435 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

I think the Catalyst sort of answers that concern (at least partially) when he says that you changed the variables by "coming further than any organic has done before". That means that he either needed an organic to "earn the right" to change the course of its work, or, again in the words of the Catalyst, that "the solution doesn't work anymore".
This means that the Catalyst somehow acknowledges that there is a flaw in its system. But because the Catalyst cannot think "outside the box" to find another solution of its own, instead it relinquishes the ultimate decision power over the fate of the galaxy to whoever overrides it system, so to speak. The only one to have ever done that is Shepard.
Just my two cents.

I tend to think that the Catalyst now views the history of the cycles as a metaphor for a geyser based on what has happened the past few cycles. The Protheans destroyed his (in particular Sovereign's) link to the Keepers and he's no longer able to shut down the relay system. The Crucible plans continue to survive despite his best efforts to destroy them. Now the organics have built and docked the Crucible and an organic made it to the elevator platform. Instead of cyclical, he's forced to see history as progressive, and he now sees that eventually he will lose.

So he gives up, and hands the reigns to Shepard because something something mystical something mystic.

[AlanC9]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The problem with that is that if the Catalyst was aware of the delay in the Cycle how come it didn't do anything to help? Before Priority: Earth, the convenience and simplicity with which the Citadel got moved to Earth implies, retrospectively, that the Catalyst had some hand in the process. If the Catalyst does have control over the station and it was awake during ME1, then how come it didn't do anything?

When I make an assumption that causes more problems than it solves, I stop making it.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
Any assumptions I had about the Reapers had come from conclusions I'd drawn myself from what the Reapers said.

Anyone remember that game called Mass Effect where you had that intimidating chat with that immortal huge machine called Soveriegn? And no matter how much you told him you'd stop him even you weren't partly convinced? The menace in Soveriegn's voice, it's confidence, weird coming from just a machine doing what it's told that has no interest in war.

How do you know the catalyst wasn't just speaking through Sovereign? 

I think we can be pretty sure he was.

No we can't, because during the writing of Mass Effect 1 the Catalyst did not exist, he was made up at the last minute in Mass Effect 3, if he existed in ME1, he would of done something when the Citadel was being attacked by Sovereign.

The Catalyst doesn't physically act, he uses his Reapers to act in his stead. Sovereign was a Reaper. As for why he didn't help Sovereign in ME1: why would he? He had an entire army on standby. And he's pretty damn patient. Waiting 50,000 years in between every action you take sort of implies he is patient.

Also: as for the Catalyst not yet existing in the minds of the developers of ME at the time of the first game: that's pretyy probable indeed. It's sort of normal for a trilogy to write it one at a time and in a chronological order. If your point is that the BioWare team hadn't concluded the end of ME3 at the time they were making ME1, I'd say well of course not.

Modifié par Comrade Wakizashi, 14 janvier 2014 - 08:09 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
Any assumptions I had about the Reapers had come from conclusions I'd drawn myself from what the Reapers said.

Anyone remember that game called Mass Effect where you had that intimidating chat with that immortal huge machine called Soveriegn? And no matter how much you told him you'd stop him even you weren't partly convinced? The menace in Soveriegn's voice, it's confidence, weird coming from just a machine doing what it's told that has no interest in war.

How do you know the catalyst wasn't just speaking through Sovereign? 

I think we can be pretty sure he was.

No we can't, because during the writing of Mass Effect 1 the Catalyst did not exist, he was made up at the last minute in Mass Effect 3, if he existed in ME1, he would of done something when the Citadel was being attacked by Sovereign.

The Catalyst doesn't physically act, he uses his Reapers to act in his stead. Sovereign was a Reaper. As for why he didn't help Sovereign in ME1: why would he? He had an entire army on standby. And he's pretty damn patient. Waiting 50,000 years in between every action you take sort of implies he is patient.

