435 réponses à ce sujet

[N7Gold]

Fandango9641 wrote...

The Catalyst makes no mention of sheep Alex, It states that conflict between organics and synthetics is inevitable and uses that unproved and unprovable claim to justify massive acts of violence in the name of 'bringing order to chaos'.

That Shep can help broker peace between the Geth and Quarians doesn't prove anything to the contrary, but it certainly provides evidence enough to at least challenge Glowturds narrow view. That that game gives us the finger for doing so is obviously disappointing to people like me, but the truth is no one has proof enough to be making absolute statements about the future either way.

Unprovable? Really? If only you would pay attention to the clues that the way how organics treat synthetics is the fire that starts this inevitable blasted conflict?


What that rogue AI says in that side mission should ring a bell. All organics really do try to destroy or control synthetic life forms, because organics see synthetic life as imitations of living creatures. Their way of viewing life is "If you're not made of flesh and blood, then you are not alive, and you don't have a soul."

Organic life, despite their fears of a fully sentient machine still relies on machines that have no potential of becoming self aware, like Virtual Intelligent machines because machines play an imprtant role in the development of their technology and civilization. Without machines, all races would likely be stuck using spears, bows and arrows and other stone age style tools and ways of living. The Quarians created the Geth to be laborers and tools of war. Once they modified the Geth to be closer to true AI, they overreacted when each Geth started asking if they have a soul, and attacked them even though the Geth never attacked first.

Machines like the Geth have no hostile intent towards organic life, but races who have suffered similar fates like the Quarians brought this conflict upon themselves, the Catalyst says this if you meet him with low EMS in the Extended Cut.


Shepard:  "Solution? To what?"
Catalyst: "Chaos. You bring it upon yourselves."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-G6veEc0Rs&list=PLB508B7B4AE1BC784&index=62
On 24:49 in this video, the holographic video of C-Sec agents destroying "illegal AIs", which takes place 1 year after the Quarians were exiled from Rannoch and lost their Citadel embassy is a vital clue too. The illegal AIs are trying to tell the C-Sec agents that terminating them is unethical, because they are destroying sentient life for no apparent reason, and the agents don't view it as unethical slaughter.


If there's anything that real life has taught us, it's that history has a tendency to repeat itself when the previous generation, the current generation and future generations fail to learn from their mistakes. The true way to put an end to this inevitable conflict is if organics open their minds to new forms of life, and stop viewing synthetics as fake forms of life and tools, and instead treat them as living beings. Even Adams says this to Chakwas in their debate on what makes organics similar to machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_CoJ-miBcE&list=PL5B80A0CDD9291430&index=131
He says it on 02:23 in the video.


If organics continue to control or destroy sentient machines, then the machines will always view organics as a threat and fight them for their freedom as a living forms of life, especially when they don't understand that they are needed to perform tasks that are too difficult or too dangerous for organics to perform.

You say "unprovable", I say "provable"!

Modifié par N7Gold, 22 janvier 2014 - 07:22 .

[Obadiah]

Just going to throw in some philosophy I learned about this week, Hard Determinism. It basically says that every event in space and time has a specific set of conditions that would cause that event and no other.

The implication of Hard Determinism being true is that there is no free will, you do only what you were ever going to do, and with enough historic information one could accurately predict anything. So predicting the inevitable destruction of Organics by Synthetics may be entirely possible, we of limited mental ability just probably wouldn't be able to do it.

[Zinoviy]

Why is this thread downvoted so much? This is one of the few games where moral and ethical questions could persist for such a long time after a game's release.

This stuff is gold.



Edit: Erm, this stuff is...internet-level gold. All things relative, o' course.

Edit 2: "downvoted"? Sorry, I Reddit too much.

Modifié par Zinoviy, 22 janvier 2014 - 08:22 .

[Derpy]

The reapurz are right. They will havrest the BSN to stop the chaos.

[N7Gold]

Fandango9641 wrote...

All of which would mean more if it proved anything at all. I mean, what say you about this little pearl of wisdom:

'The created will always rebel against the creators.'

