darkspawn. Darkspawn Chronicles lets me play as the Darkspawn. 

So yes, Liara is forced in a manner that you don't see for many other characters, and I find it very inappropriate to have to have so much unnecessary relevance placed on her character. 

Yes...I'm glad to see someone on here that shares my views. Even my Renegade douche bag of the century Shepard was still best pals with Liara.

[AlanC9]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote..
It's  not like the item retrieval quests replaced actual missions. They're there to reward exploration of the galaxy and mission maps, and to provide some Citadel ambient conversations.

No, they didn't replace any missions, but whereas in ME1 you might go and talk to someone, then head to a planet and explore it, in ME3 all you do it scan. For me it just wasn't as fun and took some of the depth and immersion out of the galaxy.

I suppose those functions could have been broken up if you don't like them integrated. Many of the galaxy map things just give out WAs or cash directly, after all. There'd be less reason to ever go back to the Citadel, though.

Remember, the item retrieval missions are almost free. Two Shepard lines, three NPC lines, one placeable object, and a 2da entry for the reward. Cash all of them in and you'd maybe free up enough zots for one more N7 mission, and you'd make the Citadel a much emptier place.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:11 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
It can't be said? News to me. Why can't it?

-Auto dialogue 
- Retcons
- The Reapear motive 'reveal'
- Forced creepy romances
- The side quests

And that thing called the ending?

Not particularly bothered by any of these. Some are them are outright positives; I'll put Grissom Academy up against any sidequest in ME1 or ME2, for instance, and I'll take the Reaper motive reveal over the irrational nonsense ME1 and ME2 saddled the series with.

I don't even know what you mean when you say forced creepy romances, actually.

Really? You enjoyed watching your Shepard do and say things he/she wouldn't say/do?

I've had to put up with that **** since mass effect 1, why should it bother me now?

I'm not sure what games you've been playing then...

In Mass Effect 1 & 2 Shepard was MY character 95% of the time.

[David7204]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Simple fix; make those scenes optional.

Lair of the Shadow Broker is also optional, you don't have to play it, and considering ME2 is pretty much Liara-free, it was a nice add on for a couple of hours.

No. Terrible idea. That just means any content the player might feel strongly about must be swept to the sidelines. It means RPGs can never have a main plot where the protagonist is motivated by love, or friendship, or anger, or loyalty, or ambition, or any number of emotions just because the player might say "I don't really feel that way! Why am I being forced!"

No. That would be a tragic and senseless waste of narrative potential.

Modifié par David7204, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:12 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
It can't be said? News to me. Why can't it?

-Auto dialogue 
- Retcons
- The Reapear motive 'reveal'
- Forced creepy romances
- The side quests

And that thing called the ending?

Not particularly bothered by any of these. Some are them are outright positives; I'll put Grissom Academy up against any sidequest in ME1 or ME2, for instance, and I'll take the Reaper motive reveal over the irrational nonsense ME1 and ME2 saddled the series with.

I don't even know what you mean when you say forced creepy romances, actually.

Really? You enjoyed watching your Shepard do and say things he/she wouldn't say/do?

I've had to put up with that **** since mass effect 1, why should it bother me now?

I'm not sure what games you've been playing then...

In Mass Effect 1 & 2 Shepard was MY character 95% of the time.

"You're just a machine, and machines can be broken"

Really shepard, you going with that turd of a line? And no matter what option I pick, you say the exact same thing? Really?

If anything, shepard was a lop sided joint custody case at best. You had about a 60/40 ownership of shepard, with bioware guiding your personality choices and character choices all the way through.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:14 .

[AlanC9]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
I've had to put up with that **** since mass effect 1, why should it bother me now?

I'm not sure what games you've been playing then...

In Mass Effect 1 & 2 Shepard was MY character 95% of the time.

I'm with DB here. I had plenty of lines I couldn't stand in ME1 and ME2. Though I can usually navigate around the worst of it with appropriate P/R choices now that I know where the derp is.

Regrettably, some are not avoidable.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:13 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Simple fix; make those scenes optional.

Lair of the Shadow Broker is also optional, you don't have to play it, and considering ME2 is pretty much Liara-free, it was a nice add on for a couple of hours.

No. Terrible idea. That just means any content the player might feel strongly about must be swept to the sidelines. It means RPGs can never have a main plot where the protagonist is motivated by love, or friendship, or anger, or loyalty, or ambition, or any number of emotions just because the player might say "I don't really feel that way! Why am I being forced!"

No. That would be a tragic and senseless waste of narrative potential.

What you're describing isn't an RPG. 

The player being able to determine what their character is about and what is important to them =/= themes being 'swept aside'.

To not sweep them aside and force the player character to have to be motivated by those emotions is inhibiting to roleplaying. It's fine if you want your hero to be motivated by those. But not everyone does.

So. I think your idea is terrible.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:16 .

[themikefest]

David7204 wrote...

Consider Lair of the Shadow Broker. Shepard is 'forced' to care about and help Liara. And yet it's overwhelmingly considered either the best or second best DLC of the series. Cutting it simply because it 'forces' Shepard to do something the player might not agree with would be a travesty.

I consider it the worse dlc. The femshep I play isn't mine in that dlc. I can't ask her why she didn't tell anyone why she gave my body to Cerberus? Why does she have my armor displayed in her apartment like its some kind of trophy?

I have to "save" her instead of the other squadmate when the broker throws his desk at you. I can't ask her why Hackett gave my dogtags. And when she mentions her birthday and Shepard replies that she/he will get her something, she says"I don't need anything, I have you" I wanted so bad to throw her out the airlock

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Simple fix; make those scenes optional.

Lair of the Shadow Broker is also optional, you don't have to play it, and considering ME2 is pretty much Liara-free, it was a nice add on for a couple of hours.

No. Terrible idea. That just means any content the player might feel strongly about must be swept to the sidelines. It means RPGs can never have a main plot where the protagonist is motivated by love, or friendship, or anger, or loyalty, or ambition, or any number of emotions just because the player might say "I don't really feel that way! Why am I being forced!"

No. That would be a tragic and senseless waste of narrative potential.

No, no, you're wrong, just wrong.

So what if I want Shepard romace-less? Is this a Sci Fi epic RPG about stopping the annihilation of life or a romance simulator?

I'm just going to refer to MassivelyEffective's post about the choice we had in DA:O.