435 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

They all have long term problems:

Destroy: Threat of synthetics destroying organics

Sure, if you trust the head Reaper about the Reapers being really the good guys - if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell.

[AlanC9]

Everyone always thinks himself to be the good guy, yep. But that doesn't mean the Catalyst is wrong.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

They all have long term problems:

Destroy: Threat of synthetics destroying organics

Sure, if you trust the head Reaper about the Reapers being really the good guys - if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell.

Or maybe you just believe such a thing (synthetics destroying organics, not Reapers being good-guys) anyway.

[Killdren88]

N7Gold wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

Nope. They aren't right. They assume they are based on millions of years of observing past cycles. All of them shows Organics and Synthetics waging war. Our Cycle where we can actually make peace with the Geth no matter how brief naysayers say, proves we can break the cycle of Flesh Vs Machine. All the Reapers do to me become self-fulling prophecies where they wipe out Organic life themselves being Synthetic.

History has a tendency to repeat itself, you know. The fact that we are able to make peace between the Geth and Quarians shows that organic life in general is slowly beginning to view synthetic life as more than imitations of life, and that the Reapers' methods of reaching peace between organics and synthetics is unnecessary. Conflict and peace are two sides of the same coin-- one cannot exist without the other. Conflict comes from confusion and misunderstanding, peace comes from understanding.

To achieve peace between the geth and the quarians, Shepard must keep Tali'Zorah, Legion and Zaal'Koris alive and to learn the truth about what happened during the Morning War, which is the quarian government, fearing a geth rebellion, declared martial law on Rannoch and mercilessly attacked the geth, and imprisoned or killed any quarians who defended them, and present the truth to the Migrant Fleet to get them to stop attacking the geth before Legion finishes uploading the Reaper code.

The Reapers are trying to reach a different kind of peace, one where all life, organics and synthetics alike live peacefully, but under the control of the arrogant Leviathans, a race who look exactly like the Reapers who also consider themselves the apex race, once enslaved all organic life eons before the Reapers were made, using them as tools, which is why the Reapers should still be opposed even though they are proven not to be the "Raaagh! Destroy all life!!!" kind of villains.

In short, the Reapers are right, but their methods don't create true peace between organics and synthetics, only an illusion of peace, so that their creators can regain their former glory as the dominant race of the galaxy.

Agreeable I suppose. But this is our cycle. The Reapers are killing our friends and family gridning some of them into organic paste to "Preserve" them. That is sick. They have no right to do that. They have no right to set course of the galaxy. That is pure arrogance to think they have the right to do so.It's easy to think about it logically when it's happening to someone else. But in this case, emotion sort of over takes the logic.

The Reapers are an obsolete solution yet they refuse to see it that way. We have proven that we are slowly starting to understand Synthetic life with the Geth. Sure the peace may not last, but it is proven that we can acheive it by our own means. We don't need the Reapers to dictate how we evolve. If what the Catalyst says is true that synthesis is inevitable, then we will reach it naturally as we slowly tear down the barriers of ignorance and fear and we embrace understanding and tolerance. Just as we did when we all rallied together to stop the Reapers. Sure will some bigotry and tolerance last even after the Reapers are gone? Sure, but it will be nothing like it was before, and soon it will slowly fade away into history. We will have control over our own fate. Not the control of machine who fancy themselves gods.

[Obadiah]

Just to shed some insight into the ethics of the Reapers, you can reconstruct the Catalyst's actions in terms of a Trolley Problem, and then get rid of the existing horror of the Reaper Cycle's end:

1) Imagine organic life developing along a path that where it would come to point such that the Catalyst could chose to guide it down one of only two paths of development, one where every 50,000 years the most advanced civilizations collapsed suddenly and eveyone was killed, or one where all organic life was destroyed. Which path should should the Catalyst direct organic life to develop along?

2) Now imagine that organic life is developing along one path which leads to its eventual complete destruction, but the Catalyst could prevent that complete destruction by itself executing/murdering/killing all advanced civilizations every 50,000 years with a thought. Should the Catalyst commit the execution?

The consequences of the both problems appear to be the same, but (if I did this right) ethically you should see them as different, and many people who see the Catalyst's actions as right in giving guidance in the first case, would not see that action as right in the second case. Of course, the stakes in the consequences here are raised to fairly high enough levels to further confuse the issue. One way to evaluate the ethics of this kind of action is with the Principle of Double Effect from the Christian traditions, but there are probably other ways.