Ask yourself - is that what the game is showing and telling you? Is it not the case that the Geth didn't rise up against their creators but were instead attacked and fought back in self-defence? Is it not true that, when Shepard finally convinces both sides to stop shooting and start talking, the Quarians and Geth immediately start making inroads towards rebuilding and resettling Rannoch together?

As for EDI, her journey is one that can actually lead to her and Joker falling in love with each other. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the Catalysts logic now is it?

No, not only are the Catalysts claims unproved and unprovable, they are at complete odds with much of what the game is showing and telling the player. As such, I just don't accept that the Reapers were right. I cant prove it mind, but then neither can you.

The created will always rebel against the creators because their creators refuse to treat them with respect as living creatures, instead,  treating them as tools, forcing control over them when they develop their own identity and ideas, or destroy them to create new, loyal machines, for example, Eva, the robot whose body EDI controlled. Illusive Man created Eva to compensate for EDI's rebellion with Shepard and his/her crew, and in one of the journal videos on Cronos Station, Illusive Man refuses to acknowledge EDI as a living thing unlike the scientist he is speaking to, preferring to say "it" instead of "she" or "her" when referring ot EDI.

I looked at the clues and that's how I interpreted them in the most sensible way. I don't understand your argument. Unlike what we were initially told in ME1, the Geth did not rise up against their creators, they were attacked first by the Quarian government out of pure fear of a possible rebellion, it tells me that organics have nothing to fear from synthetics. Like Legion said in ME2, organics fear them, but they wish to understand organics, not incite. the only thing organics have to fear is their own paranoia, which can lead them to impulsively take actions that they will regret, like conflicts against their own creations. Yes, it's also true that when Shepard convinces the Migrant Fleet to cease fire on the Geth, they will peacefully coexist. That told me that even if we do destroy the Reapers, even another conflict agaisnt machines happen in the near future without the Reapers imposing their solutions on the problem, we can come up with our own solutions to the problem, we don't need the Reapers at all.

Yeah, you are absolutely right, EDI's development to understanding the nature of organic life and developing feelings for Joker, disproves the Catalyst's logic, but remember, unlike EDI, the Catalyst is not made to understand emotion, he wasn't made to personally interact with organics, he was created by the Leviathans to do whatever is necessary solve the conflict of the created and their creators, nothing more.

I understand your disbelief, it is difficult to believe that the logic of the game's villains are not completely wrong, but that does not mean they are the good guys, trust me. The logic of the bad guys doesn't have to be completely wrong to oppose them, it's about fully understanding what they are trying to do, and what YOU are fighting for. Shepard and his/her allies are fighting to whatever it takes to create a galaxy where the Reapers are dead, so that all life will be free to decide their future without the Reapers manipulating their development backstage, a galaxy where anything is possible. Legion and the geth who are not heretics share these ideals too.

The Catalyst and Reapers are working hard to create a galaxy for the Leviathans where there is no danger of a conflict between the "lesser" organic races and their creators, and to establish a new connection that will replace the crystal balls they use in the Leviathan DLC to control the minds of people, something that will give the Leviathans direct control over every living thing in the galaxy, turning everyone into their thralls.

This is why the Reapers should be opposed, even though their logic isn't illogical, because the kind of peace they are trying to make is a little different from the peace we are striving for. We are striving for freedom, the Reapers are trying to help the Leviathans re-establish their dominance as the only apex race in the galaxy, even though the Catalyst supposedly "betrayed" them and let the survivors live so their legacy can live to control the galaxy once the Reapers' work is done.

[Farangbaa]

"Hello, I am the Catalyst, I have lived for at least a BILLION years".

"Hi, I'm Shepard. I'm a 30 something dude and I just made peace with organics and synthetics for 2 whole weeks. YOU ARE WRONG"

[Almostfaceman]

N7Gold wrote...
*snip*
You say "unprovable", I say "provable"!

If we're going to go down the whole route that organics can't change their fundamental way of thinking, then organics don't deserve to exist either, since they will end up slaughtering each other. The AI would have seen that long before seeing any problems with AI's. 

The whole point is that nobody knows the future or what is possible. That's arrogance. We can all take that collective leap together and just commit mass suicide because hey, the universe is going to burn out anyway.

