307 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker. BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in the first place. BioWare did.

BioWare chose to go after Saren. And they gave me the ability to define Shepard's motivation for doing so.

They chose to include Liara and Tali in the game. But for Tali, they acknowledged how one might not want her in the game and did it in a reasonable manner in the game. That said, the game also allows me to define my relationship with Tali for the first two games. I don't get that with Liara? Why can't I be mean to Liara? What is bad about being able to be antagonistic to Liara?

They did choose to save Joker. I get to define my relationship with him too. 

And until ME3, I was able to define my feelings on the alliance.

Until ME3, I was able to define my Shepard the way I wanted too. And you're essentially saying that's a bad thing.

[Mr.House]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You are not in control of the story. You never will be. BioWare is, always has been, and always will be. However many times you'd like to repeat 'Choices' does not change that. There's one plot. Period. You make choices, but the plot is still there whether you like it or not. There are characters. Period. You can avoid some, but interaction with others will always be mandatory whether you like it or not.

Oh, so if we go by this; you're saying Mass Effect is not an RPG?

By your definition, nothing is, has been, or ever will be an RPG.

Morrowind
Oblivion
Skyrim
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
The Witcher
The Witcher 2: Assasin of Kings
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Repbulic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords
Alpha Protocol
Dragon Age: Origins
Deus Ex
Deus Ex: Invisible War

I could carry on..

Not really because half the games you listed do follow what David did say.

David is claiming that we have no control over anything in a RPG, I've listed a few games that prove his statement wrong.

So why did you list Oblivion, Skyrim and Bioware games?

[dreamgazer]

I'm not in the mood to get in the middle of all ... this.  I'll just toss out two things.

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

But yes, all three games have major holes and flaws, but where you can overlook them in ME1 & 2 and enjoy what is overall a great gaming experience; the same cannot be said for ME3.

Sure, it can.

And, RPG thread? Here, knock yourself out: http://social.biowar.../index/17757750

[Mr.House]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker. BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in the first place. BioWare did.

BioWare chose to go after Saren. And they gave me the ability to define Shepard's motivation for doing so.

They chose to include Liara and Tali in the game. But for Tali, they acknowledged how one might not want her in the game and did it in a reasonable manner in the game. That said, the game also allows me to define my relationship with Tali for the first two games. I don't get that with Liara? Why can't I be mean to Liara? What is bad about being able to be antagonistic to Liara?

They did choose to save Joker. I get to define my relationship with him too. 

False, no matter what you are forced to be buddy buddy with Joker after you see him again in ME2, after he just got you killed.

[David7204]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ah, good. I was waiting for that. So we can agree that it's okay to 'force' the player into feeling a certain way about a certain thing or certain character if it's a 'fundamental basic' to the story, then?

Where are you getting this from? I've never played a game that's done that, and I've played a lot of games.

Oh my God...

I posted  "You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker. BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in the first place. BioWare did."

In reponse, you literally just said, and I quote "Yes because those are the fundemental basics to the story."

Does not mean that being 'forced' into those things is acceptable because they're fundamental basics of the story?

Modifié par David7204, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:46 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Mr.House wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Plotting (Saren, Virmire, etc) is what binds all the events together. But it doesn't dictate the details or sequence or relationships involved. That's what Bioware tries to give to the player. To say they don't care about anyone's choice at all is unfounded. They put a gargantuan amount of work into saying they do care.

No matter what in ME, you stop Sovie, no matter what in ME2 you stop the Colloctors, it's funny enough only possible in ME3 to fail in the story.

Yeah, and what a great job they did on that...

[Mr.House]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Plotting (Saren, Virmire, etc) is what binds all the events together. But it doesn't dictate the details or sequence or relationships involved. That's what Bioware tries to give to the player. To say they don't care about anyone's choice at all is unfounded. They put a gargantuan amount of work into saying they do care.

No matter what in ME, you stop Sovie, no matter what in ME2 you stop the Colloctors, it's funny enough only possible in ME3 to fail in the story.

