307 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

You can be a complete ass to Liara in ME, I've done it. You can do that to pretty much everyone in the first game. After ME each game had lots of restrictions.

[ImaginaryMatter]

David7204 wrote...

Maybe because a 'Reaper killing plan' introduce in ME 2 would be incredibly mediocre writing? Maybe because revealing the solution to how the Reapers are beaten before they even appear cripples the depth and drama of the story? 

Characters acting reasonably by responding to a threat is bad writing? Instead of just burying their heads in the sand for the sake of drama. Coming up with a plan is not the same as a sure fire solution or the guarantee that such a plan will work.

Again, good and bad writing is not an absolute, they do not fit into your narrow wiki definitions of things.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 13 janvier 2014 - 12:00 .

[von uber]

themikefest wrote...

Simple. I would kill T'soni in the shadow busted dlc, convince Vasir to help with defeating the Shadow Broker and then  make Vasir the broker who eventually discovers the plans on Mars and meets the council with Shepard.

How would Vasir, a non-prothean expert, discover the prothean plans? What makes you think Vasir would be a good SB? And what would the rest of your squadmates think of you killing Liara (the person who actually allowed you to be alive) in cold blood?

[Mr.House]

The cliff hanger ending, that was 100% alike to the ending of Mass Effect 1. The Reaper mentions that really did not matter because the Collectors and rainbow mercs where the main villain of ME and where also all dealt with in that game. ME2 was a self contained story that simply mentioned events from the first game and had those really crappy cameos so Bioware could warrant putting the two on the title.

[AresKeith]

von uber wrote...

themikefest wrote...

Simple. I would kill T'soni in the shadow busted dlc, convince Vasir to help with defeating the Shadow Broker and then  make Vasir the broker who eventually discovers the plans on Mars and meets the council with Shepard.

How would Vasir, a non-prothean expert, discover the prothean plans? What makes you think Vasir would be a good SB? And what would the rest of your squadmates think of you killing Liara (the person who actually allowed you to be alive) in cold blood?

Yea as much as I like Vasir myself, she wouldn't be a good choice for SB 

[o Ventus]

Mr.House wrote...

ME is only a trilogy because Bioware wanted to cash in on the trilogy wagon, but it's hardly a trilogy. Each game is stand alone, with fluff. 

I'm the most cynical person I know, and I think this post is beyond stupid. Not only have numerous Bioware employees outright stated that it was made with the trilogy format in mind, but it also follows the traditional narrative sequence of a trilogy. If you don't even present an argument to defend your point, then your point was bad and not at all worth making.

The only non-trilogy-esque thing about ME is that 3 chose not to follow up on elements introduced in 2.

Modifié par o Ventus, 13 janvier 2014 - 12:04 .

[David7204]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Maybe because a 'Reaper killing plan' introduce in ME 2 would be incredibly mediocre writing? Maybe because revealing the solution to how the Reapers are beaten before they even appear cripples the depth and drama of the story? 

Characters acting reasonably by responding to a threat is bad writing? Instead of just burying their heads in the sand for the sake of drama. Coming up with a plan is not the same as a sure fire solution or the guarantee that such a plan will work.

Except when it is.

As soon as Liara introduced the Crucible nobody had a shred of doubt that was what was going to used to defeat the Reapers. It wouldn't be any different in ME 2.

Preparing for the Reapers by making preparations which turn out to be narratively insignificant is great. Narratively significant preparations? Not so much.

Modifié par David7204, 13 janvier 2014 - 12:04 .

[Mr.House]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't know.. I want to give them a pass, since few are making import games like this anyways. I'd rather encourage more attempts, than trash the ones that exist. Someone will eventually do something even more amazing with the idea one day.

I've said before though that the story they're trying to tell has been done better in books/tv shows/film trilogies. There's more continuity and less demand to "always be a good time for new people to jump in".

All games that have done importing have done a horrible job at it, no one has done a good job. It's a flawed concept that should simply be dropped.

[dreamgazer]

AresKeith wrote...

Yea as much as I like Vasir myself, she wouldn't be a good choice for SB 

I wouldn't want her as the broker, but I'd definitely want her on my squad.

[Br3admax]

Liara couldn't even read the plans, let alone tell what they could do, so how is her being a prothean expert even considered here? She was picked because she had the SB's resources, not because she knew the protheans favorite snack food.

As to killing Liara, doubt that anyone except Garrus or Tali would care considering that they didn't even know her or care about her in anyway.

Modifié par Br3ad, 13 janvier 2014 - 12:06 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Mr.House wrote...

The cliff hanger ending, that was 100% alike to the ending of Mass Effect 1. The Reaper mentions that really did not matter because the Collectors and rainbow mercs where the main villain of ME and where also all dealt with in that game. ME2 was a self contained story that simply mentioned events from the first game and had those really crappy cameos so Bioware could warrant putting the two on the title.

