210 réponses à ce sujet

[DonnyT]

Invisible Man wrote...

you mean that how does it keep synthetics form butchering organics? as the cycles are the catalyst's construct, the cycles are not the continuing systematic slaughter of organics by other non-reaper synthetics. it's fairly simple, lifeforms (even synthetic ones) don't seek war simply for the sake of war itself. there are always reasons behind it. and usually instigated at some point by a lack of understanding. not always, but from what I can tell most of the time (IMHO). I'm not talking about governments or leaders, I'm talking about the general population here. 

I think that is overly simplistic.  Wars are fought mostly over resources or beliefs.  If beliefs don't change, simple understanding is not a guarantee that there would not be conflict.  This is the hole in synthesis, it either goes too far, or it does not do what it claims to do.

[Invisible Man]

@ donnyt
I know I oversimplified it, as it was more an example as opposed to a full step by step theory, that would have taken too much time and effort. I was addressing why synthetics wouldn't automatically attack organics, assuming they attacked organics in the past without a serous cause, or simply because they felt like it. (I know that's an oversimplification too)

---edit
I guess I should clarify. as I'm still half asleep. and I guess I did go a tad too far, saying most wars are caused by a lack of understanding, that lack just seems to give the justification to the warring factions in some conflicts, and promoted the common disregard for the opposing factions lives, which is sometimes required to convince your average person to pick up a rifle to shoot someone. but I'm getting off topic, in regards to organic/synthetic conflict, ok never mind... I'm going to be forced to make statements off of assumptions abut organic & synthetic conflict in mass effect, which we (or I) really don't know enough about.

Modifié par Invisible Man, 15 janvier 2014 - 07:17 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

DonnyT wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

I don't think these changes just suddenly happen overnight. Maybe they do for the Reapers once the Catalyst's control is removed, but for somebody like, say, Wreav, I think his aggression would be tempered by being able to communicate with and understand other species more easily and learning not to see them as enemies. (Though as I've said, my own preferred interpretation is that the "upgrades" are inactive at first anyway and nobody is forced to activate them if they don't want to.)

If that were the case, then synthesis doesn't break the "inevitable" cycle of organics getting killed off by synthetics.  Now I know we both agree this cycle doesn't necessarily exist, but the catalyst says synthesis will break this cycle.  To me that means immeadiate and drastic changes to who people are.  This is why I didn't even consider sythesis as an option.  There are simply too many holes in its potential outcomes.  You are in essense, making everyone into reapers, rather than having reapers consume everyone.  You can't say that is more humane.

Either it does what the catalyst says, and is therefore not humane.  Or the catalyst is wrong and you have absolutely no idea what consequences you are unleashing on the galaxy.  How a paragon could choose that is beyond me.

All I'd say to that is that the Catalyst can be wrong about the cycle and still have an accurate picture of what would stop it. The synthetic-organic wars that the Catalyst witnessed in the past would not have started overnight, so why would a solution to prevent them have to take effect overnight? Even if just a fraction of the current population used the synthesis upgrades and started changing their attitudes as a result, they would in turn have influence upon those who don't implement the upgrades or don't change their attitudes as quickly. Eventually you'd have a fairly wide consensus against the necessity of organic-synthetic conflict, and if a few holdout organics tried to start one or provoke the synthetics, the other organics would stop them before it got out of hand.

I understand your argument, I just don't think it's the only way to interpret what happens after Synthesis. And anyway, a lot of the ending slides that show what the ex-squadmates and others are up to after the war are the same for Synthesis as they are for Destroy or Control - why would that be the case if Synthesis drastically and suddenly changes people's personalities?

[Comrade Wakizashi]

AlanC9 wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Isn't this a problem with the Paragon concept itself? There's no reason the universe should let you achieve a good result by doing the "right thing" in every single circumstance.

The rest of the series pretty much did that.

Mostly, yeah. It shouldn't have. Renegade options often turned out to just be wrong. Paragon options should be wrong sometimes too.

Good point. I busted myself a few times of just choosing Paragon options even if they did not fit what I would actually say or do, just because I knew it would probably be the best option for the course of the game. Which of course isn't good if you're trying to play from first person point of view.

[sevalaricgirl]

I really like how some people think that the reapers don't lie. EDI said she could lie and would lie. So the Reapers are trying to convince Shepard and really the paragon choice is that they are machines, organics are living and breathing. Organics live, reapers, Geth and EDI die. Yes there are casualties but there are casualties in every war but the organics won't have to fear reapers again and they can rebuild. That is the paragon choice. Not every paragon thinks that synthetics are anything different than machines just like your computer. You like it but when you leave, you turn it off and if it was killing people, you wouldn't hesitate to turn it off.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

All endings are versions of a "reaper off" buttons. Pick one. I've got Shepard who is a knignt in sour armor here, and all she wants is for this thing to be over so she can go home and be with Liara again. Which is she going to pick?

[Almostfaceman]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
why would that be the case if Synthesis drastically and suddenly changes people's personalities?

If Synthesis doesn't change personalities, what's the point of Synthesis?

[von uber]

"You did good, child. You did good. I'm proud of you."
"Ha.. yeah... erm... what do you think about the colour green?"

For me this is one of the reasons I don't understand the choice of Synthesis. It just goes against, well, everything anybody you have fought alongside and trusted wanted.

[AlanC9]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I really like how some people think that the reapers don't lie. EDI said she could lie and would lie. So the Reapers are trying to convince Shepard and really the paragon choice is that they are machines, organics are living and breathing. Organics live, reapers, Geth and EDI die. Yes there are casualties but there are casualties in every war but the organics won't have to fear reapers again and they can rebuild. That is the paragon choice. Not every paragon thinks that synthetics are anything different than machines just like your computer. You like it but when you leave, you turn it off and if it was killing people, you wouldn't hesitate to turn it off.

 
The paragon choice is genocide because synthetics are subhuman? I don't have a problem with the outright racism of the choice, but that's never been what paragons were about.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 janvier 2014 - 08:27 .

[AlanC9]

Almostfaceman wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
why would that be the case if Synthesis drastically and suddenly changes people's personalities?

If Synthesis doesn't change personalities, what's the point of Synthesis?

To upgrade organics to the point where they can compete with synthetics. Nobody ever said it did anything else.

It sounds like synthetic minds are changed, though.

[Luth0rHuss]

This thread made me think of the quote from the Presidium Groundskeeper in ME2 "Everything would be so much simpler if we all had the same DNA, but noo, the universe loves diversity"