Yeah, and what a great job they did on that...

The irony is this, people complain they did not have choices in ME3 depsite the facting that the main story ends vaslty diffrent then the past two games allowed you, whatever it was well done or not means nothing(I don't think it was well done mind you)

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Ah, good. I was waiting for that. So we can agree that it's okay to 'force' the player into feeling a certain way about a certain thing or certain character if it's a 'fundamental basic' to the story, then?

Where are you getting this from? I've never played a game that's done that, and I've played a lot of games.

Oh my God...

I posted  "You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to
recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker.
BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in
the first place. BioWare did.
"

In reponse, you literally just said "Yes because those are the fundemental basics to the story."

Does not mean that being 'forced' into those things is acceptable because they're fundamental basics of the story?

No. You meet Tali because she has the proof you need to prove Saren is a traitor, and while she is then forced upon the player a bit by Udina and Anderson telling you to take her with you, you never have to talk to her again or have her in your squad.

The same goes for Liara, she's Benzia's daughter who is Saren's right hand women. Their characters are tied to the plot, but beyond their relation to the plot you can pretty much ignore them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker. BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in the first place. BioWare did.

BioWare chose to go after Saren. And they gave me the ability to define Shepard's motivation for doing so.

They chose to include Liara and Tali in the game. But for Tali, they acknowledged how one might not want her in the game and did it in a reasonable manner in the game. That said, the game also allows me to define my relationship with Tali for the first two games. I don't get that with Liara? Why can't I be mean to Liara? What is bad about being able to be antagonistic to Liara?

They did choose to save Joker. I get to define my relationship with him too. 

False, no matter what you are forced to be buddy buddy with Joker after you see him again in ME2, after he just got you killed.

Not necessarily. You could be a hardass on him if you wanted too, and in ME3, you really could be more of an ass later, to a point where Shepard and Joker are basically on non-speaking terms. But yeah, I see what you mean. And it's a limitation. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

How do you fail ME3 anyways? Maybe I'm crazy, but I think even low EMS destroy isn't failing. You got rid of the Reaper threat at least.

Refuse.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Plotting (Saren, Virmire, etc) is what binds all the events together. But it doesn't dictate the details or sequence or relationships involved. That's what Bioware tries to give to the player. To say they don't care about anyone's choice at all is unfounded. They put a gargantuan amount of work into saying they do care.

No matter what in ME, you stop Sovie, no matter what in ME2 you stop the Colloctors, it's funny enough only possible in ME3 to fail in the story.

Yeah, and what a great job they did on that...

The irony is this, people complain they did not have choices in ME3 depsite the facting that the main story ends vaslty diffrent then the past two games allowed you, whatever it was well done or not means nothing(I don't think it was well done mind you)

Mass Effect is a trilogy, so of course they're going to have fixed endings to a degree, the small variables however are up to you.

[David7204]

This is clearly not a very productive use of my time. And it's not a very interesting argument.

[Mr.House]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker. BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in the first place. BioWare did.

BioWare chose to go after Saren. And they gave me the ability to define Shepard's motivation for doing so.

They chose to include Liara and Tali in the game. But for Tali, they acknowledged how one might not want her in the game and did it in a reasonable manner in the game. That said, the game also allows me to define my relationship with Tali for the first two games. I don't get that with Liara? Why can't I be mean to Liara? What is bad about being able to be antagonistic to Liara?

They did choose to save Joker. I get to define my relationship with him too. 

False, no matter what you are forced to be buddy buddy with Joker after you see him again in ME2, after he just got you killed.

Not necessarily. You could be a hardass on him if you wanted too, and in ME3, you really could be more of an ass later, to a point where Shepard and Joker are basically on non-speaking terms. But yeah, I see what you mean. And it's a limitation. 

