435 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Psychevore wrote...

They made the cycle to impose order onto the chaos.

I got that, I'm just asking, why call it chaos? From the Reapers/Catalyst's perspective the post-singularity, seemingly, doesn't exhibit any chaotic behavior, because it always falls within very predictable, narrow parameters.

And, about the Catalyst in reference to the Reapers; I think you gotta see it like this:

The Catalyst is the watchmaker, the Reapers are the watches. The watches do their intended task perfectly well without intervention or a constant input by the watchmaker. The watchmaker just makes them, and gives them their purpose/function. The watches have no idea the watchmaker even exists, and have no need to. 

And I honestly doubt the Catalyst has any control over the Reapers whatsoever.

The problem I have with this is that the Catalyst literally says it controls the Reapers, plus it often refers to itself and the Reapers as a collective. Of course, like most of the Catalyst conversation, what the Catalyst means by control is left unqualified (is he remote controlling them? indoctrinating them? programming them? directing them? placing them under duress?).

[Farangbaa]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

I don't see that option as better than  the explanation in ME3. In fact the dark energy option would have a massive gap in that meaning that it wouldn't explain the genocidal nature of the Reapers. If they just wanted to prevent a galactical apocalypse, why not simply notify the population of the galaxy and try to cooperate with them? Why waste all your time and resources on total war? Doesn't make sense.

The 3 games didn't really build up the Reapers up to some specific, coherent goal. In ME1 they were incomprehensible machines with a disdain for Organic life and nothing existed which discounted from that notion, in ME2 they use specific Organics races to build themselves, in ME3 one of them says they impose order onto the chaos (since the cycles all seem to play out the same, why would the Catalyst call it chaos? To sound cool?), and in the ending they're here to save Organics from from Synthetics. In this sense the Dark Energy plot suffers from the same problems as the current endings, as most likely any ending concept would suffer from; mainly that in each game the Reapers have seemingly different natures everytime Shepard meets one.

You really don't understand the point of what the Reapers are doing. They are 'responsible' for the cycles (parentheses because.. you know, the Catalyst), and they prevent the chaos that would follow from Organics creating Synthetics that will destroy Organics.

Whether that (the inevitable destuction of organics by synthetics) actually is the case in real life is irrelevant. In the Mass Effect universe it is. The Leviathan (the proper plural form, Leviathians sounds stupid) already noticed this.

And this is also why destroy is a defeat for organics, in the long run. Control and synthesis are the only win-scenarios.

I disagree. The Catalyst has seen no actual evidence of synthetics destroying all organic life. The Leviathan were destroyed by the Reapers as a "precaution" to "save" them from extinction. There is no way of knowing wether or not they would have been annihilated by synthetics if the Reapers hadn't intervened.

The only thing we can say about the Catalyst's prediction is that we simply don't know if he is right. Perhaps the Geth would through some weird evolution change completely and decide they had to kill all organic life in the galaxy. Highly unlikely, but not impossible. However, it goes to far to say that the Catalyst is unmistakenbly right. We simply cannot know that.
That's why the end decision is a gamble in every single option you take, no matter what you choose. Personally, I prefer the gamble of Destroy, since it ensures the protection of organic life at least now.

The Catalyst has seen it on a smaller scale countless times (and by smaller scale I mean: not galaxy wide destruction). In fact, the fact that he saw it time and time again made him start the cycle! And the Catalyst was made by the Leviathan because it noticed this pattern as well.

You act as if the Geth are the first synthetics created by organics. And you also act as if a peace that has lasted for a few weeks (Geth-Guarian) will last forever, and is thus a retort against the Catalyst's view of the galaxy. Both are horrendously wrong. And then you act as if other organic races (in MEU still primitive) can't design a completely new Synthetic lifeform themselves... as if the danger comes from just the Geth.

[Helios969]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think there is an inherent flaw in the way they were written, nevermind the contradiction of the Geth-Quarian conflict. Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics intellectually but cannot understand them emotionally...synthetics decide to exterminate organics.

Just as likely: Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics...synthetics find a nice quite part of the galaxy to continue their evolutionary progression because the complexity of organic emotions are incomprehensible - too many variables and impossible to quantify.