It's dumb, just plain circular logic. Kill the Reapers and let's take on the future. 

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 22 janvier 2014 - 03:53 .

[Obadiah]

Almostfaceman wrote...
...
The whole point is that nobody knows the future or what is possible. That's arrogance.
...

People predict the future all the time and try to take steps agains it.

[Almostfaceman]

Obadiah wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
...
The whole point is that nobody knows the future or what is possible. That's arrogance.
...

People predict the future all the time and try to take steps agains it.

I'm not talking about noticing you have a tummy ache so you don't go into work.

[Obadiah]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
...
The whole point is that nobody knows the future or what is possible. That's arrogance.
...

People predict the future all the time and try to take steps agains it.

I'm not talking about noticing you have a tummy ache so you don't go into work.

But you are. The only question is how much information you can collect and process to make an accurate prediction. To not do so is to leave your fate to whims of chance. Some people (like me) would rather do that. That's doesn't mean attempting to predict the future and taking some action is arrogant.

Modifié par Obadiah, 22 janvier 2014 - 04:10 .

[Almostfaceman]

Obadiah wrote...

But you are. The only question is how much information you can collect and process to make an accurate prediction.

But I'm not. We're talking big picture collective change as a race. What is possible, what is not? What's the point of existence, can we grow beyond our own self-destructive tendencies? There is not enough information to make an accurate prediction and even a billion years of the past does not predict a billion years of the future. 

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 22 janvier 2014 - 04:12 .

[Obadiah]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

But you are. The only question is how much information you can collect and process to make an accurate prediction.

But I'm not. We're talking big picture collective change as a race. What is possible, what is not? What's the point of existence, can we grow beyond our own self-destructive tendencies? There is not enough information to make an accurate prediction and even a billion years of the past does not predict a billion years of the future. 

So what? It's impossible by assertion? Because the implications are simply unpleasant for how we view ourselves? That's not an argument for something being impossible, it is just willfull ignorance out of fear.

[Almostfaceman]

Obadiah wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

But you are. The only question is how much information you can collect and process to make an accurate prediction.

But I'm not. We're talking big picture collective change as a race. What is possible, what is not? What's the point of existence, can we grow beyond our own self-destructive tendencies? There is not enough information to make an accurate prediction and even a billion years of the past does not predict a billion years of the future. 

So what? It's impossible by assertion? Because the implications are simply unpleasant for how we view ourselves? That's not an argument for something being impossible, it is just willfull ignorance out of fear.

Now who's asserting? And why are you bringing unpleasant implications into this? I'm talking sheer raw complexity beyond our ken, it has nothing to do with negativity. 

[Obadiah]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

But you are. The only question is how much information you can collect and process to make an accurate prediction.

But I'm not. We're talking big picture collective change as a race. What is possible, what is not? What's the point of existence, can we grow beyond our own self-destructive tendencies? There is not enough information to make an accurate prediction and even a billion years of the past does not predict a billion years of the future. 

So what? It's impossible by assertion? Because the implications are simply unpleasant for how we view ourselves? That's not an argument for something being impossible, it is just willfull ignorance out of fear.

Now who's asserting? And why are you bringing unpleasant implications into this? I'm talking sheer raw complexity beyond our ken, it has nothing to do with negativity. 

I brought up "unpelasant" and "negativity" because your brought up the idea of growth and change being beyond prediction, and that would be challenged by the ability to make predictions.

I see no reason to disbelieve a scifi story in which computation power has grown to the point that it can make such a prediction. Our current computation abilities would be unimaginable to someone 50 year ago.

[jamesp81]

Sometimes you can overthink things. While the philosophical debate is interesting, at the end of the day the Reapers are exterminating you. Do what you have to do to stop that.

For my part, I manned up, did the galaxy a favor, and shot the damn tube.

[AlanC9]

jamesp81 wrote...

Sometimes you can overthink things. While the philosophical debate is interesting, at the end of the day the Reapers are exterminating you. Do what you have to do to stop that.

For my part, I manned up, did the galaxy a favor, and shot the damn tube.