You're talking about on the ship, I'm talking about soon as you meet him after Freedoms progress. That scene is where the ME series started to fall because it was the first time and not the last that you where forced into something outside yhe story that your character would not agree with. People like to say it started in ME3 with the forced friendship with Liara that dotted ME3(something that I don't like mind you and I am a Liara fan as these should have been for only a person who romanced her) , but that's simply false. It started in ME2 with Joker after Freedoms progress.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

David7204 wrote...

This is clearly not a very productive use of my time. And it's not a very interesting argument.

Then leave if you feel that way, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[themikefest]

David7204 wrote...

This is clearly not a very productive use of my time. And it's not a very interesting argument.

Then leave. Nobody is stopping you.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Mr.House wrote...

The irony is this, people complain they did not have choices in ME3 depsite the facting that the main story ends vaslty diffrent then the past two games allowed you, whatever it was well done or not means nothing(I don't think it was well done mind you)

I think most people are willing to look past ME1 and ME2 on this front since shaking things up too wildly would make the development of ME3 too difficult (granted the did that anyway, looking at you ME2). Since ME3 didn't have to be worried about such constraints I think people were expecting something super crazy, instead they got a watered down DE:HR ending.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:53 .

[Nightwriter]

David7204 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

These two are probably due to poor planning on BioWare's part, since they involve the whole lack of preparedness thing. For some reason BioWare did not seem super interested in creating a Reaper killing plan ahead of time.

Maybe because a 'Reaper killing plan' introduce in ME 2 would be incredibly mediocre writing? Maybe because revealing the solution to how the Reapers are beaten before they even appear cripples the depth and drama of the story? 

I like chocolate pudding also. Why yes they're fine thanks for asking. Mm-hmm, I agree, the movie Frequency was underrated.

[ImaginaryMatter]

David7204 wrote...

This is clearly not a very productive use of my time. And it's not a very interesting argument.

Yes, yes it is. Leave now and never come back.

[Mr.House]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Plotting (Saren, Virmire, etc) is what binds all the events together. But it doesn't dictate the details or sequence or relationships involved. That's what Bioware tries to give to the player. To say they don't care about anyone's choice at all is unfounded. They put a gargantuan amount of work into saying they do care.

No matter what in ME, you stop Sovie, no matter what in ME2 you stop the Colloctors, it's funny enough only possible in ME3 to fail in the story.

Yeah, and what a great job they did on that...

The irony is this, people complain they did not have choices in ME3 depsite the facting that the main story ends vaslty diffrent then the past two games allowed you, whatever it was well done or not means nothing(I don't think it was well done mind you)

Mass Effect is a trilogy, so of course they're going to have fixed endings to a degree, the small variables however are up to you.

ME is only a trilogy because Bioware wanted to cash in on the trilogy wagon, but it's hardly a trilogy. Each game is stand alone, with fluff.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Plotting (Saren, Virmire, etc) is what binds all the events together. But it doesn't dictate the details or sequence or relationships involved. That's what Bioware tries to give to the player. To say they don't care about anyone's choice at all is unfounded. They put a gargantuan amount of work into saying they do care.

No matter what in ME, you stop Sovie, no matter what in ME2 you stop the Colloctors, it's funny enough only possible in ME3 to fail in the story.

Yeah, and what a great job they did on that...

The irony is this, people complain they did not have choices in ME3 depsite the facting that the main story ends vaslty diffrent then the past two games allowed you, whatever it was well done or not means nothing(I don't think it was well done mind you)

Mass Effect is a trilogy, so of course they're going to have fixed endings to a degree, the small variables however are up to you.

ME is only a trilogy because Bioware wanted to cash in on the trilogy wagon, but it's hardly a trilogy. Each game is stand alone, with fluff.

Mass Effect 1, maybe. I would not say so for ME2.

[Mr.House]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Plotting (Saren, Virmire, etc) is what binds all the events together. But it doesn't dictate the details or sequence or relationships involved. That's what Bioware tries to give to the player. To say they don't care about anyone's choice at all is unfounded. They put a gargantuan amount of work into saying they do care.