That's exactly a big portion of the flaw in the Catalyst's logic. I don't think it was a mistake by the developers though It's just the way the Catalyst reasons. And that reasoning is flawed. The geth are an example of a synthetic species that just seek to isolate themselves and keep away from organic civilization. The fact that geth keep showing up as enemies is mostly the result of active Reaper meddling and Quarian stupidity.

Also, why would hyperadvanced machines care if we went extinct, e.g. our tech/way of life wasn't preserved?  Really, why does it matter?  Subservience versus self-determination?

[Farangbaa]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

They made the cycle to impose order onto the chaos.

I got that, I'm just asking, why call it chaos? From the Reapers/Catalyst's perspective the post-singularity, seemingly, doesn't exhibit any chaotic behavior, because it always falls within very predictable, narrow parameters.

Because it's creator were/are organics, and it's task is to preserve organic life. Destruction of that life is chaotic from that standpoint.

And, about the Catalyst in reference to the Reapers; I think you gotta see it like this:

The Catalyst is the watchmaker, the Reapers are the watches. The watches do their intended task perfectly well without intervention or a constant input by the watchmaker. The watchmaker just makes them, and gives them their purpose/function. The watches have no idea the watchmaker even exists, and have no need to. 

And I honestly doubt the Catalyst has any control over the Reapers whatsoever.

The problem I have with this is that the Catalyst literally says it controls the Reapers, plus it often refers to itself and the Reapers as a collective. Of course, like most of the Catalyst conversation, what the Catalyst means by control is left unqualified (is he remote controlling them? indoctrinating them? programming them? directing them? placing them under duress?).

I can't answer all those questions 

But I think it speaks in 'we' because it sees the Reapers as an extension of itself. (Or it might even be pluralis majestatis )

Modifié par Psychevore, 15 janvier 2014 - 10:20 .

[Farangbaa]

Helios969 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think there is an inherent flaw in the way they were written, nevermind the contradiction of the Geth-Quarian conflict. Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics intellectually but cannot understand them emotionally...synthetics decide to exterminate organics.

Just as likely: Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics...synthetics find a nice quite part of the galaxy to continue their evolutionary progression because the complexity of organic emotions are incomprehensible - too many variables and impossible to quantify.

That's exactly a big portion of the flaw in the Catalyst's logic. I don't think it was a mistake by the developers though It's just the way the Catalyst reasons. And that reasoning is flawed. The geth are an example of a synthetic species that just seek to isolate themselves and keep away from organic civilization. The fact that geth keep showing up as enemies is mostly the result of active Reaper meddling and Quarian stupidity.

Also, why would hyperadvanced machines care if we went extinct, e.g. our tech/way of life wasn't preserved?  Really, why does it matter?  Subservience versus self-determination?

Have you been paying attention during the game?

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Helios969 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think there is an inherent flaw in the way they were written, nevermind the contradiction of the Geth-Quarian conflict. Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics intellectually but cannot understand them emotionally...synthetics decide to exterminate organics.

Just as likely: Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics...synthetics find a nice quite part of the galaxy to continue their evolutionary progression because the complexity of organic emotions are incomprehensible - too many variables and impossible to quantify.

That's exactly a big portion of the flaw in the Catalyst's logic. I don't think it was a mistake by the developers though It's just the way the Catalyst reasons. And that reasoning is flawed. The geth are an example of a synthetic species that just seek to isolate themselves and keep away from organic civilization. The fact that geth keep showing up as enemies is mostly the result of active Reaper meddling and Quarian stupidity.

Also, why would hyperadvanced machines care if we went extinct, e.g. our tech/way of life wasn't preserved?  Really, why does it matter?  Subservience versus self-determination?

They have been programmed to care. They just don't care about the way in which they do it. But they care about preserving genetics because that's in their programmed way of thinking.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Psychevore wrote...

The Catalyst has seen it on a smaller scale countless times (and by smaller scale I mean: not galaxy wide destruction). In fact, the fact that he saw it time and time again made him start the cycle! And the Catalyst was made by the Leviathan because it noticed this pattern as well.

