307 réponses à ce sujet

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

themikefest wrote...

von uber wrote...

I felt annoyed in ME2 for having to be friends with Miranda and jacob. So YMMV.
if anything i fely let down by T'soni in ME3 because it was like your relaitonship over ME1/2 never happened (if you romanced her).

The other thing you have to consider is who would you have in the scenes like Mars, the Council etc. Whoever turns up people will say it was forced. T'soni is the only one really guaranteed to be alive by ME3. It therefore makes sense from a game point of view to be her.

Simple. I would kill T'soni in the shadow busted dlc, convince Vasir to help with defeating the Shadow Broker and then  make Vasir the broker who eventually discovers the plans on Mars and meets the council with Shepard.

You don't even have to be friends with Miranda or Jacob...

I know Miranda hated me in one playthrough for siding with Jack.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

You are not in control of the story. You never will be. BioWare is, always has been, and always will be. However many times you'd like to repeat 'Choices' does not change that. There's one plot. Period. You make choices, but the plot is still there whether you like it or not. There are characters. Period. You can avoid some, but interaction with others will always be mandatory whether you like it or not.

Oh, so if we go by this; you're saying Mass Effect is not an RPG?

[David7204]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

You don't HAVE to. I'd completed all the guilds and was about level 30 in Skyrim before I even went to see the Greybeards...

You don't have to do anything in Mass Effect either. You're free to ride the elevator on the Normandy up and down for all eternity if you wish. The plot is the plot, and it's still there.

[David7204]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You are not in control of the story. You never will be. BioWare is, always has been, and always will be. However many times you'd like to repeat 'Choices' does not change that. There's one plot. Period. You make choices, but the plot is still there whether you like it or not. There are characters. Period. You can avoid some, but interaction with others will always be mandatory whether you like it or not.

Oh, so if we go by this; you're saying Mass Effect is not an RPG?

By your definition, nothing is, has been, or ever will be an RPG.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

You don't HAVE to. I'd completed all the guilds and was about level 30 in Skyrim before I even went to see the Greybeards...

You don't have to do anything in Mass Effect either. You're free to ride the elevator on the Normandy up and down for all eternity if you wish. The plot is the plot, and it's still there.

Just because there is a plot does not mean we have no control over it. Virmire is part of the plot, and who decides who gets left behind?

Oh right, you.

[David7204]

Who decides if you go to Virmire or not in the first place?

Oh right. Not you. BioWare.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You are not in control of the story. You never will be. BioWare is, always has been, and always will be. However many times you'd like to repeat 'Choices' does not change that. There's one plot. Period. You make choices, but the plot is still there whether you like it or not. There are characters. Period. You can avoid some, but interaction with others will always be mandatory whether you like it or not.

Oh, so if we go by this; you're saying Mass Effect is not an RPG?

By your definition, nothing is, has been, or ever will be an RPG.

Morrowind
Oblivion
Skyrim
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
The Witcher
The Witcher 2: Assasin of Kings
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Repbulic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords
Alpha Protocol
Dragon Age: Origins
Deus Ex
Deus Ex: Invisible War

I could carry on..

[themikefest]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

themikefest wrote...

von uber wrote...

I felt annoyed in ME2 for having to be friends with Miranda and jacob. So YMMV.
if anything i fely let down by T'soni in ME3 because it was like your relaitonship over ME1/2 never happened (if you romanced her).

The other thing you have to consider is who would you have in the scenes like Mars, the Council etc. Whoever turns up people will say it was forced. T'soni is the only one really guaranteed to be alive by ME3. It therefore makes sense from a game point of view to be her.

Simple. I would kill T'soni in the shadow busted dlc, convince Vasir to help with defeating the Shadow Broker and then  make Vasir the broker who eventually discovers the plans on Mars and meets the council with Shepard.

You don't even have to be friends with Miranda or Jacob...

I know Miranda hated me in one playthrough for siding with Jack.

Why would I not want to be friends with Miranda? Or are you responding the other post?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You are not in control of the story. You never will be. BioWare is, always has been, and always will be. However many times you'd like to repeat 'Choices' does not change that. There's one plot. Period. You make choices, but the plot is still there whether you like it or not. There are characters. Period. You can avoid some, but interaction with others will always be mandatory whether you like it or not.

