435 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Did the writer's simply not think about this? Or were they implying that when the Crucible 'changed the variables' it meant some reprogramming of the Catalyst?

I always figured it was the latter. This gets around some problems with the Catalyst's behavior.

It certainly does, but then again it does bring up another set of problems with the Crucible; mainly who added that feature to the Crucible, and how and why they added it when, supposedly, no one knew about the Catalyst.

I think a pretty decent plot for ME4 would be to explain the Crucible somehow, or fit an explanation into the game somewhere.

[Grizzly46]

Simply put, no, Catalyst was wrong.

Leviathan explained what the reapers were, and what the intelligence (the Catalyst, duh) had been tasked to do, namely to preserve LIFE.

But life is something living. A corpse was once alive, but is no longer, no more than the genetical matter in the reapers who are basically just coffins. This is were everything is screwed up with the entire reaper business: the leviathans created the intelligence so that it would preserve life, not genetical material, and I wonder what they did wrong - did they introduced a bug in the Catalyst's programming? Life = genetical material or something?

[Comrade Wakizashi]

ToJKa1 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...
In the high EMS Destroy ending, Shepard actually does survive.

Yes, i've seen that scene. But given how badly injured s/he was at the Crucible, and then lying in a pile of rubble his/her survival chances are pretty low. Not to mention the memorial scene that assumably happens quite a while after the fight, word would have reached them if s/he still was alive.

So i consider Shepard dead regardless of that

I'm pretty sure BioWare has confirmed him to be actually alive in the high EMS destroy ending.
(http://www.gameranx....-it-s-official/)
Also, as StreetMagic said, why would they make this extra scene just to have him day off-screen? Makes no sense. Not to mention it would be incredibly dickish towards their fanbase.
I don't really understand why some people want him dead so much. About 90% of all possible endings involve him dying, just allow us this one option of survival.

Modifié par Comrade Wakizashi, 14 janvier 2014 - 09:22 .

[Hazegurl]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
Any assumptions I had about the Reapers had come from conclusions I'd drawn myself from what the Reapers said.

Anyone remember that game called Mass Effect where you had that intimidating chat with that immortal huge machine called Soveriegn? And no matter how much you told him you'd stop him even you weren't partly convinced? The menace in Soveriegn's voice, it's confidence, weird coming from just a machine doing what it's told that has no interest in war.

How do you know the catalyst wasn't just speaking through Sovereign? 

[Hazegurl]

Grizzly46 wrote...

Simply put, no, Catalyst was wrong.

Leviathan explained what the reapers were, and what the intelligence (the Catalyst, duh) had been tasked to do, namely to preserve LIFE.

But life is something living. A corpse was once alive, but is no longer, no more than the genetical matter in the reapers who are basically just coffins. This is were everything is screwed up with the entire reaper business: the leviathans created the intelligence so that it would preserve life, not genetical material, and I wonder what they did wrong - did they introduced a bug in the Catalyst's programming? Life = genetical material or something?

It just shows that machines have no concept of what life actually is. They see genetic material as still functional/useful and therefore must be alive like a circuit is active and therefore it's live. Or whatever machine mumbo jumbo, I'm no electrician lol! 

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Hazegurl wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
Any assumptions I had about the Reapers had come from conclusions I'd drawn myself from what the Reapers said.

Anyone remember that game called Mass Effect where you had that intimidating chat with that immortal huge machine called Soveriegn? And no matter how much you told him you'd stop him even you weren't partly convinced? The menace in Soveriegn's voice, it's confidence, weird coming from just a machine doing what it's told that has no interest in war.

How do you know the catalyst wasn't just speaking through Sovereign? 

I think we can be pretty sure he was.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Hazegurl wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Simply put, no, Catalyst was wrong.

Leviathan explained what the reapers were, and what the intelligence (the Catalyst, duh) had been tasked to do, namely to preserve LIFE.

But life is something living. A corpse was once alive, but is no longer, no more than the genetical matter in the reapers who are basically just coffins. This is were everything is screwed up with the entire reaper business: the leviathans created the intelligence so that it would preserve life, not genetical material, and I wonder what they did wrong - did they introduced a bug in the Catalyst's programming? Life = genetical material or something?