Also: as for the Catalyst not yet existing in the minds of the developers of ME at the time of the first game: that's pretyy probable indeed. It's sort of normal for a trilogy to write it one at a time and in a chronological order. If your point is that the BioWare team hadn't concluded the end of ME3 at the time they were making ME1, I'd say well of course not.

Sovereign was already late to start the cycle, he tried to do it much earlier on by sending the signal through the Keepers to open the relay but of course as we know the Protheans modified them to ignore the signal, so Sovereign had to find a pawn (Saren) to help him. So it is safe to say they were in a bit of a rush, so it only seems logical that the Catalyst would help Sovereign, even by opening the arms for it, or something.

What were the Reapers in a rush for? The original Dark Energy plot that was dropped in ME3.

[AlanC9]

Actually, Sovereign had been trying for centuries; who do you think was behind the Rachni War?

But yeah, his Conduit plan seems panicky and desperate. Possibly because the emergence of humans was destabilizing existing power relationships? Up until that point the Citadel government had kept organic military power nicely stagnant, which suited the Reapers just fine.

If he was still playing a long game, Benezia would have let him pile up agents on the Citadel for centuries.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 janvier 2014 - 08:37 .

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

AlanC9 wrote...

Actually, Sovereign had been trying for centuries; who do you think was behind the Rachni War?

But yeah, his Conduit plan seems panicky and desperate. Possibly because the emergence of humans was destabilizing existing power relationships? Up until that point the Citadel government had kept organic military power nicely stagnant, which suited the Reapers just fine.

If he was still playing a long game, Benezia would have let him pile up agents on the Citadel for centuries.

The original reason Sovereign was in such a rush was because the orignal reveal with the Reapers was that they were trying to stop Dark Energy from "consuming" the galaxy, basically it's like a galactic size global warming, the more technology organics developed and used, the more dark energy was created, the Reapers' goal was to store life in Reaper form to prevent the spread of dark energy, and every minute wasted meant more dark energy, hence the rush.

Of course that all went out the window when Space-Hitler appeared.

[CronoDragoon]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
The original reason Sovereign was in such a rush was because the orignal reveal with the Reapers was that they were trying to stop Dark Energy from "consuming" the galaxy, basically it's like a galactic size global warming, the more technology organics developed and used, the more dark energy was created, the Reapers' goal was to store life in Reaper form to prevent the spread of dark energy, and every minute wasted meant more dark energy, hence the rush.

Of course that all went out the window when Space-Hitler appeared.

That all went out the window long before Space-Hitler. Dark energy was never "the" ending planned so you can't really use it as "the" reason Sovereign was hurrying.

[R4ZOR GHO5T]

CronoDragoon wrote...

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...
The original reason Sovereign was in such a rush was because the orignal reveal with the Reapers was that they were trying to stop Dark Energy from "consuming" the galaxy, basically it's like a galactic size global warming, the more technology organics developed and used, the more dark energy was created, the Reapers' goal was to store life in Reaper form to prevent the spread of dark energy, and every minute wasted meant more dark energy, hence the rush.

Of course that all went out the window when Space-Hitler appeared.

That all went out the window long before Space-Hitler. Dark energy was never "the" ending planned so you can't really use it as "the" reason Sovereign was hurrying.

O RLY?

http://www.pcgamer.c...l-ending-ideas/

[CronoDragoon]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

O RLY?

http://www.pcgamer.c...l-ending-ideas/

Really.

www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/8/20/3256678/original-mass-effect-writer-talks-about-the-possible-endings-for-mass

It was never planned for implementation and never got past the idea stage. It was "one of several" possible endings they were tossing around.

Even as an idea it's worse than the organic/synthetic ending though, touting human genetic diversity when it's not all that impressive, even compared to other life forms on Earth.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 14 janvier 2014 - 09:46 .

[von uber]

*Looks at thread title*

No.

[Wayning_Star]

congokong wrote...

Most fans hate the Catalyst (maybe because of its form) but it actually
brought an insight into the reapers' motivations besides the "you cannot
comprehend" arrogance of Sovereign, Harbinger, and the reaper on
Rannoch.