You act as if the Geth are the first synthetics created by organics. And you also act as if a peace that has lasted for a few weeks (Geth-Guarian) will last forever, and is thus a retort against the Catalyst's view of the galaxy. Both are horrendously wrong. And then you act as if other organic races (in MEU still primitive) can't design a completely new Synthetic lifeform themselves... as if the danger comes from just the Geth.

Which smaller scale? Sure, the Leviathan had destructive wars against synthetics. But they weren't being wiped out.
And after the Leviathan, he could never have seen it happen, because he started the entire harvesting cycle with the genocide against the Leviathan. He just made this reasoning of the inevitibility of synthetics destroying organics himself. It is based on excessive logical reasoning within its own rational framework, but it has never been based on outside material evidence. Which makes sense, an AI doesn't need outside evidence to reach a "logical" conclusion.

Does it matter if the geth are not te first synthetics created by organics? There has never been an synthetic attempt at wiping out organic life before the geth either. Plus, I'm not referring to the Quarian-Geth peace treaty. I'm referring to the fact that the geth NEVER have attempted to wipe out organic life. The only dangerous geth were those that were hacked and reprogrammed by Sovereign, the Collectors and the other Reapers. The geth themselves have never been hostile to organic life as such, they were merely fanatically protective of their own territories because they believed organics wanted to destroy them (which is a logical fear, considering the massacre the Quarians tried to carry out among them).

My point is that there is no evidence whatsoever to prove the Catalyst's point. And I'm very sorry, but I don't trust an AI that is responsible for a multi-billion count genocide over the course of millions of years just on its word. I need evidence before I trust that f***er. The fact that you seem to do is... suspicious.

Face it, bro. You're indoctrinated:P

Modifié par Comrade Wakizashi, 15 janvier 2014 - 10:38 .

[Farangbaa]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

The Catalyst has seen it on a smaller scale countless times (and by smaller scale I mean: not galaxy wide destruction). In fact, the fact that he saw it time and time again made him start the cycle! And the Catalyst was made by the Leviathan because it noticed this pattern as well.

You act as if the Geth are the first synthetics created by organics. And you also act as if a peace that has lasted for a few weeks (Geth-Guarian) will last forever, and is thus a retort against the Catalyst's view of the galaxy. Both are horrendously wrong. And then you act as if other organic races (in MEU still primitive) can't design a completely new Synthetic lifeform themselves... as if the danger comes from just the Geth.

Which smaller scale? Sure, the Leviathan had destructive wars against synthetics. But they weren't being wiped out.
And after the Leviathan, he could never have seen it happen, because he started the entire harvesting cycle with the genocide against the Leviathan. He just made this reasoning of the inevitibility of synthetics destroying organics himself. It is based on excessive logical reasoning within its own rational framework, but it has never been based on outside material evidence. Which makes sense, an AI doesn't need outside evidence to reach a "logical" conclusion.

The Leviathan's thralls had war with synthetics, and these thralls were subsequently destroyed. The Leviathan itself didn't, as far as I am aware.

Does it matter if the geth are not te first synthetics created by organics? There has never been an synthetic attempt at wiping out organic life before the geth either. Plus, I'm not referring to the Quarian-Geth peace treaty. I'm referring to the fact that the geth NEVER have attempted to wipe out organic life. The only dangerous geth were those that were hacked and reprogrammed by Sovereign, the Collectors and the other Reapers. The geth themselves have never been hostile to organic life as such, they were merely fanatically protective of their own territories because they believed organics wanted to destroy them (which is a logical fear, considering the massacre the Quarians tried to carry out among them).

Yes it matters.

And they didn't attempt to wipe out their creators because they were unsure of the consequences of wiping them out. They can conclude there are no consequences. But if they don't, it's irrelevant. The next created race of synthetics could be less carefull about the consequences of their actions, and just destroy their creators.

My point is that there is no evidence whatsoever to prove the Catalyst's point. And I'm very sorry, but I don't trust an AI that is responsible for a multi-billion count genocide over the course of millions of years just on its word. I need evidence before I trust that f***er. The fact that you seem to do is... suspicious.

The Leviathan.

Face it, bro. You're indoctrinated:P 

Nah.

Modifié par Psychevore, 15 janvier 2014 - 10:59 .