It just shows that machines have no concept of what life actually is. They see genetic material as still functional/useful and therefore must be alive like a circuit is active and therefore it's live. Or whatever machine mumbo jumbo, I'm no electrician lol! 

Indeed, that's the entire point. The Reapers think they have a solution, and according to their logic it is completely logical indeed. But they're missing the entire point of what life means, making their entire logic flawed.

[SwobyJ]

The Reapers may have certain facts, records, and pattern recognition.

It doesn't mean them right.

Are they right?

No. They brought on a pretty pointless cycle of death. Just because some rose up against it and perhaps surpassed it, doesn't really mean the Cycle really did anything useful in itself.

If you mean 'are they CORRECT', then yes. They were correct based on a certain point of view. The Cycle stymied the issue of organics and synthetics fighting by putting omni-synthetics into the Galaxy Police that imposed Law on everything. It was their solution, and the writers have the Reapers largely accepting of this always being their way to do things.

(Yes I know 'right' and 'correct' can be the same thing. They do have some differing definitions I'm working with though.)

As far as I consider it, the problem was a legit problem, but:
1)We're not given all the details about it... at least not yet
2)The AI administering the solution was essentially a lunatic, when it really comes down to it. I mean come on, unless we learn otherwise, it's pretty clear the crazy-ass Leviathans made it themselves. Truly legit.
3)This all happened in the Old World, like the 'pre-universe' in other stories; a whole other realm where moral ranges were absolutes and in extremes. Leviathans were SUPER CHAOS. The emerging Reapers were SUPER ORDER. The fights between organics and the machines they made were SUPER WARS.
After untold Reaper Control Experiment Cycles, our cycle is probably neutered little weaklings compared to the people of Old World. I mean really, even Leviathan tech is so far beyond us (for now).


Exteme solutions for an extreme world. Ok, cool... I guess :S

Doesn't mean it had to continue for billions of years, you *insert mean word that would get censored*.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 14 janvier 2014 - 11:19 .

[SwobyJ]

Hazegurl wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
Any assumptions I had about the Reapers had come from conclusions I'd drawn myself from what the Reapers said.

Anyone remember that game called Mass Effect where you had that intimidating chat with that immortal huge machine called Soveriegn? And no matter how much you told him you'd stop him even you weren't partly convinced? The menace in Soveriegn's voice, it's confidence, weird coming from just a machine doing what it's told that has no interest in war.

How do you know the catalyst wasn't just speaking through Sovereign? 

Or vice versa.

[ElSuperGecko]

SwobyJ wrote...
If you mean 'are they CORRECT', then yes. They were correct based on a certain point of view. The Cycle stymied the issue of organics and synthetics fighting by putting omni-synthetics into the Galaxy Police that imposed Law on everything. It was their solution, and the writers have the Reapers largely accepting of this always being their way to do things.

A certain point of view, yes...

What we need to also bear in mind is that the "problem" the Catalyst described - "inevitable" organic - synthetic conflict - was an issue that the Leviathan face.  A species that dominated (literally) the entire galaxy, ruling over all over life as the apex species.

This problem existed (exists) for the Leviathan, who only wanted to maintain their dominance and guarantee their tribute.  That does not necessarily mean the same problem would exist for us.

The Catalyst was created to solve the Leviathan's problem.  The Reapers were the Catalyst's fatally flawed solution to what it's artificial, uncomprehending logic believed the problem to be.

Mistake after misinterpretation after misunderstanding.... yet it is still right, from a certain point of view.

Unfortunately for the Catalyst, the only point of view which actually matters in this situation is our own.

[Obadiah]

If the Reapers really have uploaded minds from the races they have harvested, then the genetic material may be essential in recreating a structure that functions in a chemically identical manner to the original minds.

Modifié par Obadiah, 14 janvier 2014 - 02:58 .

[ToJKa1]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...
I'm pretty sure BioWare has confirmed him to be actually alive in the high EMS destroy ending.
(http://www.gameranx....-it-s-official/)
Also, as StreetMagic said, why would they make this extra scene just to have him day off-screen? Makes no sense. Not to mention it would be incredibly dickish towards their fanbase.
I don't really understand why some people want him dead so much. About 90% of all possible endings involve him dying, just allow us this one option of survival.