Yes, you are in control of the story. Not in a meta-physical manner, but with what BW gives you in relation to what RPG's are meant to do, you do control the story. 

Yes there is one plot. You get to determine how that plot plays out. And when I don't, I feel rather shorted, especially since the game was an RPG advertising that I'd be able to determine how the story plays out the way I want it to. I may not have control of what the plot is, but I (notionally) have control of its direction. Especially in DA:O. You should finish it, or try it.

There are characters there yes. But the point is that I am able to define my character's relationship to those characters. I shouldn't have to be friends with Liara. How does being close to Liara make the plot advance? What does being contentious, to a point where I can even dismiss or kill her, detract from the Reaper invasion plot? I'm not upset that the interaction is there. I'm upset in that I can't define that interaction, especially across the entire trilogy.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

Who decides if you go to Virmire or not in the first place?

Oh right. Not you. BioWare.

Yes, because everything has to follow a narrative. The tiny details (such as character interaction) however are up to us.

Seriously, how did you get from raging at me because I said Liara was forced on the player to ranting about some conspiracy about us having no control over anything in Mass Effect?

[David7204]

You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker. BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in the first place. BioWare did.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker. BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in the first place. BioWare did.

Yes because those are the fundemental basics to the story.

Are you even paying attention?

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Seboist wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Boy, are there some really foolish comments in this thread. I suppose threads like these tend tend to bring out such people.

That's pretty hysterical coming from the same guy who has said that bone is stronger than ship armor.

He also said there was no blackhole near the Collector base.

Look at how badly you cling to these fanciful tales of what you imagine I said. How very badly you need them, and how far you're able and willing to modify your memory to accompany them. You must be in very great need of a weapon against me.

I don't need to modify anything, everyone that was in that thread saw that you said that, people have good memories and remember stupid crap, more so when you spew it.

[Nightwriter]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

1. The incompetance of defense council who apparently had 'trused' Shepard and his story yet have not thought of any plans against the reaper invasion.
-It's cliche of typical high-ranking invididuals being inept to build a stage for the protagonist

5. Liara tells Shepard that there is a superweapon that can wipe out the space gods which was designed by species that belonged to one of 20,000 cycles of reaper abduction, and Shepard for some obscure reason I can never understand believes that the device is legit. That's utterly ridiculus. The story is about equally convincing as the legend of super saiyan in dragonball.

These two are probably due to poor planning on BioWare's part, since they involve the whole lack of preparedness thing. For some reason BioWare did not seem super interested in creating a Reaper killing plan ahead of time so we spent ME2 sort of goofing off instead. Then ME3 arrived and the writers were forced to invent a convenient superweapon discovered at the perfect time.

Also wtf: 

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Secondly, how does building crusible have anything to do with saving earth?

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

themikefest wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

themikefest wrote...

von uber wrote...

I felt annoyed in ME2 for having to be friends with Miranda and jacob. So YMMV.
if anything i fely let down by T'soni in ME3 because it was like your relaitonship over ME1/2 never happened (if you romanced her).

The other thing you have to consider is who would you have in the scenes like Mars, the Council etc. Whoever turns up people will say it was forced. T'soni is the only one really guaranteed to be alive by ME3. It therefore makes sense from a game point of view to be her.

Simple. I would kill T'soni in the shadow busted dlc, convince Vasir to help with defeating the Shadow Broker and then  make Vasir the broker who eventually discovers the plans on Mars and meets the council with Shepard.

You don't even have to be friends with Miranda or Jacob...

I know Miranda hated me in one playthrough for siding with Jack.

Why would I not want to be friends with Miranda? Or are you responding the other post?

Responding to the other post, I was too lazy to go back and find that post to quote it

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Who decides if you go to Virmire or not in the first place?

Oh right. Not you. BioWare.

That's not the argument. No one is arguing that there is a plot that is going somewhere. 

What we're arguing is that we get to control how that plot turns out.