[Comrade Wakizashi]

The Leviathan aren't evidence of the Catalyst's logic. They were wiped out precisely because of the Catalyst's logic. Unless you're saying the Reapers are a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is kind of true, it doesn't prove anything.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

 Let me rephrase it this way:

Modifié par Comrade Wakizashi, 15 janvier 2014 - 11:39 .

[Farangbaa]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

The Leviathan aren't evidence of the Catalyst's logic. They were wiped out precisely because of the Catalyst's logic. Unless you're saying the Reapers are a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is kind of true, it doesn't prove anything.

Dude.

The Leviathan noticed the pattern (organics creating synthetics which consequently wiped out the organics), and thus they created the Catalyst to solve this problem. If the pattern weren't there the Catalyst would not exist at all.

You seem to think that the Leviathan were the ones that were being threatened by synthetics, and they created the Catalyst to solve that problem. But that is not the case. Their thralls were threatened. They themselves never were until the catalyst 'understood' that they were part of the problem themselves. (whatever the hell that may mean..)

Modifié par Psychevore, 15 janvier 2014 - 12:52 .

[Clips7]

StreetMagic wrote...

The only synthetics enslaving anybody are the Reapers themselves. How can they solve a problem when they are the only example of that problem?

I don't know if this was supposed to be irony. Or just retardery on the part of the writers. But whatever.

Who cares if other synthetics rose up, such as the Geth. They would get crushed by the kind of forces the galaxy can produce. What the galaxy has trouble with is synthetics who have millions of years of a developmental head start, like the Reapers do. That's the real thing to worry about. When someone goes unchallenged for so long and creates all the rules. The threat isn't synthetics. It's anyone controlling the course of evolution like that. Even if organics, such as humans or turians, were allowed to dominate everyone else for millions of years, then it wouldn't be a good thing for the galaxy either. If there's a chance to destroy anything like that, I'd take it.

I didn't go through all of the pages in this thread, but i completely agree with this....

[NeonFlux117]

The Catalyst was the first "Reaper". It reaped up the Leviathan and made harbinger.

Simple really. The catalyst is a homicidal, genocidal killing machine with a penchant for grandiose delusions of self importance. It's mandate is broken. And it's Reaper solution must end. Permanently.

Shoot the tube.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

Psychevore wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

The Leviathan aren't evidence of the Catalyst's logic. They were wiped out precisely because of the Catalyst's logic. Unless you're saying the Reapers are a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is kind of true, it doesn't prove anything.

Dude.

The Leviathan noticed the pattern (organics creating synthetics which consequently wiped out the organics), and thus they created the Catalyst to solve this problem. If the pattern weren't there the Catalyst would not exist at all.

You seem to think that the Leviathan were the ones that were being threatened by synthetics, and they created the Catalyst to solve that problem. But that is not the case. Their thralls were threatened. They themselves never were until the catalyst 'understood' that they were part of the problem themselves. (whatever the hell that may mean..)

I know that the Leviathan weren't threatened themselves. That only proves once again that the Catalyst's logic is flawed into its very core. The Catalyst has created a problem in its mind that does not exist in real life. Let me rephrase that: a problem for which we have no reason to assume it exists in real life.
And last time I checked: when you make a theory, it's up to you to prove that theory to be true before it can be accepted. It's not up to the others to disprove your theory first.

And even if the Catalyst were right: please tell me how destroying life to preserve life is any way, shape or form a logical or moral act?

[Comrade Wakizashi]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The Catalyst was the first "Reaper". It reaped up the Leviathan and made harbinger.

Simple really. The catalyst is a homicidal, genocidal killing machine with a penchant for grandiose delusions of self importance. It's mandate is broken. And it's Reaper solution must end. Permanently.

Shoot the tube.

There's no better way to say it, really.

[Farangbaa]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

The Leviathan aren't evidence of the Catalyst's logic. They were wiped out precisely because of the Catalyst's logic. Unless you're saying the Reapers are a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is kind of true, it doesn't prove anything.

Dude.

The Leviathan noticed the pattern (organics creating synthetics which consequently wiped out the organics), and thus they created the Catalyst to solve this problem. If the pattern weren't there the Catalyst would not exist at all.