Modifié par Obadiah, 23 janvier 2014 - 10:28 .

[jamesp81]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

They all have long term problems:

Destroy: Threat of synthetics destroying organics

Sure, if you trust the head Reaper about the Reapers being really the good guys - if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell.

A good point and, in fact, I *don't* believe the Starchild...which is why I choose Destroy.  I believe it's advocation of the other options is a trap and Destroy really is the correct choice.

[jamesp81]

AlanC9 wrote...

Everyone always thinks himself to be the good guy, yep. But that doesn't mean the Catalyst is wrong.

I have no reason to believe what it's saying and a whole host of reasons not to.  By its very nature, it will look out for its interests over yours and in any realistic case, your enemy's best interests are not your own.  If your interests and your enemy's interests matched, you wouldn't be enemies and you wouldn't be at war.  Your enemy also has no reason to tell you the truth and it would be folly to assume that he is.

At some level you have to start applying some common sense to problems.  I, for one, choose not to be open minded to the point that my brain falls out.  The Catalyst is my enemy, it's in the process of committing a genocide.  I can do these esoteric Control or Synthesis type things, or I can just shoot the damned tube and be done with its mass murder.  I always thought that was an obvious choice.

Now, the choice is a little off because we, as players, can meta game it if we want.  Meta gaming means you can be confident of choosing Control or Synthesis.  If you aren't meta gaming, however, I don't see any way Shepard could come to any conclusion other than Destroy.  Well, I take that back...certain Renegade Shepards might see Control as worthwhile as a way of gaining power for humanity (like TIM).  But even then, without meta gaming, this is probably not what most Shepards would do.

Modifié par jamesp81, 23 janvier 2014 - 03:05 .

[jamesp81]

Killdren88 wrote...

The Reapers are an obsolete solution yet they refuse to see it that way. We have proven that we are slowly starting to understand Synthetic life with the Geth. Sure the peace may not last, but it is proven that we can acheive it by our own means. We don't need the Reapers to dictate how we evolve. If what the Catalyst says is true that synthesis is inevitable, then we will reach it naturally as we slowly tear down the barriers of ignorance and fear and we embrace understanding and tolerance.

Agreed.  In this sense, Synthesis is like the Salarians uplifting the Krogan.  The Krogan weren't ready to be uplifted, but it was imposed upon them with disastrous results.  They should've been left alone to achieve advancement on their own terms.

In the same way, we should be left to achieve Synthesis on our terms, and not on the terms of a machine that thinks it's God.  Imposing it upon us is rife with danger, like handing the Krogan space fleets and modern tech that they weren't ready for.  If we develop synthesis on our own terms, we will be prepared for it when the day comes that we achieve it.  Like Legion was always saying, we will achieve our future on our own terms without the help of the Reapers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Sure, if you trust the head Reaper about the Reapers being really the good guys - if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell.

A good point and, in fact, I *don't* believe the Starchild...which is why I choose Destroy.  I believe it's advocation of the other options is a trap and Destroy really is the correct choice.

If you don't believe the Catalyst then how can you trust that the Destroy option does as it says rather than blowing something important up?

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 23 janvier 2014 - 04:56 .

[AlanC9]

jamesp81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Everyone always thinks himself to be the good guy, yep. But that doesn't mean the Catalyst is wrong.

I have no reason to believe what it's saying and a whole host of reasons not to.  By its very nature, it will look out for its interests over yours and in any realistic case, your enemy's best interests are not your own.  If your interests and your enemy's interests matched, you wouldn't be enemies and you wouldn't be at war.  Your enemy also has no reason to tell you the truth and it would be folly to assume that he is.

The italed is simply false. Many historical conflicts happened precisely because one or both sides were confused about their actual best interests.

"Common sense" often fails too, sometimes disastrously so.

Now, the choice is a little off because we, as players, can meta game it if we want.  Meta gaming means you can be confident of choosing Control or Synthesis.  If you aren't meta gaming, however, I don't see any way Shepard could come to any conclusion other than Destroy.  

 
As just noted, you have no real reason to believe that Destroy really is Destroy either. Believing in shooting the tube is a leap of faith or metagaming, take your pick.

[von uber]

There's a difference I think between believing what it functionally does and what the outcomes purport to be.

