307 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

You know a diplomatic and more politically minded shepard wouldn't opt for saying "no comment" to the council or "I have nothing further." when it's clear the case against saren is going badly and they have no more evidence.

No, the truly best course of action a shepard of intellect and strategy would say is to call the council corrupt bigots and say that he won't waste his breath on them any longer.

Cause that's sure to have absolutely no ramifications in the future.

[David7204]

Of course it is. Really, there's no dividing line between that and what Shepard does. Why does Shepard go after Saren?

The player might not be angry at Saren. The player might not care what the Council and Alliance want.

It doesn't matter. Shepard goes after him anyway.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Simple fix; make those scenes optional.

Lair of the Shadow Broker is also optional, you don't have to play it, and considering ME2 is pretty much Liara-free, it was a nice add on for a couple of hours.

No. Terrible idea. That just means any content the player might feel strongly about must be swept to the sidelines. It means RPGs can never have a main plot where the protagonist is motivated by love, or friendship, or anger, or loyalty, or ambition, or any number of emotions just because the player might say "I don't really feel that way! Why am I being forced!"

No. That would be a tragic and senseless waste of narrative potential.

What you're describing isn't an RPG. 

The player being able to determine what their character is about and what is important to them =/= themes being 'swept aside'.

Exactly, an RPG would give us the choice whether we wanted to spend time with character A or not.

[AlanC9]

It's about time we had another "what is an RPG thread," I guess.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:18 .

[David7204]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

No, no, you're wrong, just wrong.

So what if I want Shepard romace-less? Is this a Sci Fi epic RPG about stopping the annihilation of life or a romance simulator?

I'm just going to refer to MassivelyEffective's post about the choice we had in DA:O.

If it provided an opportunity to tell a good story and explore meaningful themes I haven't seen before, I would absolutely welcome an RPG with a supposed 'forced' romance.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

Of course it is. Really, there's no dividing line between that and what Shepard does. Why does Shepard go after Saren?

The player might not be angry at Saren. The player might not care what the Council and Alliance want.

It doesn't matter. Shepard goes after him anyway.

That's completely different, that is THE STORY of Mass Effect 1, and Shepard is the protagonist. Liara is a side character who's length of interaction with the player was fairly optional up until ME3.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Of course it is. Really, there's no dividing line between that and what Shepard does. Why does Shepard go after Saren?

The player might not be angry at Saren. The player might not care what the Council and Alliance want.

It doesn't matter. Shepard goes after him anyway.

Yes. And the player gets to verbalize why Shepard is going after Saren. 

You want Shepard to be his own character, with his own predefined identity and traits based on what you want them to be.

I want Shepard to be something of my own creation with the tools that BW has given me, as a creation that holds the traits, opinions, values, and identity I deem important, necessary, relevant, and desirable. 

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

No, no, you're wrong, just wrong.

So what if I want Shepard romace-less? Is this a Sci Fi epic RPG about stopping the annihilation of life or a romance simulator?

I'm just going to refer to MassivelyEffective's post about the choice we had in DA:O.

If it provided an opportunity to tell a good story and explore meaningful themes I haven't seen before, I would absolutely welcome an RPG with a supposed 'forced' romance.

You cannot be serious, they weren't "meaningful", they were just scenes forced upon the player.

This is an RPG (whcih you seem to be forgetting), why can't we hate Liara if we want and ignore her?

[David7204]

You never had a choice. You never will. You did exactly what BioWare told you to do in previous games. You'll do exactly what BioWare tells you to do in future games. Same with any other developer. 'Choices' don't allow you to escape from characters and plot, no matter how much you dislike or disagree with them.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

AlanC9 wrote...

It's about time we had another "what is an RPG thread," I guess.

I like the sound of that.

[von uber]

I felt annoyed in ME2 for having to be friends with Miranda and jacob. So YMMV.
if anything i fely let down by T'soni in ME3 because it was like your relaitonship over ME1/2 never happened (if you romanced her).

The other thing you have to consider is who would you have in the scenes like Mars, the Council etc. Whoever turns up people will say it was forced. T'soni is the only one really guaranteed to be alive by ME3. It therefore makes sense from a game point of view to be her.

[David7204]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If it provided an opportunity to tell a good story and explore meaningful themes I haven't seen before, I would absolutely welcome an RPG with a supposed 'forced' romance.

You cannot be serious, they weren't "meaningful", they were just scenes forced upon the player.

This is an RPG (whcih you seem to be forgetting), why can't we hate Liara if we want and ignore her?

That is utterly laughable. Is every romance in every book, film, and TV show I've ever seen 'meaningless' because I had no choice? Because it was 'forced' upon me? Because I wasn't able to magically enter the television and tell characters what I wanted them to do?

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

It's about time we had another "what is an RPG thread," I guess.

Oh, please no.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

No. Terrible idea. That just means any content the player might feel strongly about must be swept to the sidelines. It means RPGs can never have a main plot where the protagonist is motivated by love, or friendship, or anger, or loyalty, or ambition, or any number of emotions just because the player might say "I don't really feel that way! Why am I being forced!"

No. That would be a tragic and senseless waste of narrative potential.

A literal ton of content like what your describing is already "swept to the sidelines", either by being paid DLC, being based on a choice made in a previous game, or by being an actual choice itself.

I'll ignore the fact that you never seem to remember that here are numerous 'types' of RPGs. A Bethesda RPG will likely never have anything like what you're describing, while nearly all of Bioware's RPGs made in the past decade DO have it. Another game, like Nier for example, might put "love ,friendship, anger, or loyalty" at the forefront of the plot. The player must make concessions to each game they play. Hell, ME3 itself already put this at the forefront with the Citadel DLC. The message being hammered in there is that Shepard is only able to do the things they do ecause of their friends and companions.