You seem to think that the Leviathan were the ones that were being threatened by synthetics, and they created the Catalyst to solve that problem. But that is not the case. Their thralls were threatened. They themselves never were until the catalyst 'understood' that they were part of the problem themselves. (whatever the hell that may mean..)

I know that the Leviathan weren't threatened themselves. That only proves once again that the Catalyst's logic is flawed into its very core. The Catalyst has created a problem in its mind that does not exist in real life. Let me rephrase that: a problem for which we have no reason to assume it exists in real life.
And last time I checked: when you make a theory, it's up to you to prove that theory to be true before it can be accepted. It's not up to the others to disprove your theory first.

The Catalyst never created a problem. The Leviathan saw the problem, the Catalyst was created to solve it. The Catalyst only wants to solve the problem the Leviathan tasked it with to solve. And albeit being 'victims' of the Catalyst, even the Leviathan themselves agree that it does. It does not act on it's own, it only does what its supposed to do.

And even if the Catalyst were right: please tell me how destroying life to preserve life is any way, shape or form a logical or moral act?

Organic life isn't destroyed, it's stored in Reaper form. Opposed to being eradicated by the synthetics they create, that is the better option.

Morality really doesn't matter when that is the problem.

[AlanC9]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

The Catalyst was the first "Reaper". It reaped up the Leviathan and made harbinger.

Simple really. The catalyst is a homicidal, genocidal killing machine with a penchant for grandiose delusions of self importance. It's mandate is broken. And it's Reaper solution must end. Permanently.

Shoot the tube.

The conclusion doesn't follow, but the argument is sound up to that point.

[Helios969]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think there is an inherent flaw in the way they were written, nevermind the contradiction of the Geth-Quarian conflict. Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics intellectually but cannot understand them emotionally...synthetics decide to exterminate organics.

Just as likely: Organics create synthetics...synthetics surpass organics...synthetics find a nice quite part of the galaxy to continue their evolutionary progression because the complexity of organic emotions are incomprehensible - too many variables and impossible to quantify.

That's exactly a big portion of the flaw in the Catalyst's logic. I don't think it was a mistake by the developers though It's just the way the Catalyst reasons. And that reasoning is flawed. The geth are an example of a synthetic species that just seek to isolate themselves and keep away from organic civilization. The fact that geth keep showing up as enemies is mostly the result of active Reaper meddling and Quarian stupidity.

Also, why would hyperadvanced machines care if we went extinct, e.g. our tech/way of life wasn't preserved?  Really, why does it matter?  Subservience versus self-determination?

They have been programmed to care. They just don't care about the way in which they do it. But they care about preserving genetics because that's in their programmed way of thinking.

So for all their supposed intelligence it comes down to Legion's math error.  Leviathan's mandate: "preservation of life" turns into preservation of the collective knowledge of each life form designated to be harvested.  Which takes me back to my original point that the flaw is in the way the Reapers were written.  I just can't buy into these hyper-intelligent machines with countless harvest cycles stretching back millions of years unable to recognize the concept that a species cannot be summed up by broad aspects of their natures, cultures, and societies...and their genetic makeup.  It would be like trying to write an equation that encapsulates every aspect of what it is to be human and have every human say: yep, that's me.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Sometimes, I like to imagine the Reapers as some bizarre, tragic irony in which they somehow became the very thing they were meant to stop. That the Catalyst fails to calculate that it itself is a victim to the very same lack of understanding that apparently afflicts all Synthetics in the galaxy. It still isn't a very fitting ending, but does have a certain poetic ring to it.

[Armass81]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

The Catalyst has seen it on a smaller scale countless times (and by smaller scale I mean: not galaxy wide destruction). In fact, the fact that he saw it time and time again made him start the cycle! And the Catalyst was made by the Leviathan because it noticed this pattern as well.

You act as if the Geth are the first synthetics created by organics. And you also act as if a peace that has lasted for a few weeks (Geth-Guarian) will last forever, and is thus a retort against the Catalyst's view of the galaxy. Both are horrendously wrong. And then you act as if other organic races (in MEU still primitive) can't design a completely new Synthetic lifeform themselves... as if the danger comes from just the Geth.

