435 réponses à ce sujet

[Daemul]

ginner dave wrote...

Reapers are right? What the hell man?

I miss the days when the Reaper groupie, 'synthesis is the answer to everything' threads were restricted to notable crazies like Auld Wolf and Seival. Now they're everywhere. Everyone's losing their minds.

And what if Javik was right? About everthing?

Right about what?

Modifié par Daemul, 17 janvier 2014 - 06:35 .

[AlanC9]

ruggly wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Objectively speaking, two weeks of peace after 400 years of hot and cold war isn't very impressive. Rannoch feels like a big deal to the player because of the character investment we have and the way it's been integrated as a huge plot in all 3 games, but from a millenial historical perspective I don't see how it will impress the Catalyst in the slightest.

Then they probably would have been better off not making peace possible at all. 

Didn't Gaider post something to this effect over on the DA:I boards?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlanC9 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Objectively speaking, two weeks of peace after 400 years of hot and cold war isn't very impressive. Rannoch feels like a big deal to the player because of the character investment we have and the way it's been integrated as a huge plot in all 3 games, but from a millenial historical perspective I don't see how it will impress the Catalyst in the slightest.

Then they probably would have been better off not making peace possible at all. 

Didn't Gaider post something to this effect over on the DA:I boards?

I think he did.

[Ieldra]

NeroonWilliams wrote...
If you refuse to believe anything the AI says, you have no business continuing this discussion.

I will attempt one more analogy before throwing my arms up in disgust at your intransigence.

**Keep in mind that I know that this is NOT how electric lines actually work.  The effect is correct for this analogy NOT for real life.**

A tree is growing several branches that may soon come in contact with a high voltage power line or grow around it.  If one of those branches should actually come in contact with the power line, the whole tree will be incinerated.

Is it safer for the tree as a whole to be left alone and hope that those branches that are so close to the line never actually touch it, or would it be safer for a groundskeeper to prune the branches that are close, so that they don't pose a threat to the life of the tree?

Ahem.

Tree = Organic life
Power line = Singularity that will annihilate all Organic life
Branches that are close = the current spacefaring galactic civilizations
Groundskeeper with pruning shears = the AI

Is this bad for the branches in question?  YES.
Is this good for the tree in question?  YES.

I wash my hands of you who insist on argueing ethics with an entity (the AI) that doesn't recognize your ethics as necessary.

This is a really good analogy. I've compared the galaxy to a garden before, from the perspective of the Catalyst, a garden that must be tended and that includes the occasional pruning, but your analogy brings the point home. I'd still argue it's still badly presented in the story, but the logic itself is sound.

As for the ethics, yeah, that gets really tiresome.

Edit:
Yes, I agree the premise would've been more convincing without the possibility of peace at Rannoch.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:10 .

[SpamBot2000]

Oh, this again.

It takes a special mindset to see omnicide (repeated some 20,000 times) as a valid policy. Congrats.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:41 .

[Obadiah]

Do not mire yourself in pointless revolt. Do not sacrifice everything for the sake of petty freedoms.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Ieldra2 wrote...

NeroonWilliams wrote...
If you refuse to believe anything the AI says, you have no business continuing this discussion.

I will attempt one more analogy before throwing my arms up in disgust at your intransigence.

**Keep in mind that I know that this is NOT how electric lines actually work.  The effect is correct for this analogy NOT for real life.**

A tree is growing several branches that may soon come in contact with a high voltage power line or grow around it.  If one of those branches should actually come in contact with the power line, the whole tree will be incinerated.

Is it safer for the tree as a whole to be left alone and hope that those branches that are so close to the line never actually touch it, or would it be safer for a groundskeeper to prune the branches that are close, so that they don't pose a threat to the life of the tree?

Ahem.

Tree = Organic life
Power line = Singularity that will annihilate all Organic life
Branches that are close = the current spacefaring galactic civilizations
Groundskeeper with pruning shears = the AI

Is this bad for the branches in question?  YES.
Is this good for the tree in question?  YES.

I wash my hands of you who insist on argueing ethics with an entity (the AI) that doesn't recognize your ethics as necessary.