No matter what in ME, you stop Sovie, no matter what in ME2 you stop the Colloctors, it's funny enough only possible in ME3 to fail in the story.

Yeah, and what a great job they did on that...

The irony is this, people complain they did not have choices in ME3 depsite the facting that the main story ends vaslty diffrent then the past two games allowed you, whatever it was well done or not means nothing(I don't think it was well done mind you)

Mass Effect is a trilogy, so of course they're going to have fixed endings to a degree, the small variables however are up to you.

ME is only a trilogy because Bioware wanted to cash in on the trilogy wagon, but it's hardly a trilogy. Each game is stand alone, with fluff.

Mass Effect 1, maybe. I would not say so for ME2.

Hahahaha no. ME2 is very much a stand alone game, hell it's pretty much a reboot as it changed alot of lore and put all the old characters from ME to the side of the road for a whole new cast. That's very much a stand alone game, with added fluff via the horrible import system.

Modifié par Mr.House, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:57 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You did not choose to go after Saren. BioWare did. You did not choose to recruit Liara and Tali. BioWare did. You did not choose to save Joker. BioWare did. You did not choose to become a member of the Alliance in the first place. BioWare did.

BioWare chose to go after Saren. And they gave me the ability to define Shepard's motivation for doing so.

They chose to include Liara and Tali in the game. But for Tali, they acknowledged how one might not want her in the game and did it in a reasonable manner in the game. That said, the game also allows me to define my relationship with Tali for the first two games. I don't get that with Liara? Why can't I be mean to Liara? What is bad about being able to be antagonistic to Liara?

They did choose to save Joker. I get to define my relationship with him too. 

False, no matter what you are forced to be buddy buddy with Joker after you see him again in ME2, after he just got you killed.

Not necessarily. You could be a hardass on him if you wanted too, and in ME3, you really could be more of an ass later, to a point where Shepard and Joker are basically on non-speaking terms. But yeah, I see what you mean. And it's a limitation. 

You're talking about on the ship, I'm talking about soon as you meet him after Freedoms progress. That scene is where the ME series started to fall because it was the first time and not the last that you where forced into something outside yhe story that your character would not agree with. People like to say it started in ME3 with the forced friendship with Liara that dotted ME3(something that I don't like mind you and I am a Liara fan as these should have been for only a person who romanced her) , but that's simply false. It started in ME2 with Joker after Freedoms progress.

Arguably, it started earlier than that; Liara in ME1 was really the only character you were consistently unable to really define your relationship with. I'm not one of the people saying the relationship between characters was the best.

At least however, I get to define how the relationship with Joker goes throughout the trilogy. And I have it so that it's more or less steadily a deteriorating friendship that completely breaks down by the end of ME3.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Plotting (Saren, Virmire, etc) is what binds all the events together. But it doesn't dictate the details or sequence or relationships involved. That's what Bioware tries to give to the player. To say they don't care about anyone's choice at all is unfounded. They put a gargantuan amount of work into saying they do care.

No matter what in ME, you stop Sovie, no matter what in ME2 you stop the Colloctors, it's funny enough only possible in ME3 to fail in the story.

Yeah, and what a great job they did on that...

The irony is this, people complain they did not have choices in ME3 depsite the facting that the main story ends vaslty diffrent then the past two games allowed you, whatever it was well done or not means nothing(I don't think it was well done mind you)

Mass Effect is a trilogy, so of course they're going to have fixed endings to a degree, the small variables however are up to you.

ME is only a trilogy because Bioware wanted to cash in on the trilogy wagon, but it's hardly a trilogy. Each game is stand alone, with fluff.

Mass Effect 1, maybe. I would not say so for ME2.

Hahahaha no. ME2 is very much a stand laone game, hell it's pretty much a reboot as it changed alot of lore and put all the old characters from ME to the side of the road for a whole new cast. That's very much a stand alone game, with added fluff via the horrible import system.

Really? With the extensive referrences to ME1, the contant mention of the Reapers, plus the cliff-hanger style ending?