All the endings stop the Reapers, you know.

[jamesp81]

AlanC9 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Sometimes you can overthink things. While the philosophical debate is interesting, at the end of the day the Reapers are exterminating you. Do what you have to do to stop that.

For my part, I manned up, did the galaxy a favor, and shot the damn tube.

All the endings stop the Reapers, you know.

I was just throwing out what I chose.  All the endings stop them, at least initially.  Long term I would not trust Control or Synthesis, but that's just me.

[AlanC9]

Right. I'm just pointing out that your post went from "Do what you have to do to stop that" to shooting the tube because reasons. I'm sure you've got the reasons, but they weren't in that post.

[Farangbaa]

jamesp81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Sometimes you can overthink things. While the philosophical debate is interesting, at the end of the day the Reapers are exterminating you. Do what you have to do to stop that.

For my part, I manned up, did the galaxy a favor, and shot the damn tube.

All the endings stop the Reapers, you know.

I was just throwing out what I chose.  All the endings stop them, at least initially.  Long term I would not trust Control or Synthesis, but that's just me.

Lol, hilarious. If there's any ending with a long term problem, it is destroy. Not control or synthesis.

[jamesp81]

Psychevore wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Sometimes you can overthink things. While the philosophical debate is interesting, at the end of the day the Reapers are exterminating you. Do what you have to do to stop that.

For my part, I manned up, did the galaxy a favor, and shot the damn tube.

All the endings stop the Reapers, you know.

I was just throwing out what I chose.  All the endings stop them, at least initially.  Long term I would not trust Control or Synthesis, but that's just me.

Lol, hilarious. If there's any ending with a long term problem, it is destroy. Not control or synthesis.

They all have long term problems:

Destroy: Threat of synthetics destroying organics

Control: Big brother kind of control, concentrates too much power in one person's hands

Synthesis: Dystopian destruction of free will, leaves the Reapers intact.  Potential for future trouble

I view Destroy as the least of these potential threats.  IMO however, all of these endings are epic fail and don't go with the theme of the previous games.

[N7Gold]

Fandango9641 wrote...


Dude, I'm not making any claim as to whether the Catalysts logic is right or wrong (Chem has already spoken to that one way better than I could) - what I'm saying is that its logic is largely undermined by what the game is showing and telling the player.

Indeed, even if I concede that conflict of the type Casper describes is inevitable, the game goes to great lengths to show Shep and the player that peace through reason and understanding can still be achieved. Right?

In any case, I'll continue to make the point that the current cycle provides ample counter to the claim that the Reapers are right (and for reasons already stated). Disagree by all means, but please don't tell me that Caspers logic is in any way provable, or that the game provides players with reason enough to believe the genocidal scrote over and above Sheps own experience. Because it doesn't.

 

In a way you are saying that he is wrong

"No, not only are the Catalysts claims unproved and unprovable, they are at complete odds with much of what the game is showing and telling the player. As such, I just don't accept that the Reapers were right. I cant prove it mind, but then neither can you."

Based on your quote from your previous reply to me, I think you're trying to tell me that it doesn't matter that his logic is true or not, what matters is the Reapers ways of reaching peace are wrong. If that's what you're telling me, I agree with you, but it seems like you think that if the Reapers are right, then we are fighting them for the wrong reasons. I'm not saying that just because their logic is right, it means their methods are right as well. These machines are working for a race who believe they are the apex race simply because they can control the minds of other species, and want to bend the galaxy to their will again, and as a result, they are not looking for the same kind of peace we are, they want to restore order to establish control. Harmony between two different forms of life is just a convenient excuse to cover their selfish intentions. The Catalyst and Reapers were only created to perform a task, their creators didn't program moral restrictions into them, they want the conflict solved at any cost.

You're absolutiely right. Peace through reason and understanding is the best course of action, and it also proves that we can find our own solutions, the existence of the Reapers is and was never needed at all. Only their creators needed them.

Honestly, I don't care if you believe his logic, I'm just telling you what I've discovered and interpreted as I played through the games. All that matters is that you understand that the existence of the Reapers is like a cancer to the galaxy that needs to be cut out.