This is a really good analogy. I've compared the galaxy to a garden before, from the perspective of the Catalyst, a garden that must be tended and that includes the occasional pruning, but your analogy brings the point home. I'd still argue it's still badly presented in the story, but the logic itself is sound.

As for the ethics, yeah, that gets really tiresome.

Edit:
Yes, I agree the premise would've been more convincing without the possibility of peace at Rannoch.

And I thought Reaper indoctrination was something that only happened in the actual games. Never expected it to actually work on ME gamers:P

[AlanC9]

Ah yes... when all else fails stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU INDOCTRINATION LA LA LA"....

[SpamBot2000]

Reaper sympathy, on the other hand, is not "failing" at all, right?

[Comrade Wakizashi]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

NeroonWilliams wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...


Even if that were true (but I don't count cut content as canon, because it's not in the canon game), would it be better than living as a human being, even with the risk of eventual annihilation by a synthetic?
Eternal life as an enslaved abomination (if we follow what you believe) or imminent death and harvesting of your genetic material is hardly a working alternative to continuing normal organic existance, even with the question of wether or not synthetics will eventually wipe us out remaining open.

(I don't count anything that isn't in the actual game as canon either)

You are failing to take into account that YOU as an individual don't matter in the slightest to the AI.  The only thing that matters to it is its core goal: to ensure that organic life continues to exist.  If you (as a member of a species capable of producing a singularity capable of wiping out all organic life) oppose it, then you need to be thwarted in your attempts to interfere with its mission.  If you are being harvested it is not for YOUR benefit.  It is for the benefit of the species who are NOT being harvested.

Only if you believe the Catalyst's claims. For which I see no reason of doing.

If you refuse to believe anything the AI says, you have no business continuing this discussion.

I will attempt one more analogy before throwing my arms up in disgust at your intransigence.

**Keep in mind that I know that this is NOT how electric lines actually work.  The effect is correct for this analogy NOT for real life.**

A tree is growing several branches that may soon come in contact with a high voltage power line or grow around it.  If one of those branches should actually come in contact with the power line, the whole tree will be incinerated.

Is it safer for the tree as a whole to be left alone and hope that those branches that are so close to the line never actually touch it, or would it be safer for a groundskeeper to prune the branches that are close, so that they don't pose a threat to the life of the tree?

Ahem.

Tree = Organic life
Power line = Singularity that will annihilate all Organic life
Branches that are close = the current spacefaring galactic civilizations
Groundskeeper with pruning shears = the AI

Is this bad for the branches in question?  YES.
Is this good for the tree in question?  YES.

I wash my hands of you who insist on argueing ethics with an entity (the AI) that doesn't recognize your ethics as necessary.

Except for the branches being trillions of lives, and the electrical line being no material thing in the ME universe. There is no objective singularity point in the Catalyst's logic. Only the logical assumption that there will be such a singularity soon.
A perfectly rational assumption, that's true.

But is that reason enough to go cutting the branches (read massacring billions)? Based purely on an (admittetly logical) assumption? For me, it seems the cons outweigh the pros in this regard.

Your analogy is not entirely correct. It would be correct if you replace the electricty line with the possibility that there will be an electricity line in the near future. And the branch-cutter would believe that the branches will reach an electricity line at some point in the future, because he has seen it before, with another tree (the Leviathan's thralls). So indeed, the branch-cutter has experience, he has witnessed something similar before. But does that mean that the branch-cutter is right in assuming it must necessarily happen with this tree as well? In assuming he must always cut of the branches at a certain time, lest the tree be inevitably lost?

Don't get me wrong. I've never said the Catalyst is necessarily wrong. It can be right. It can also be wrong. We don't know, and I'm not willing to bet the existance of the entire sentient galaxy on believing it is right in this one assumption.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ah yes... when all else fails stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU INDOCTRINATION LA LA LA"....

It just scares me that some people are like: "total and complete galactical genocide? Sure!"

[Obadiah]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Ah yes... when all else fails stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU INDOCTRINATION LA LA LA"....

It just scares me that some people are like: "total and complete galactical genocide? Sure!"

