210 réponses à ce sujet

[R0gueHunt3R]

Navasha wrote...

Uh... NO. Please. I don't see any "Paragon" forcing the entire galaxy to conform to some twisted AI logic that in order for there to be peace and harmony, you must destroy all life as you know it and rewrite it so everything and everyone in the universe is homogenized into a single new type of life.

So much for diversity and cooperation...

Synthesis isn't even a choice a 'Renegade' would make. Its the choice a confused and defeatist personality would take... like Saren.

My sentiment exactly.

[rapscallioness]

Or, being a pure Paragon could be weakness when dealing w/the Catalyst. It knows your dominant alignment. It even greets you differently based on that alignment. The, "Wake up." vs. the "Why are you here."--(or something like that).

It could be playing a pure Paragon like a fiddle. Appealing to everything a pure Paragon would want. Telling Shep how Synth will solve everything, and no one will get hurt.

The Catalyst does prefer the Synth solution. It is just as possible it would try to manipulate the mind of an organic to get what it wants. Especially seeing as how it's been known to do that. The Catalyst and its Parents, the Leviathan. That's kinda their MO.

[Dubozz]

Synthesis is an abomination.

[rapscallioness]

StreetMagic wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

Or, being a pure Paragon could be weakness when dealing w/the Catalyst. It knows your dominant alignment. It even greets you differently based on that alignment. The, "Wake up." vs. the "Why are you here."--(or something like that).

That happens regardless of alignment. It only says "Why are you here?" with low EMS. Or so I think?

Other than that though, I agree. He doesn't say anything that appeals to Renegade.

Oh, is it low ems, then? I thought it was the alignment thing. Nvm, on that part then.

[ImaginaryMatter]

rapscallioness wrote...

Or, being a pure Paragon could be weakness when dealing w/the Catalyst. It knows your dominant alignment. It even greets you differently based on that alignment. The, "Wake up." vs. the "Why are you here."--(or something like that).

It could be playing a pure Paragon like a fiddle. Appealing to everything a pure Paragon would want. Telling Shep how Synth will solve everything, and no one will get hurt.

The Catalyst does prefer the Synth solution. It is just as possible it would try to manipulate the mind of an organic to get what it wants. Especially seeing as how it's been known to do that. The Catalyst and its Parents, the Leviathan. That's kinda their MO.

The Catalyst's mood depends on the EMS for some reason.

I doubt the Catalyst is being manipulative (it's just it being shoehorned in), if it really wanted Synthesis it could have just as easily left Shepard at the bottom of the elevator and bring up anything with 'Organic energy' to toss into the beam.

[rapscallioness]

But I thought Shep was "Special".

[Nightwriter]

You seem to be assigning the word "paragon" to your own personal conclusions about what is right. Just like lots of us do. Including Destroyers. They denounce Synthesis for the same reasons you denounce Destroy -- it "went against everything they stood for."

Personally, I don't see the point in labeling them at all. The P/R system is such a murky muddy pool of interpretation and messy ideology that I find it much better to simply judge choices based on their content and consequences.

And yes, Destroy kills the geth and EDI, but the ending sucks so what are ya gonna do. For most Destroyers it is a sacrifice they believe is necessary. I think the argument is something like "better to kill a few than commit mass rape on all."

We have only the Catalyst's word that the problem will recur. Deciding whether or not you believe the Catalyst is pivotal in regard to your position on the ending. When the Catalyst says the problem will recur, it's saying that we've made no difference, can never improve, and it's still inevitable that our robot friends will turn on us. A major appeal of Destroy -- at least for me -- is that it's the only one that even comes close to letting you say, "... Well f*** that."

[ImaginaryMatter]

rapscallioness wrote...

But I thought Shep was "Special".

Haha, maybe, I never really thought of him as special (after all he's just some meat head who got mind probed by an ancient alien artifact). However, I guess he's special in the sense that everyone around him is very 'unspecial' like those people in infomercials or kindergarteners.

[elitecom]

Does synthesis conform to the paragon morality?