It's actually not that hard to comprehend. The debate is
the ethics of this "ends justify the means" rationale for the harvests.
The logic is that the catalyst has studied countless civilizations and
the dangers of technological progression. Every single civilization
inevitably ended with synthetics being created, surpassing organics, and
eventually destroying them. Leviathan originally intervened to destroy
these synthetics before they could destroy other organic societies but
later created the catalyst as a mediator. The catalyst realized that
Leviathan creating it proved that Leviathan was making the same errors
the lesser species were. Therefore the reapers were made to destroy
Leviathan and any advanced organics/synthetics before synthetics could
dominate all life in the galaxy. While this gives organics free reign to
live it also put them on a timer that was accelerated by the invention
of mass relays (done to make harvesting easier as they'd technologically
progress along a linear path as well as a means for the reapers to
travel).

A theme throughout the series is the dangers of
technology. The idea is that without Leviathan or the reapers eventually
all organics will be enslaved or killed by synthetics. So are the
reapers right?

I'm thinking its possible that those machines didn't/couldn't 'justify' the means to the ends. It's all just another program to them.

just say'n

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The problem with that is that if the Catalyst was aware of the delay in the Cycle how come it didn't do anything to help? Before Priority: Earth, the convenience and simplicity with which the Citadel got moved to Earth implies, retrospectively, that the Catalyst had some hand in the process. If the Catalyst does have control over the station and it was awake during ME1, then how come it didn't do anything?

When I make an assumption that causes more problems than it solves, I stop making it.

Unfortunately, it is too late for me.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

R4ZOR GHO5T wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Actually, Sovereign had been trying for centuries; who do you think was behind the Rachni War?

But yeah, his Conduit plan seems panicky and desperate. Possibly because the emergence of humans was destabilizing existing power relationships? Up until that point the Citadel government had kept organic military power nicely stagnant, which suited the Reapers just fine.

If he was still playing a long game, Benezia would have let him pile up agents on the Citadel for centuries.

The original reason Sovereign was in such a rush was because the orignal reveal with the Reapers was that they were trying to stop Dark Energy from "consuming" the galaxy, basically it's like a galactic size global warming, the more technology organics developed and used, the more dark energy was created, the Reapers' goal was to store life in Reaper form to prevent the spread of dark energy, and every minute wasted meant more dark energy, hence the rush.

Of course that all went out the window when Space-Hitler appeared.

I don't see that option as better than  the explanation in ME3. In fact the dark energy option would have a massive gap in that meaning that it wouldn't explain the genocidal nature of the Reapers. If they just wanted to prevent a galactical apocalypse, why not simply notify the population of the galaxy and try to cooperate with them? Why waste all your time and resources on total war? Doesn't make sense.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

I don't see that option as better than  the explanation in ME3. In fact the dark energy option would have a massive gap in that meaning that it wouldn't explain the genocidal nature of the Reapers. If they just wanted to prevent a galactical apocalypse, why not simply notify the population of the galaxy and try to cooperate with them? Why waste all your time and resources on total war? Doesn't make sense.

The 3 games didn't really build up the Reapers up to some specific, coherent goal. In ME1 they were incomprehensible machines with a disdain for Organic life and nothing existed which discounted from that notion, in ME2 they use specific Organics races to build themselves, in ME3 one of them says they impose order onto the chaos (since the cycles all seem to play out the same, why would the Catalyst call it chaos? To sound cool?), and in the ending they're here to save Organics from from Synthetics. In this sense the Dark Energy plot suffers from the same problems as the current endings, as most likely any ending concept would suffer from; mainly that in each game the Reapers have seemingly different natures everytime Shepard meets one.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

I don't see that option as better than  the explanation in ME3. In fact the dark energy option would have a massive gap in that meaning that it wouldn't explain the genocidal nature of the Reapers. If they just wanted to prevent a galactical apocalypse, why not simply notify the population of the galaxy and try to cooperate with them? Why waste all your time and resources on total war? Doesn't make sense.