I thought most of the cameos were pretty good, as long as they weren't major characters. Despite how much I like ME2 as a game out of the trilogy. It really should have been renamed: The Space Adventures of Shepard and Friends... In Space! though.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Yea as much as I like Vasir myself, she wouldn't be a good choice for SB 

I wouldn't want her as the broker, but I'd definitely want her on my squad.

Maybe not my squad, but I'd like to call her an ally. 

I'd much prefer someone else is the Broker than Liara. Or if she absolutely *has* to be it, to have the ability to tell her that it's her priority in ME3 and tell her that she needs to focus on that and get off the Normandy.

[Mr.House]

o Ventus wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

ME is only a trilogy because Bioware wanted to cash in on the trilogy wagon, but it's hardly a trilogy. Each game is stand alone, with fluff. 

I'm the most cynical person I know, and I think this post is beyond stupid. Not only have numerous Bioware employees outright stated that it was made with the trilogy format in mind, but it also follows the traditional narrative sequence of a trilogy. If you don't even present an argument to defend your point, then your point was bad and not at all worth making.

Because Bioware devs have never lied at all. Also what narrative? What trilogy has throwen characters to the side of the road and introduced a new villian that is dealt with in the same game to create a filler that was a well told trilogy? Come on, give me examples.

Modifié par Mr.House, 13 janvier 2014 - 12:07 .

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Yea as much as I like Vasir myself, she wouldn't be a good choice for SB 

I wouldn't want her as the broker, but I'd definitely want her on my squad.

I'd have her on my squad too, or atleast a very useful ally

[themikefest]

von uber wrote...

themikefest wrote...

Simple. I would kill T'soni in the shadow busted dlc, convince Vasir to help with defeating the Shadow Broker and then  make Vasir the broker who eventually discovers the plans on Mars and meets the council with Shepard.

How would Vasir, a non-prothean expert, discover the prothean plans? What makes you think Vasir would be a good SB? And what would the rest of your squadmates think of you killing Liara (the person who actually allowed you to be alive) in cold blood?

By using the leads the Shadow broker had and calling upon other prothean experts. What squadmates are you referring to?. The ME1 squadmates. Garrus,Tali and Wrex. I don't give a crap about them. T'soni allowing me to be alive. No. She may of given my body to Cerberus, but she didn't allow me to be alive. That was in the hands of Miranda who I'm thankful for.. 

Modifié par themikefest, 13 janvier 2014 - 12:49 .

[Darknessknight32]

KaiserShep wrote...

One thing that I always pondered on was how the prothean scientists were able to create that link between the Citadel and Ilos in the first place if the reapers struck there first.

if i remember it correctly, they deleted all documents and etc. about the location, when they were attacked.

[o Ventus]

Mr.House wrote...

Because Bioware devs have never lied at all. Also what narrative? What trilogy has throwen characters to the side of the road and introduced a new villian that is dealt with in the same game to create a filler that was a well told trilogy? Come on, give me examples.

I can't recall ME2 as having "created a new villain". All 3 games have you fighting the Reapers by proxy, through Saren, the Collectors, and Cerberus, respectively. ME1 and 2 both even offered miscellaneous enemies via the mercenaries and pirates. 3 is the onl one that doesn't.

As far as "throwing characters to the road" is concerned, all 3 games did this at some point. Anderson does a whole lotta nothin in ME1, the VS does jack-all in 2, and nearly all returning ME2 characters do diddly d**k in 3. In what way does this particular point have anything to do with the trilogy format?

[ImaginaryMatter]

David7204 wrote...

Except when it is.

As soon as Liara introduced the Crucible nobody had a shred of doubt that was what was going to used to defeat the Reapers. It wouldn't be any different in ME 2.

Preparing for the Reapers by making preparations which turn out to be narratively insignificant is great. Narratively significant preparations? Not so much.

Okay, sure. Except some one just said 'Reaper killing plan' without specifying anything detailed about it and that the comment had more to do with the lack of planning out the trilogy ahead of time; yet you just instantly declared it bad writing for no reason.

Again, good or bad writing does not fit your narrow views. I suggest you start viewing more stories that disagree with you and expand your depth a little.

[Kem]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

1. Relay network.

2. Earth is about equally important as 3 other council planets and the worst place to target as most reapers are concentrated on earth. Better to divide and conquer.

3. Listen to what Liara says. We know crucible is a sort of a weapon, but totally oblvious as to what it does. Nobody knows that the crucible is a weapon that kills all the reapers in first 30 min of the game.