[AlanC9]

What's the difference?

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 janvier 2014 - 05:33 .

[von uber]

As in, for example, synthesis may turn everyone green with reaper tech but it might not be the wonderful utopia it describes. Or destroy may destroy but not be the apocalyptic bad idea it suggests.

[AlanC9]

Or destroy may be even worse than suggested, sure. I don't see where the line is between the two kinds of uncertainty here.

[N7Gold]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

They all have long term problems:

Destroy: Threat of synthetics destroying organics

Sure, if you trust the head Reaper about the Reapers being really the good guys - if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell.

Anyone who believes the Reapers are the good guys, I pity them

[AlanC9]

N7Gold wrote...

Anyone who believes the Reapers are the good guys, I pity them

Imagine how people's heads would have exploded if Bio'd used the Dark Energy plot.

[Killdren88]

AlanC9 wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Anyone who believes the Reapers are the good guys, I pity them

Imagine how people's heads would have exploded if Bio'd used the Dark Energy plot.

Would have been better if we didn't go into their motivations at all. I would have been fine with just fighting mechanical Eldritch Abominations.

[von uber]

AlanC9 wrote...

Or destroy may be even worse than suggested, sure. I don't see where the line is between the two kinds of uncertainty here.

What I am driving at is there may not be a uncertainty over the function but the outcome. So yes, destroy destroys, control controls etc but the actual effects (as you say, destroy may or may not be worse than it says) is what is in the air.

Or

Take your pick I guess.

Killdren88 wrote...

Would have been better if we didn't go into their motivations at all. I
would have been fine with just fighting mechanical Eldritch
Abominations.

Agree with that.

Modifié par von uber, 23 janvier 2014 - 07:35 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

I wish the Reapers remained the true alien force in the game as well, oh well.

[Wayning_Star]

I wonder?, could anyone explain what "Right" might represent in the Reaper/Catalyst perspective?

Thanks.

[jamesp81]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Sure, if you trust the head Reaper about the Reapers being really the good guys - if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell.

A good point and, in fact, I *don't* believe the Starchild...which is why I choose Destroy.  I believe it's advocation of the other options is a trap and Destroy really is the correct choice.

If you don't believe the Catalyst then how can you trust that the Destroy option does as it says rather than blowing something important up?

You can't entirely know for sure, but some things can be reasonably inferred.

1) the Crucible was originally intended to kill the Reapers and wasn't built by them.

2) The Catalyst seems to oppose the idea, and while doing something because my enemy is against it isn't enough of a reason by itself, it is one more thing that suggests it's viable.

3) The Catalyst's reason for not choosing Destroy is strongly in doubt if you make peace with Geth/Quarians.

Without metagaming, it's impossible to know 100% but, as I said, some things can be inferred.

[jamesp81]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I wish the Reapers remained the true alien force in the game as well, oh well.

There's some wisdom in this....Sovereign went on at length about how the Reapers were unknowable.  But that obviously wasn't true.  It kind of undid him as a character.

[Wayning_Star]

can you actually change the mind of the catalyst? I doubt you can 'kill' a reapership, destroy it yes, it's cargo. But reapers are a by product of their given races altered via the pesky catalyst. That critter is unknowable. But then getting to know all those races that comprise a reaper ship would pretty rough, I'd figure. When shepard talks to one or more of those they seem kind of stupid, probably by design, but we lowlies will never know for sure.

[Killdren88]

jamesp81 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

I wish the Reapers remained the true alien force in the game as well, oh well.

There's some wisdom in this....Sovereign went on at length about how the Reapers were unknowable.  But that obviously wasn't true.  It kind of undid him as a character.

When we frist encountered the Catalyst, I wanted the plot twist to be that he was what remained of Soverign trying to fool Shepard.

[Chief Capo]

N7Gold wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

They all have long term problems:

Destroy: Threat of synthetics destroying organics

Sure, if you trust the head Reaper about the Reapers being really the good guys - if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell.

Anyone who believes the Reapers are the good guys, I pity them

I don't think they're neccesarily good or bad, they're bad in the eyes of the races they're destroying ofc, but from a 3rd person perspective, i think they're neutral. Now, Cerberus on the other hand is bad lol, but i found that the aliens from the movie day the earth stood still, and the reapers in this game, have very similar motives

Modifié par Chief Capo, 23 janvier 2014 - 08:35 .