The 3 games didn't really build up the Reapers up to some specific, coherent goal. In ME1 they were incomprehensible machines with a disdain for Organic life and nothing existed which discounted from that notion, in ME2 they use specific Organics races to build themselves, in ME3 one of them says they impose order onto the chaos (since the cycles all seem to play out the same, why would the Catalyst call it chaos? To sound cool?), and in the ending they're here to save Organics from from Synthetics. In this sense the Dark Energy plot suffers from the same problems as the current endings, as most likely any ending concept would suffer from; mainly that in each game the Reapers have seemingly different natures everytime Shepard meets one.

I think that change sort of makes sense. During the course of the games you frankly get to know that what you believed to know about the Reapers was quite frankly at least partially wrong. It's normal for knowledge like that to build up over time, and mistakes in earlier concepts to be made over the course of a trilogy. The fact that the Reapers seem to "change character" doesn't mean that they do. Shepard just constantly gets to know them better, and has to correct certain falese previous assumptions in the process.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

I think that change sort of makes sense. During the course of the games you frankly get to know that what you believed to know about the Reapers was quite frankly at least partially wrong. It's normal for knowledge like that to build up over time, and mistakes in earlier concepts to be made over the course of a trilogy. The fact that the Reapers seem to "change character" doesn't mean that they do. Shepard just constantly gets to know them better, and has to correct certain falese previous assumptions in the process.

That seems reasonable enough. But in my view the trilogy always did this to contradictory extremes.

[Farangbaa]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

I don't see that option as better than  the explanation in ME3. In fact the dark energy option would have a massive gap in that meaning that it wouldn't explain the genocidal nature of the Reapers. If they just wanted to prevent a galactical apocalypse, why not simply notify the population of the galaxy and try to cooperate with them? Why waste all your time and resources on total war? Doesn't make sense.

The 3 games didn't really build up the Reapers up to some specific, coherent goal. In ME1 they were incomprehensible machines with a disdain for Organic life and nothing existed which discounted from that notion, in ME2 they use specific Organics races to build themselves, in ME3 one of them says they impose order onto the chaos (since the cycles all seem to play out the same, why would the Catalyst call it chaos? To sound cool?), and in the ending they're here to save Organics from from Synthetics. In this sense the Dark Energy plot suffers from the same problems as the current endings, as most likely any ending concept would suffer from; mainly that in each game the Reapers have seemingly different natures everytime Shepard meets one.

You really don't understand the point of what the Reapers are doing. They are 'responsible' for the cycles (parentheses because.. you know, the Catalyst), and they prevent the chaos that would follow from Organics creating Synthetics that will destroy Organics.

Whether that (the inevitable destuction of organics by synthetics) actually is the case in real life is irrelevant. In the Mass Effect universe it is. The Leviathan (the proper plural form, Leviathians sounds stupid) already noticed this.

And this is also why destroy is a defeat for organics, in the long run. Control and synthesis are the only win-scenarios.

[Rusty Sandusky]

Short Answer: No.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Psychevore wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The 3 games didn't really build up the Reapers up to some specific, coherent goal. In ME1 they were incomprehensible machines with a disdain for Organic life and nothing existed which discounted from that notion, in ME2 they use specific Organics races to build themselves, in ME3 one of them says they impose order onto the chaos (since the cycles all seem to play out the same, why would the Catalyst call it chaos? To sound cool?), and in the ending they're here to save Organics from from Synthetics. In this sense the Dark Energy plot suffers from the same problems as the current endings, as most likely any ending concept would suffer from; mainly that in each game the Reapers have seemingly different natures everytime Shepard meets one.

You really don't understand the point of what the Reapers are doing. They are 'responsible' for the cycles (parentheses because.. you know, the Catalyst), and they prevent the chaos that would follow from Organics creating Synthetics that will destroy Organics.