Oh, hadn't seen that. Well fine, survival it is then. And for me it's because the Reapers were built up to be so big of a threath during the three games that beating them, let alone beating them and living to tell about it seemed quite impossible.

[jamesp81]

StreetMagic wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

No the Reapers aren't right. You can tell what kind of a person someone is by what they do.

Look at what Harbinger has done. That should tell you all you need to know. So no, the Reapers aren't right.

They're dead in my playthrough, as it should be.

I think many people who defend the Reapers must be INFPs.

http://www.typelogic.com/infp.html
INFPs have the ability to see good in almost anyone or anything. Even for the most unlovable the INFP is wont to have pity.

Rest you, my enemy,

Slain without fault,

Life smacks but tastelessly

Lacking your salt!

Stuck in a bog whence naught

May catapult me,

Come from the grave, long-sought,


Come and insult me!

--(Steven Vincent Benet, Elegy for an Enemy)

I suspect a study on the MBTI of players and which endings they prefer might be instructive on human psychology.

For myself, my MBTI is wishy washy.  My last three letters can change depending on the day I'm taking the test.  I don't strongly express on any of the traits except the first one.  I always score an 'I' for the first letter, and often at the 90% or higher level (I have, at times, been scored as ISTP, ISFJ, INFJ, and INTP).

I always choose Destroy and consider it the only reasonable choice /  ending.

[jamesp81]

ToJKa1 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...
I'm pretty sure BioWare has confirmed him to be actually alive in the high EMS destroy ending.
(http://www.gameranx....-it-s-official/)
Also, as StreetMagic said, why would they make this extra scene just to have him day off-screen? Makes no sense. Not to mention it would be incredibly dickish towards their fanbase.
I don't really understand why some people want him dead so much. About 90% of all possible endings involve him dying, just allow us this one option of survival.

Oh, hadn't seen that. Well fine, survival it is then. And for me it's because the Reapers were built up to be so big of a threath during the three games that beating them, let alone beating them and living to tell about it seemed quite impossible.

Good stories are often written by doing the impossible.

[AlanC9]

jamesp81 wrote...
I suspect a study on the MBTI of players and which endings they prefer might be instructive on human psychology.

For myself, my MBTI is wishy washy.  My last three letters can change depending on the day I'm taking the test.  I don't strongly express on any of the traits except the first one.  I always score an 'I' for the first letter, and often at the 90% or higher level (I have, at times, been scored as ISTP, ISFJ, INFJ, and INTP).

I always choose Destroy and consider it the only reasonable choice /  ending.

Hmm... I'm off-the-scales NTP; mostly I but sometimes E (different test versions, maybe?). I'm best classed as a Control fan since in the absence of certain Shepard RP conditions it's got the best cost-benefit ratio; my Sheps who do have those beliefs pick the other endings.

Maybe we could make a thread for this?

[jamesp81]

AlanC9 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
I suspect a study on the MBTI of players and which endings they prefer might be instructive on human psychology.

For myself, my MBTI is wishy washy.  My last three letters can change depending on the day I'm taking the test.  I don't strongly express on any of the traits except the first one.  I always score an 'I' for the first letter, and often at the 90% or higher level (I have, at times, been scored as ISTP, ISFJ, INFJ, and INTP).

I always choose Destroy and consider it the only reasonable choice /  ending.

Hmm... I'm off-the-scales NTP; mostly I but sometimes E (different test versions, maybe?). I'm best classed as a Control fan since in the absence of certain Shepard RP conditions it's got the best cost-benefit ratio; my Sheps who do have those beliefs pick the other endings.

Maybe we could make a thread for this?

It would be interesting.  It's too bad we can't do polls anymore

[Comrade Wakizashi]

ToJKa1 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...
I'm pretty sure BioWare has confirmed him to be actually alive in the high EMS destroy ending.
(http://www.gameranx....-it-s-official/)
Also, as StreetMagic said, why would they make this extra scene just to have him day off-screen? Makes no sense. Not to mention it would be incredibly dickish towards their fanbase.
I don't really understand why some people want him dead so much. About 90% of all possible endings involve him dying, just allow us this one option of survival.

Oh, hadn't seen that. Well fine, survival it is then. And for me it's because the Reapers were built up to be so big of a threath during the three games that beating them, let alone beating them and living to tell about it seemed quite impossible.