And you're arguing against that. You aren't providing reasons why the game shouldn't be able to do things. 

In all honesty David, besides Mass Effect, how many RPG's (or ****, non-linear games) have you actually played?

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

Of course they do. In Oblivion you save Martin and close the gates, regardless of how you feel about it. In Fallout 3 you search for your father regardless of how you feel about it. In Skyrim you fight dragons regardless of how you feel about it.

Selective reading at its finest. Notice the bit about concessions near the bottom.

What your describing is borderline meaningless, because your examples are core parts of the narrative. Compare Skyrim to ME. Both games are about stopping a pseudo prophetic apocalypse-type of event (Alduin and the Reapers, respectively). Something like a romance between the protagonist and somebody else will not have any relation to the rest of the plot. Or compare it to Fallout 3. Finding your father is the core motivation for the protagonist. The Vault Dweller  falling in love with Amalia and settling down in Megaton has nothing at all to do with anything. If that were mandatory during he main campaign, it would be nothing but wasted writing. Nier, like I mentioned earlier, is all about the length hat the title character goes through for his daughters. Nier, unlike ME, is also not a game steeped in choice. It's mostly linear. How the player feels is largely irrelevant because the story is being told in a specific form.

[David7204]

Ah, good. I was waiting for that. So we can agree that it's okay to 'force' the player into feeling a certain way about a certain thing or certain character if it's a 'fundamental basic' to the story, then?

[Mr.House]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You are not in control of the story. You never will be. BioWare is, always has been, and always will be. However many times you'd like to repeat 'Choices' does not change that. There's one plot. Period. You make choices, but the plot is still there whether you like it or not. There are characters. Period. You can avoid some, but interaction with others will always be mandatory whether you like it or not.

Oh, so if we go by this; you're saying Mass Effect is not an RPG?

By your definition, nothing is, has been, or ever will be an RPG.

Morrowind
Oblivion
Skyrim
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
The Witcher
The Witcher 2: Assasin of Kings
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Repbulic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords
Alpha Protocol
Dragon Age: Origins
Deus Ex
Deus Ex: Invisible War

I could carry on..

Not really because half the games you listed do follow what David did say.

[David7204]

Nightwriter wrote...

These two are probably due to poor planning on BioWare's part, since they involve the whole lack of preparedness thing. For some reason BioWare did not seem super interested in creating a Reaper killing plan ahead of time.

Maybe because a 'Reaper killing plan' introduce in ME 2 would be incredibly mediocre writing? Maybe because revealing the solution to how the Reapers are beaten before they even appear cripples the depth and drama of the story? 

Modifié par David7204, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:42 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You are not in control of the story. You never will be. BioWare is, always has been, and always will be. However many times you'd like to repeat 'Choices' does not change that. There's one plot. Period. You make choices, but the plot is still there whether you like it or not. There are characters. Period. You can avoid some, but interaction with others will always be mandatory whether you like it or not.

Oh, so if we go by this; you're saying Mass Effect is not an RPG?

By your definition, nothing is, has been, or ever will be an RPG.

Morrowind
Oblivion
Skyrim
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
The Witcher
The Witcher 2: Assasin of Kings
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Repbulic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords
Alpha Protocol
Dragon Age: Origins
Deus Ex
Deus Ex: Invisible War

I could carry on..

Not really because half the games you listed do follow what David did say.

David is claiming that we have no control over anything in a RPG, I've listed a few games that prove his statement wrong.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

Ah, good. I was waiting for that. So we can agree that it's okay to 'force' the player into feeling a certain way about a certain thing or certain character if it's a 'fundamental basic' to the story, then?

Where are you getting this from? I've never played a game that's done that, and I've played a lot of games.

[Mr.House]

StreetMagic wrote...

Plotting (Saren, Virmire, etc) is what binds all the events together. But it doesn't dictate the details or sequence or relationships involved. That's what Bioware tries to give to the player. To say they don't care about anyone's choice at all is unfounded. They put a gargantuan amount of work into saying they do care.

No matter what in ME, you stop Sovie, no matter what in ME2 you stop the Colloctors, it's funny enough only possible in ME3 to fail in the story.