Whether that (the inevitable destuction of organics by synthetics) actually is the case in real life is irrelevant. In the Mass Effect universe it is. The Leviathan (the proper plural form, Leviathians sounds stupid) already noticed this.

And this is also why destroy is a defeat for organics, in the long run. Control and synthesis are the only win-scenarios.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at when you say in real life, I don't think I ever talked about events outside of the game world. Unless, you're talking to me just chalking everything up as bad writing that resulted from not planning this stuff out ahead of time.

I know what the Catalyst says the Reapers do in ME3. What I meant here is the Reapers past actions seem contradictory to this goal. In ME1, Sovereign does express a definate distain for Organic life, which in retrospect is weird if the Catalyst programs or controls the Reapers somehow (also that whole Catalyst not helping out bit). In ME2, Harbinger bashes the other races for not being worthy of ascension and dropping any pretence of 'order' and 'chaos' or some overarching plan. The Rannoch Reaper is excessively vague, as imposing order on chaos could almost mean anything (except maybe, ironically, as my bolded statement muses on, anything but the actual cycles. Again, it's weird to call an apparently predictable event 'chaos', I expect the writers put this down to somehow superficially tie it down to what Sovereign said back in ME1. This is mostly a pointless semantics arguement, don't mind it too much).

[Swan Killer]

The ultimate question is why the Catalyst is experimenting on the galaxy? Why harverst civilizations for millions of years and not just have the Reaper arrmada show up when the "vanguard" Reaper thinks that the synthetics are way too advanced and pose a danger to organics and just simply wipe them out?

[NeonFlux117]

tivesz wrote...

The ultimate question is why the Catalyst is experimenting on the galaxy? Why harverst civilizations for millions of years and not just have the Reaper arrmada show up when the "vanguard" Reaper thinks that the synthetics are way too advanced and pose a danger to organics and just simply wipe them out?

Rule of Cool. That's why. 

ROC supersedes anything and everything. 

[Farangbaa]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The 3 games didn't really build up the Reapers up to some specific, coherent goal. In ME1 they were incomprehensible machines with a disdain for Organic life and nothing existed which discounted from that notion, in ME2 they use specific Organics races to build themselves, in ME3 one of them says they impose order onto the chaos (since the cycles all seem to play out the same, why would the Catalyst call it chaos? To sound cool?), and in the ending they're here to save Organics from from Synthetics. In this sense the Dark Energy plot suffers from the same problems as the current endings, as most likely any ending concept would suffer from; mainly that in each game the Reapers have seemingly different natures everytime Shepard meets one.

You really don't understand the point of what the Reapers are doing. They are 'responsible' for the cycles (parentheses because.. you know, the Catalyst), and they prevent the chaos that would follow from Organics creating Synthetics that will destroy Organics.

Whether that (the inevitable destuction of organics by synthetics) actually is the case in real life is irrelevant. In the Mass Effect universe it is. The Leviathan (the proper plural form, Leviathians sounds stupid) already noticed this.

And this is also why destroy is a defeat for organics, in the long run. Control and synthesis are the only win-scenarios.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at when you say in real life, I don't think I ever talked about events outside of the game world. Unless, you're talking to me just chalking everything up as bad writing that resulted from not planning this stuff out ahead of time.

I know what the Catalyst says the Reapers do in ME3. What I meant here is the Reapers past actions seem contradictory to this goal. In ME1, Sovereign does express a definate distain for Organic life, which in retrospect is weird if the Catalyst programs or controls the Reapers somehow (also that whole Catalyst not helping out bit). In ME2, Harbinger bashes the other races for not being worthy of ascension and dropping any pretence of 'order' and 'chaos' or some overarching plan. The Rannoch Reaper is excessively vague, as imposing order on chaos could almost mean anything (except maybe, ironically, as my bolded statement muses on, anything but the actual cycles. Again, it's weird to call an apparently predictable event 'chaos', I expect the writers put this down to somehow superficially tie it down to what Sovereign said back in ME1. This is mostly a pointless semantics arguement, don't mind it too much).