4. I clearly mentioned I'm talking about flaws in the first 30 min, at which point nobody even knows the fact that citadel is crucble. In addition, right in the paragraph before this, I was talking about how they should initially have planned to defend the citadel instead of earth, at which point the citadel was under council possession. Of course you don't understand any of my logic if you haven't even read my thread carefully.

1)Great,control over the relay network.That was an important part of the reapers plan...before the Keepers where reprogrammed,before Sovereign got smashed to bits and before the Alpha Relay was destroyed.Anyway that's completly besides the point I'm making.What you're suggesting is the most preposterous thing I've heard on this forum.You're saying that every council race should have sacrificed billions of lives just to protect a space station that wasn't even under attack.What you are presenting as being "logical" is in fact utterly insane.

2)That's exactly what I'm saying.Not once is it implied in the first  "30 min of gameplay" that "Earth is more special" then any other planet.Shepard doesn't ask the council for help because Earth is special,he asks for help because it's his home and humanity won't survive on it's own.That's the same reason no one jumps to help him at first.Their #1 priority is to secure their own home's safety.On top of that Shepared presents them (in his own words) with "a lot of unknows" in the form of the Cruciable.How is this so hard to understand?The plot holes that already riddle the trilogy aren't enough you have to creat imaginary ones just to have something to bash?

The only thing "divided" in your scenario would be the council races.If a united galaxy barely managed to do a dent in the reaper forces how do you think a divided one would fair?And with no crucible none the less.

3)No,I heard what she said perfectly.Liara says:Priority Mars "I've discovered the plans for a Prothean device.One that could wipe out the Reapers.",Post Priority Mars "[...]A weapon massive in size and scope,that's capable of unquantifiable levels of destruction."

4)Yes,you mentioned 30 minutes at the beginning of your thread but then you began to talk about events that take place 1 hour into the game (the talk with the council).Anyway,you asked why take the Crucible to Earth where they would risk destroying it.I replied that they had to do it because the missing piece was there.Now you're saying "*gibberish*30 min *gibberish*.Nothing is mentioned about taking the Crucible anywhere in the first "30 min" of the game.Nothing.Again you're trying to creat plot holes where there are none.Why not stick to the old ones?Goddess knows there are plenty enough for everyone.

[David7204]

She did specify, whether she meant to or not. She was complaining about the Crucible, complaining about a real or imagined lack of planning. She clearly was not interested in narratively insignificant preparations. She wants something to come along in ME 2 to solve the Reaper problems in ME 3. Or thinks she wants it, anyway.

[von uber]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I'd much prefer someone else is the Broker than Liara. Or if she absolutely *has* to be it, to have the ability to tell her that it's her priority in ME3 and tell her that she needs to focus on that and get off the Normandy.

Garrus should be on Palaven. Tali should be with the fleet. Miranda should be with Hackett helping the Alliance fight Cerberus (or leading teams to go fight them using her knowledge). And so on.
And as Liara states, all she basically needs is a laptop and her contact list. Why not be on the Normandy where she can also help Shepard as needed?
One of the characters has to be a constant link between the trilogy, if you are gpoing to do save imports across them. Bioware chose Liara; deal with it.

[Iakus]

David7204 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

These two are probably due to poor planning on BioWare's part, since they involve the whole lack of preparedness thing. For some reason BioWare did not seem super interested in creating a Reaper killing plan ahead of time.

Maybe because a 'Reaper killing plan' introduce in ME 2 would be incredibly mediocre writing? Maybe because revealing the solution to how the Reapers are beaten before they even appear cripples the depth and drama of the story? 

Well, the Council of Elrond Came up with a Sauron-killing plan in the middle of the first intallment.

How mediocre is that?

[David7204]

Lord of the Rings never had the destruction of the ring very heavily built up as an impossible task beforehand. Stories have different foreshadowing and derive their drama from different sources.

[o Ventus]

David7204 wrote...

Lord of the Rings never had the destruction of the ring very heavily built up as an impossible task beforehand. Stories have different foreshadowing and derive their drama from different sources.

... Not really. Both feature a near omnipotent antagonist with a wide sphere of influence and powerful underlings, an otherwise ordinary person cast as the protagonist who meets up with a number of fantastical side characters as allies, and the journeys of both protagonists are described to be absurdly difficult, if not impossible. Hell, one could argue that ME even has an answer to Gollum in the form of the Illusive Man. Both were relatively normal people who were inadvertently exposed to an otherworldly or supernatural artifact that deteriorated their mental  state, both started out as allies and guides to the protagonist, and both became direct enemies of the protagonist near the end.

The only real branch is that Sauron doesn't try to tell Frodo that Frodo could replace him as The Lord of Mordor and command his army of orcs, or that Frodo could give every living being in Middle Earth a tiny fragment of the ring and turn them into half-Maiar.

Modifié par o Ventus, 13 janvier 2014 - 01:09 .