Not really I believe. Considering that the renegade morality is akin to "the ends justify the means" I would place the synthesis ending as renegade if you believe the means are what the synthesis ending is promised to bring about, namely peace between synthetics and organics, by turning all life in the galaxy into a cyborg mixture of some sort. I find that very similar to the morality Battlestar Galactica tried to push through, that peace between humans and cylons will only occur if they mix together to form some spooky cyborg mix. Of course you destroy all organic life, all biodiversity is gone but you're supposed to have peace. Another analogy is to say that all the problems on Earth will be solved if all of humanity just mix together to form one brown race. Now even if you believe that, and I seriously doubt that'll fix anything, is it worth it? Is "peace and stability" so important that you have to destroy the uniqueness of all life to achieve it?

Perhaps I've digressed somewhat, but these are questions you've to ask yourself if you believe in the synthesis morality.

[mhmbaSR1]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

The problem with Synthesis I think mainly lies in what it does to Synthetics. According to the Catalyst they gain, "Full understanding of Organics." A lot of my problem with this statement could very well lie with how vague the it is (Oh boy, and it is very ambiguous). However, to me it seems to suggest that some mental paradigm within the AIs is changed (if somehow AIs develop in such away that eventually they rebel against Organics before Synthesis, they now develop in such away that they do not) and such change seems unethical and seems to go against the Paragon creed. Couple that with forcing a very large change upon the galaxy with very little comprehension of such an action's consequence (from Shepard's perspective) and Synthesis appears to be more of a Renegade option, as Shepard violates the choice of everyone in the galaxy to impose such a radical change to the very nature of life, even if the intention of that choice is well intended.

I think the true Paragon choice is Refusal out of all 4 endings, in my opinion, it is certainly the most idealistic.

P.S. I'm not assuming Paragon = Good, Renegade = Evil

like the above, can you say "synthesis = violation of the rights of every single sapient life form in the galaxy"?

I consider the renegade choices to be destroy and synthesis, and the only semi-paragon choice (and I say semi because its not that good either) to be paragon shepard control. I chose it because as a player that always does paragon, it is the only choice that makes sense. the purpose of the intelligence was to try and find a way to keep organics and synthetics from fighting. paragon shepard did that (without any help) and now the majority of the choices would screw that up! (admittedly synthesis doesn't, but it is a complete violation of free will) any fledgling organic/synthetic cultures could be guided by the mature symbiotic races that already exist. that way everything works, no wars break out and a balance is finally struck

as to refuse being the paragon choice, I never really did that because I didn't want all the races to die.

[rapscallioness]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

But I thought Shep was "Special".

Haha, maybe, I never really thought of him as special (after all he's just some meat head who got mind probed by an ancient alien artifact). However, I guess he's special in the sense that everyone around him is very 'unspecial' like those people in infomercials or kindergarteners.

No, Shep is special in the sense that Shep is the hero of the story.  So, the hero must have some special quality that they can do what others can't.

[ImaginaryMatter]

rapscallioness wrote...

No, Shep is special in the sense that Shep is the hero of the story.  So, the hero must have some special quality that they can do what others can't.

In ME1 he was special because of the Prothean beacon which depicted a horrific future that he felt compelled to stop. After that he became some all important puzzle piece in the story which was basically brought about because no one else could do their jobs and Shepard had to come and save them from their mistakes.

It was kind of nice back when he was just a normal, albeit a strong and charismatic leader, doing his best to save the rest. But eventually it just got rediculous how important he came for no real reason other than the fact that he was the main character.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:44 .

[rapscallioness]

True, but we're kinda talking about two diff things. I think you're talking in game, and I'm talking about the necessity of making the hero of the story seem special.

Some story tellers show this specialness better than others, but it is standard for a hero's story.

So, it could not have been just any organic thrown into the Synth mix to make Synth. It had to be Shep because it was Shep's story.

I think the real question is whether, or not, the Catalyst would/could be manipulative. If so, then a pure Paragon could be very easily manipulated with the lure of Synthesis.

edit: I see where you edited your post. Yeah, I did like that strong, charismatic leader the best, tbh.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 12 janvier 2014 - 11:47 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

rapscallioness wrote...

True, but we're kinda talking about two diff things. I think you're talking in game, and I'm talking about the necessity of making the hero of the story seem special.

Some story tellers show this specialness better than others, but it is standard for a hero's story.