They made the cycle to impose order onto the chaos. 

And, about the Catalyst in reference to the Reapers; I think you gotta see it like this:

The Catalyst is the watchmaker, the Reapers are the watches. The watches do their intended task perfectly well without intervention or a constant input by the watchmaker. The watchmaker just makes them, and gives them their purpose/function. The watches have no idea the watchmaker even exists, and have no need to. 

And I honestly doubt the Catalyst has any control over the Reapers whatsoever.

[Helios969]

I think there is an inherent flaw in the way they were written, nevermind the contradiction of the Geth-Quarian conflict. Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics intellectually but cannot understand them emotionally...synthetics decide to exterminate organics.

Just as likely: Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics...synthetics find a nice quite part of the galaxy to continue their evolutionary progression because the complexity of organic emotions are incomprehensible - too many variables and impossible to quantify.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Psychevore wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

I don't see that option as better than  the explanation in ME3. In fact the dark energy option would have a massive gap in that meaning that it wouldn't explain the genocidal nature of the Reapers. If they just wanted to prevent a galactical apocalypse, why not simply notify the population of the galaxy and try to cooperate with them? Why waste all your time and resources on total war? Doesn't make sense.

The 3 games didn't really build up the Reapers up to some specific, coherent goal. In ME1 they were incomprehensible machines with a disdain for Organic life and nothing existed which discounted from that notion, in ME2 they use specific Organics races to build themselves, in ME3 one of them says they impose order onto the chaos (since the cycles all seem to play out the same, why would the Catalyst call it chaos? To sound cool?), and in the ending they're here to save Organics from from Synthetics. In this sense the Dark Energy plot suffers from the same problems as the current endings, as most likely any ending concept would suffer from; mainly that in each game the Reapers have seemingly different natures everytime Shepard meets one.

You really don't understand the point of what the Reapers are doing. They are 'responsible' for the cycles (parentheses because.. you know, the Catalyst), and they prevent the chaos that would follow from Organics creating Synthetics that will destroy Organics.

Whether that (the inevitable destuction of organics by synthetics) actually is the case in real life is irrelevant. In the Mass Effect universe it is. The Leviathan (the proper plural form, Leviathians sounds stupid) already noticed this.

And this is also why destroy is a defeat for organics, in the long run. Control and synthesis are the only win-scenarios.

I disagree. The Catalyst has seen no actual evidence of synthetics destroying all organic life. The Leviathan were destroyed by the Reapers as a "precaution" to "save" them from extinction. There is no way of knowing wether or not they would have been annihilated by synthetics if the Reapers hadn't intervened.

The only thing we can say about the Catalyst's prediction is that we simply don't know if he is right. Perhaps the Geth would through some weird evolution change completely and decide they had to kill all organic life in the galaxy. Highly unlikely, but not impossible. However, it goes to far to say that the Catalyst is unmistakenbly right. We simply cannot know that.
That's why the end decision is a gamble in every single option you take, no matter what you choose. Personally, I prefer the gamble of Destroy, since it ensures the protection of organic life at least now.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Helios969 wrote...

I think there is an inherent flaw in the way they were written, nevermind the contradiction of the Geth-Quarian conflict. Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics intellectually but cannot understand them emotionally...synthetics decide to exterminate organics.

Just as likely: Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics...synthetics find a nice quite part of the galaxy to continue their evolutionary progression because the complexity of organic emotions are incomprehensible - too many variables and impossible to quantify.

That's exactly a big portion of the flaw in the Catalyst's logic. I don't think it was a mistake by the developers though It's just the way the Catalyst reasons. And that reasoning is flawed. The geth are an example of a synthetic species that just seek to isolate themselves and keep away from organic civilization. The fact that geth keep showing up as enemies is mostly the result of active Reaper meddling and Quarian stupidity.