It wasn't "total" or "complete".

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Obadiah wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Ah yes... when all else fails stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU INDOCTRINATION LA LA LA"....

It just scares me that some people are like: "total and complete galactical genocide? Sure!"

It wasn't "total" or "complete".

You're right. They left the cockroaches alive. With the amount of destruction they brought to Earth in a matter of weeks, I doubt much animal life would have survived their total harvest.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Ah yes... when all else fails stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU INDOCTRINATION LA LA LA"....

It just scares me that some people are like: "total and complete galactical genocide? Sure!"

No one was saying they agree with the Catalyst's solution, just acknowledging how theoretically it can be interpreted as a solution -- especially by one that is not privy to organic morality. Though yes, you do deserve to be scared.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Ah yes... when all else fails stick your fingers in your ears and yell "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU INDOCTRINATION LA LA LA"....

It just scares me that some people are like: "total and complete galactical genocide? Sure!"

No one was saying they agree with the Catalyst's solution, just acknowledging how theoretically it can be interpreted as a solution -- especially by one that is not privy to organic morality. Though yes, you do deserve to be scared.

It wasn't just about it having a point in theory. Heck, even I agree with that, as I always have said.
My problem is with people who answer the question of "Are the Reapers right?" with yes.

[AlanC9]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Reaper sympathy, on the other hand, is not "failing" at all, right?

Who actually expressed that?

[SpamBot2000]

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Reaper sympathy, on the other hand, is not "failing" at all, right?

Who actually expressed that?

I hear the Reapers did, so it must be true!

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 17 janvier 2014 - 10:00 .

[AlanC9]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

It wasn't just about it having a point in theory. Heck, even I agree with that, as I always have said.
My problem is with people who answer the question of "Are the Reapers right?" with yes.

I agree that "yes" is going a bit far. We don't have the right evidence to know that they were right. But on the evidence that we do have, it's conceivable that they were right. 

Although if they were right, my preferred course of action would be to simply let synthetics surpass and extinguish organic life rather than try to stall the process.

[AlanC9]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Reaper sympathy, on the other hand, is not "failing" at all, right?

Who actually expressed that?

The Reapers did, so it must be true!

Jeez... it's like shotgun julia without the jokes.

(If you're reading this, SJ, sorry I can't get the intercapitalization right)

[SpamBot2000]

AlanC9 wrote...

Jeez... it's like shotgun julia without the jokes.

... so the bartender says "You actually think that I asked for a 12-inch pianist?"

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 17 janvier 2014 - 10:06 .

[Obadiah]

Yeah, can't really have a discussion on something this polarizing if people are going to start bringing their feelings into it.

[Farangbaa]

AlanC9 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

It wasn't just about it having a point in theory. Heck, even I agree with that, as I always have said.
My problem is with people who answer the question of "Are the Reapers right?" with yes.

I agree that "yes" is going a bit far. We don't have the right evidence to know that they were right. But on the evidence that we do have, it's conceivable that they were right. 

Although if they were right, my preferred course of action would be to simply let synthetics surpass and extinguish organic life rather than try to stall the process.

So choose destroy

[Ridwan]

No they're not right and I can't understand why anyone would try and think that. They're a bunch of murdering monsters following the orders of an insane space ghost.

[ruggly]

Obadiah wrote...

Yeah, can't really have a discussion on something this polarizing if people are going to start bringing their feelings into it.

I don't think it's possible to not have a conversation without bringing some sort of feelings into it, case in point every ending topic ever made in these boards.

[Ridwan]

Daemul wrote...

M25105 wrote...

No they're not right and I can't understand why anyone would try and think that. They're a bunch of murdering monsters following the orders of an insane space ghost.

http://politiek.star...mj-laughing.gif

"We're killing you, cause you might create stuff that might kill, so therefor we kill you before that happens lololol."There's no debate about this ****, if you want to keep posting gifs go on, but you're essentially saying that a bunch of tentacle robot fish are right to slaughter us cause space Casper thinks so.

Modifié par M25105, 17 janvier 2014 - 10:48 .