Which smaller scale? Sure, the Leviathan had destructive wars against synthetics. But they weren't being wiped out.
And after the Leviathan, he could never have seen it happen, because he started the entire harvesting cycle with the genocide against the Leviathan. He just made this reasoning of the inevitibility of synthetics destroying organics himself. It is based on excessive logical reasoning within its own rational framework, but it has never been based on outside material evidence. Which makes sense, an AI doesn't need outside evidence to reach a "logical" conclusion.

Does it matter if the geth are not te first synthetics created by organics? There has never been an synthetic attempt at wiping out organic life before the geth either. Plus, I'm not referring to the Quarian-Geth peace treaty. I'm referring to the fact that the geth NEVER have attempted to wipe out organic life. The only dangerous geth were those that were hacked and reprogrammed by Sovereign, the Collectors and the other Reapers. The geth themselves have never been hostile to organic life as such, they were merely fanatically protective of their own territories because they believed organics wanted to destroy them (which is a logical fear, considering the massacre the Quarians tried to carry out among them).

The Heretics were never hacked, they joined Sovereign on their own accord as Legion explained, that why they left the other geth.

[Invisible Man]

Armass81 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

The Catalyst has seen it on a smaller scale countless times (and by smaller scale I mean: not galaxy wide destruction). In fact, the fact that he saw it time and time again made him start the cycle! And the Catalyst was made by the Leviathan because it noticed this pattern as well.

You act as if the Geth are the first synthetics created by organics. And you also act as if a peace that has lasted for a few weeks (Geth-Guarian) will last forever, and is thus a retort against the Catalyst's view of the galaxy. Both are horrendously wrong. And then you act as if other organic races (in MEU still primitive) can't design a completely new Synthetic lifeform themselves... as if the danger comes from just the Geth.

Which smaller scale? Sure, the Leviathan had destructive wars against synthetics. But they weren't being wiped out.
And after the Leviathan, he could never have seen it happen, because he started the entire harvesting cycle with the genocide against the Leviathan. He just made this reasoning of the inevitibility of synthetics destroying organics himself. It is based on excessive logical reasoning within its own rational framework, but it has never been based on outside material evidence. Which makes sense, an AI doesn't need outside evidence to reach a "logical" conclusion.

Does it matter if the geth are not te first synthetics created by organics? There has never been an synthetic attempt at wiping out organic life before the geth either. Plus, I'm not referring to the Quarian-Geth peace treaty. I'm referring to the fact that the geth NEVER have attempted to wipe out organic life. The only dangerous geth were those that were hacked and reprogrammed by Sovereign, the Collectors and the other Reapers. The geth themselves have never been hostile to organic life as such, they were merely fanatically protective of their own territories because they believed organics wanted to destroy them (which is a logical fear, considering the massacre the Quarians tried to carry out among them).

The Heretics were never hacked, they joined Sovereign on their own accord as Legion explained, that why they left the other geth.

I'd say that's an assumption, not a fact. an understandable, and logical assumption; but an assumption non-the-less.

[Armass81]

Invisible Man wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

The Catalyst has seen it on a smaller scale countless times (and by smaller scale I mean: not galaxy wide destruction). In fact, the fact that he saw it time and time again made him start the cycle! And the Catalyst was made by the Leviathan because it noticed this pattern as well.

You act as if the Geth are the first synthetics created by organics. And you also act as if a peace that has lasted for a few weeks (Geth-Guarian) will last forever, and is thus a retort against the Catalyst's view of the galaxy. Both are horrendously wrong. And then you act as if other organic races (in MEU still primitive) can't design a completely new Synthetic lifeform themselves... as if the danger comes from just the Geth.

Which smaller scale? Sure, the Leviathan had destructive wars against synthetics. But they weren't being wiped out.
And after the Leviathan, he could never have seen it happen, because he started the entire harvesting cycle with the genocide against the Leviathan. He just made this reasoning of the inevitibility of synthetics destroying organics himself. It is based on excessive logical reasoning within its own rational framework, but it has never been based on outside material evidence. Which makes sense, an AI doesn't need outside evidence to reach a "logical" conclusion.