So, it could not have been just any organic thrown into the Synth mix to make Synth. It had to be Shep because it was Shep's story.

I think the real question is whether, or not, the Catalyst would/could be manipulative. If so, then a pure Paragon could be very easily manipulated with the lure of Synthesis.

I think we are too...

I think it's time for a nap.

[rapscallioness]

Lol! ImaginaryMatter. I should nap, too, but...

Just to reiterate on my edit, I agree w/liking the strong, charismatic Shep the best.

[Excella Gionne]

Nothing is cannoned!

[Obadiah]

OP, I'd look at this way in general terms, and I say that just because player motivation can really affect how you look at these endings:

Destroy - Kill enemy and blow away hostage: this is clearly Renegade

Control (Paragon) - Take control of enemy powers and continue protecting galaxy: This is obviously Paragon
Control (Renegade) - Take control of enemy powers and create new empire: This is obviously Renegade

Synthesis - Change/improve/upgrade everyone to make them better in a completely unexpected manner. It is a smewhat radical step, and seems sort of between Paragon and Renegade

Modifié par Obadiah, 13 janvier 2014 - 01:02 .

[dreamgazer]

Synthesis is Paragon Shepards canon ending.

[Br3admax]

Obadiah wrote...

OP, I'd look at this way in general terms, and I say that just because player motivation can really affect how you look at these endings:

Destroy - Kill enemy and blow away hostage: this is clearly Renegade

Anderson is the most Renegade.

Control (Paragon) - Take control of enemy powers and continue protecting galaxy: This is obviously Paragon
Control (Renegade) - Take control of enemy powers and create new empire: This is obviously Renegade

Not debateable, although I think wanting to Control the Reapers is never shown to be Paragon in anyway, except for at the last thrity seconds.

Synthesis - Change/improve/upgrade everyone to make them better in a completely unexpected manner and achieve a level of galactic peace and stability: Seems sort of between Paragon and Renegade

DNA rape sounds all Renegade to me. 

Also consider what Paragon and Renegade actually mean. They don't mean Good vs. Bad.. 

[Obadiah]

Br3ad wrote...
...
DNA rape sounds all Renegade to me. 
...

And so long as you keep characterizing it in that fashion it will remain that way in your head.

[MrMrPendragon]

I only chose synthesis once, just for kicks. Then I reloaded and went for Destroy for the billionth time.

For some reason, I feel really angry at the Catalyst whenever he says the line

"Organics seek perfection through technology. Synthetics seek perfection through understanding"

The Catalyst is full of it. He doesn't even have the capacity to understand, yet he decided the fate of countless lives for so long. He created a solution for both organics and synthetics even though he could only see the problem through the perspective of synthetics, and not both.

Saying that, I'm not too convinced that "synthesis is inevitable". Since the Catalyst feels so confident in saying such a big conclusion, you would assume that this guy knows a thing or two about creating a better future for organics , and yet did a ****** poor job of "preserving life at all cost".

Anyway, I never trusted the Catalyst because of all the screw ups he did with the Reapers.

I also felt like choosing Synthesis would make me similar to the Catalyst, in the sense that we've both made decisions that's not ours to make. I can't just choose to combine every organic with synthetics. Synthesis presented the biggest change ----- change that not everyone was ready for. I mean he said it himself, "it's not something that can be forced ". Well what makes him think we're ready now? Shepard may be ready. What about the other people? Quarians, Asari, Krogan, even the Yahg and all the non-spaceflight species. He was wrong about his original solution, seeing as Shepard actually made it and went face to face with him, so why would he be correct now?

Everyone at this point in the game was willing to sacrifice anything to end the Reapers, including Shepard.  Everyone knew that some of them had to make the ultimate sacrifice, that's what being a soldier was to them. So I went with Destroy.

Modifié par ArcherTactlenecks, 13 janvier 2014 - 01:38 .

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Synthesis was an intriguing idea, and has merits, from a sci fi point of view.

You're still going to get roasted alive for defending it, though. It's the ending that offends people the most, and I have yet to see anyone successfully start a reasonable discussion about it without being declared all kinds of horrible nasty things.

Which is a shame, really. Good luck.