Modifié par o Ventus, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:24 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

AlanC9 wrote...

It's about time we had another "what is an RPG thread," I guess.

An rpg, or hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher, is a shoulder fired device created by the russian military after witnessing the effectiveness of the german panzerfaust during WWII. Often mistakenly refereed to as a rocket propelled grenade, it is an effective weapon against vehicular armor and targets, and has been used around the world due to it's ease of use , effectiveness in battle, and low maintenance cost.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:24 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

You never had a choice. You never will. You did exactly what BioWare told you to do in previous games. You'll do exactly what BioWare tells you to do in future games. Same with any other developer. 'Choices' don't allow you to escape from characters and plot, no matter how much you dislike or disagree with them.

I don't even know where to began on what you just said...

Mass Effect has always been proclaimed to be about "choice", now we're not talking about massive choice on the plot scale (minus some crucial moments) but the smaller choices such as romance and friends is what makes every player's game UNIQUE.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

An rpg, or rhand-held anti-tank grenade launcher, is a shoulder fired device created by the russian military after witnessing the effectiveness of the german panzerfaust during WWII. Often mistakenly refereed to as a rocket propelled grenade, it is an effective weapon against vehicular armor and targets, and has been used around the world due to it's ease of use , effectiveness in battle, and low maintenance cost.

[David7204]

o Ventus wrote...

I'll ignore the fact that you never seem to remember that here are numerous 'types' of RPGs. A Bethesda RPG will likely never have anything like what you're describing, while nearly all of Bioware's RPGs made in the past decade DO have it. Another game, like Nier for example, might put "love ,friendship, anger, or loyalty" at the forefront of the plot. The player must make concessions to each game they play.

Of course they do. In Oblivion you save Martin and close the gates, regardless of how you feel about it. In Fallout 3 you search for your father regardless of how you feel about it. In Skyrim you fight dragons regardless of how you feel about it.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If it provided an opportunity to tell a good story and explore meaningful themes I haven't seen before, I would absolutely welcome an RPG with a supposed 'forced' romance.

You cannot be serious, they weren't "meaningful", they were just scenes forced upon the player.

This is an RPG (whcih you seem to be forgetting), why can't we hate Liara if we want and ignore her?

That is utterly laughable. Is every romance in every book, film, and TV show I've ever seen 'meaningless' because I had no choice? Because it was 'forced' upon me? Because I wasn't able to magically enter the television and tell characters what I wanted them to do?

Are you even aware of what you're doing? You're comparing a game where you make choices to affect the plot to a film/TV show which is filmed several months before it is aird...

Yeah fair comparison...

Have you actually played any RPGs other than Mass Effect 3?

[themikefest]

von uber wrote...

I felt annoyed in ME2 for having to be friends with Miranda and jacob. So YMMV.
if anything i fely let down by T'soni in ME3 because it was like your relaitonship over ME1/2 never happened (if you romanced her).

The other thing you have to consider is who would you have in the scenes like Mars, the Council etc. Whoever turns up people will say it was forced. T'soni is the only one really guaranteed to be alive by ME3. It therefore makes sense from a game point of view to be her.

Simple. I would kill T'soni in the shadow busted dlc, convince Vasir to help with defeating the Shadow Broker and then  make Vasir the broker who eventually discovers the plans on Mars and meets the council with Shepard.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I'll ignore the fact that you never seem to remember that here are numerous 'types' of RPGs. A Bethesda RPG will likely never have anything like what you're describing, while nearly all of Bioware's RPGs made in the past decade DO have it. Another game, like Nier for example, might put "love ,friendship, anger, or loyalty" at the forefront of the plot. The player must make concessions to each game they play.

Of course they do. In Oblivion you save Martin and close the gates, regardless of how you feel about it. In Fallout 3 you search for your father regardless of how you feel about it. In Skyrim you fight dragons regardless of how you feel about it.

You don't HAVE to. I'd completed all the guilds and was about level 30 in Skyrim before I even went to see the Greybeards...

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If it provided an opportunity to tell a good story and explore meaningful themes I haven't seen before, I would absolutely welcome an RPG with a supposed 'forced' romance.

You cannot be serious, they weren't "meaningful", they were just scenes forced upon the player.

This is an RPG (whcih you seem to be forgetting), why can't we hate Liara if we want and ignore her?

That is utterly laughable. Is every romance in every book, film, and TV show I've ever seen 'meaningless' because I had no choice? Because it was 'forced' upon me? Because I wasn't able to magically enter the television and tell characters what I wanted them to do?

This isn't a book.

This isn't a film.

This isn't a TV Show.

This is a video game.

More importantly, it's a Role-Playing Game (at least notionally).

It has an element that none of the other mediums you mentioned have: the element of audience participation. And for RPG's, that audience participation increases to a level where the audience (the player) is able to shape and define not only their character, but the relationships with other characters, the outcome of events (which are mandatory yes, so that there is some semblance of a story), the order or sequence in which said events occur and the consequences arising from such, the general path of the story towards (hopefully) multiple and diverse conclusions. You get to shape the world with the character, whom you also get to shape.

[David7204]

You are not in control of the story. You never will be. BioWare is, always has been, and always will be. However many times you'd like to repeat 'Choices' does not change that. There's one plot. Period. You make choices, but the plot is still there whether you like it or not. There are characters. Period. You can avoid some, but interaction with others will always be mandatory whether you like it or not.