Does it matter if the geth are not te first synthetics created by organics? There has never been an synthetic attempt at wiping out organic life before the geth either. Plus, I'm not referring to the Quarian-Geth peace treaty. I'm referring to the fact that the geth NEVER have attempted to wipe out organic life. The only dangerous geth were those that were hacked and reprogrammed by Sovereign, the Collectors and the other Reapers. The geth themselves have never been hostile to organic life as such, they were merely fanatically protective of their own territories because they believed organics wanted to destroy them (which is a logical fear, considering the massacre the Quarians tried to carry out among them).

The Heretics were never hacked, they joined Sovereign on their own accord as Legion explained, that why they left the other geth.

I'd say that's an assumption, not a fact. an understandable, and logical assumption; but an assumption non-the-less.

A direct quote from Legion in ME2: "Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the old machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us."

You see, they asked. They did it willingly on their part. Of course you can always claim that Legion is lying. But If its lying about this, what else could it lie about? After all most what we really know about the geth comes from it.

So if we are to take legion at its word, these geth did infact become hostile to organics, on their own accord.

Modifié par Armass81, 15 janvier 2014 - 11:21 .

[Daemul]

Invisible Man wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

The Catalyst has seen it on a smaller scale countless times (and by smaller scale I mean: not galaxy wide destruction). In fact, the fact that he saw it time and time again made him start the cycle! And the Catalyst was made by the Leviathan because it noticed this pattern as well.

You act as if the Geth are the first synthetics created by organics. And you also act as if a peace that has lasted for a few weeks (Geth-Guarian) will last forever, and is thus a retort against the Catalyst's view of the galaxy. Both are horrendously wrong. And then you act as if other organic races (in MEU still primitive) can't design a completely new Synthetic lifeform themselves... as if the danger comes from just the Geth.

Which smaller scale? Sure, the Leviathan had destructive wars against synthetics. But they weren't being wiped out.
And after the Leviathan, he could never have seen it happen, because he started the entire harvesting cycle with the genocide against the Leviathan. He just made this reasoning of the inevitibility of synthetics destroying organics himself. It is based on excessive logical reasoning within its own rational framework, but it has never been based on outside material evidence. Which makes sense, an AI doesn't need outside evidence to reach a "logical" conclusion.

Does it matter if the geth are not te first synthetics created by organics? There has never been an synthetic attempt at wiping out organic life before the geth either. Plus, I'm not referring to the Quarian-Geth peace treaty. I'm referring to the fact that the geth NEVER have attempted to wipe out organic life. The only dangerous geth were those that were hacked and reprogrammed by Sovereign, the Collectors and the other Reapers. The geth themselves have never been hostile to organic life as such, they were merely fanatically protective of their own territories because they believed organics wanted to destroy them (which is a logical fear, considering the massacre the Quarians tried to carry out among them).

The Heretics were never hacked, they joined Sovereign on their own accord as Legion explained, that why they left the other geth.

I'd say that's an assumption, not a fact. an understandable, and logical assumption; but an assumption non-the-less.

What? Legion tells you in ME2 that the Heretics left on their own accord. 

[von uber]

Comrade Wakizashi wrote...
Face it, bro. You're indoctrinated[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Psychevore wrote...

Nah.

FemShep has the answer.

[Nightwriter]

"The debate"? "Are they right"?

I don't know. That makes it sound like there's an argument between us and the Reapers as there might be between two people. There isn't.

According to what my peers would have me believe -- and my peers are the only available translators for Bioware's Message™ -- the Catalyst is a nonentity. It is a machine trying to solve a human problem. Or a sapient problem, I suppose you would say in this case. It's unfit for its task, and always was. It cannot understand ethics. It cannot understand the difference between human peach preserves and a living person in the context of its goal. It thinks if it saves the peach preserves it's done its job. You can only debate its logic if you agree to accept its premise that genetic data is the only thing worth saving in a life form. I guess if you wanted to, you could do that in the interests of purely academic debate, but in the context of "what's right?" The Reapers and Catalyst aren't even at the debate table. 

The issue with the ending is not that it makes me think, but rather that it negates thinking by revealing that there was never another mind on the other end of the phone line. There's nothing to do but feel disappointed and hang up. 

Modifié par Nightwriter, 15 janvier 2014 - 11:19 .