Well, you sort of did the impossible three times in a row by the end of ME3, so I'd say that gives you the right to beat them 

[ToJKa1]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Well, you sort of did the impossible three times in a row by the end of ME3, so I'd say that gives you the right to beat them 

Well, the first two games never felt impossible to me. The enemy of first was Saren, who was just an augmented turian (and later super husk), you never went directly against Sovereign itself. The suicide mission never felt like a suicide mission either, and as i tend to play in a completionist way, i've never lost more than one crew member during it. Neither even closely compare to the full Reaper fleet with thousands of nearly indestructible Dreadnoughts. Many of their Destoyers get killed sure, but the only Dreadnought kill you see is done by the Leviathan

Modifié par ToJKa1, 14 janvier 2014 - 04:15 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
Any assumptions I had about the Reapers had come from conclusions I'd drawn myself from what the Reapers said.

Anyone remember that game called Mass Effect where you had that intimidating chat with that immortal huge machine called Soveriegn? And no matter how much you told him you'd stop him even you weren't partly convinced? The menace in Soveriegn's voice, it's confidence, weird coming from just a machine doing what it's told that has no interest in war.

How do you know the catalyst wasn't just speaking through Sovereign? 

I think we can be pretty sure he was.

No we can't, because during the writing of Mass Effect 1 the Catalyst did not exist, he was made up at the last minute in Mass Effect 3, if he existed in ME1, he would of done something when the Citadel was being attacked by Sovereign.

[fchopin]

You mean the Intelligence op as Reapers are nothing more than indoctrinated slaves but the answer is NO.
The intelligence is wrong in its thinking.
The intelligence is using human thinking and development and i am afraid that the universe holds plenty more truths than human intelligence.

Nice try but no dice.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Hazegurl wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
Any assumptions I had about the Reapers had come from conclusions I'd drawn myself from what the Reapers said.

Anyone remember that game called Mass Effect where you had that intimidating chat with that immortal huge machine called Soveriegn? And no matter how much you told him you'd stop him even you weren't partly convinced? The menace in Soveriegn's voice, it's confidence, weird coming from just a machine doing what it's told that has no interest in war.

How do you know the catalyst wasn't just speaking through Sovereign? 

The problem with that is that if the Catalyst was aware of the delay in the Cycle how come it didn't do anything to help? Before Priority: Earth, the convenience and simplicity with which the Citadel got moved to Earth implies, retrospectively, that the Catalyst had some hand in the process. If the Catalyst does have control over the station and it was awake during ME1, then how come it didn't do anything?

[Kenshen]

The Quarian's proved the reapers right in this cycle and it probably was only a matter of time before someone else would have done it. The Geth didn't act in the normal way of wanting to wipe out all organics so who knows if that was just an anomaly or if given more time they would fit right in with the synthetic sterotype.

[Grizzly46]

SwobyJ wrote...

The Reapers may have certain facts, records, and pattern recognition.

That doesn't matter. They were created by organics for organics to preserve organic LIFE. They might call red blue for all I care, but fact remains, there seems to be a major bug in the reapers programming.

[Farangbaa]

Grizzly46 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

The Reapers may have certain facts, records, and pattern recognition.

That doesn't matter. They were created by organics for organics to preserve organic LIFE. They might call red blue for all I care, but fact remains, there seems to be a major bug in the reapers programming.

No there isn't.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
Any assumptions I had about the Reapers had come from conclusions I'd drawn myself from what the Reapers said.

Anyone remember that game called Mass Effect where you had that intimidating chat with that immortal huge machine called Soveriegn? And no matter how much you told him you'd stop him even you weren't partly convinced? The menace in Soveriegn's voice, it's confidence, weird coming from just a machine doing what it's told that has no interest in war.

How do you know the catalyst wasn't just speaking through Sovereign? 

The problem with that is that if the Catalyst was aware of the delay in the Cycle how come it didn't do anything to help? Before Priority: Earth, the convenience and simplicity with which the Citadel got moved to Earth implies, retrospectively, that the Catalyst had some hand in the process. If the Catalyst does have control over the station and it was awake during ME1, then how come it didn't do anything?

Exactly. The Catalyst retcons and destroys nearly everything about the Reapers.